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Balkanisation of the United States 「Yes or No?」

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Can we save the United States or should we Balkanise it?

Yes, it can be saved- Through radical political reforms such as centralising power to the central government, and giving more equal representation to all areas
74
28%
Yes, it can be saved- By keeping the status quo
50
19%
Yes, it can be saved- Through radical political reforms such as giving each state more power
52
20%
No, it cannot be saved - Separate the United States into several countries based on regions
34
13%
No, it cannot be saved- Balkanise the United States into many countries based on states
21
8%
Other Yes (Please describe)
19
7%
Other No (Please describe)
11
4%
 
Total votes : 261

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Albionist Great Britain
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Postby Albionist Great Britain » Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:57 am

La xinga wrote:
The Nover Thura wrote:
Okay. But what about the founding fathers. They were racist and owned slaves. They did horrible things and people worship them. Would it be better is if America was made new with founders that are not racist?

Who really cares, probably every country in Europe was founded by a dude who didn't think Black people and White people were equal.


Eh, it wasn’t so much white v black, it was much more extensive than that. There wasn’t any idea AFAIK of a ‘white’ identity anywhere in Europe up until Americans exported it. Even today there’s less of a ‘white’ idea than there is in the USA. People were just plainly more exclusive back then, religiously and in ethnicity. As well IIRC the whole racial inferiority more came with the empires and is relatively recent to better justify European supremacy [so the statement you made is incorrect IMO, but I agree that racism in America’s roots isn’t special].
Last edited by Albionist Great Britain on Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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New Visayan Islands
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Postby New Visayan Islands » Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:20 am

Theberstan wrote:
Christian Confederation wrote:No. If the Election starts a Civil war we'll probably have a name change to the Conservative States of America.

Yes who’ll win? The people with AR-15s or the people who cannot decide what bathroom to use?

As written, this statement attacks the LGBT+ community, so take a *** warning for trolling. ***

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:20 am

The Nover Thura wrote:
Kiu Ghesik wrote:It is removed. The lines were preserved for posterity, the amendments supersede the text in the Constitution's function.


Okay. But what about the founding fathers. They were racist and owned slaves. They did horrible things and people worship them. Would it be better is if America was made new with founders that are not racist?


We don't get to choose who our founders are anymore than we get to choose who our parents are.

The best we can do is recognize the good and the bad they do, and live with that.
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-Ocelot-
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Postby -Ocelot- » Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:41 am

How much anti-american propaganda can this forum take before imploding out of shame? How demoralized and brainwashed are Americans to even suggest the fragmentation of their own country?

There are countless countries in the world that are way worse than the US in these matters. China is rounding up and killing minorities. Russia has been torturing members of the LGBT community since forever. Many countries across the world still allow slavery, oppressions of various minorities, tolerate rape to some degree etc. Yet you never see any threads about these countries because it would most likely not even allowed here.

My opinion on the OP is this: I am not going to partake in this demoralization effort, at least until equal attention is given to the atrocities committed by other influential countries, such as Russia, China, Saudi Arabia etc.

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Empirical Switzerland
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Postby Empirical Switzerland » Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:42 am

-Ocelot- wrote:How much anti-american propaganda can this forum take before imploding out of shame? How demoralized and brainwashed are Americans to even suggest the fragmentation of their own country?

There are countless countries in the world that are way worse than the US in these matters. China is rounding up and killing minorities. Russia has been torturing members of the LGBT community since forever. Many countries across the world still allow slavery, oppressions of various minorities, tolerate rape to some degree etc. Yet you never see any threads about these countries because it would most likely not even allowed here.

My opinion on the OP is this: I am not going to partake in this demoralization effort, at least until equal attention is given to the atrocities committed by other influential countries, such as Russia, China, Saudi Arabia etc.

This thread maker isn't American, they don't even speak English as a first language.
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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:46 am

Oooh, spicy. This thread's looking fun already.

*sits down with a lawn chair and popcorn*

For my own part, nah. The USA's hella flawed, and deserves a full overhaul of its political system (I mean, seriously, no universal healthcare? During a pandemic?), but not complete abolishment. America and Americans are cool.
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:49 am

-Ocelot- wrote:How much anti-american propaganda can this forum take before imploding out of shame? How demoralized and brainwashed are Americans to even suggest the fragmentation of their own country?

There are countless countries in the world that are way worse than the US in these matters. China is rounding up and killing minorities. Russia has been torturing members of the LGBT community since forever. Many countries across the world still allow slavery, oppressions of various minorities, tolerate rape to some degree etc. Yet you never see any threads about these countries because it would most likely not even allowed here.

There was a thread about whether China should exist quite recently.

My opinion on the OP is this: I am not going to partake in this demoralization effort, at least until equal attention is given to the atrocities committed by other influential countries, such as Russia, China, Saudi Arabia etc.

You know, during the Cold War, the Soviet Union would use more or less this reasoning to deflect criticism from the US. The US points out that the Soviets had done something terrible, the Soviets respond "А у вас негров линчуют". "And you are lynching Negroes".
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Resilient Acceleration
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Postby Resilient Acceleration » Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:50 am

The Nover Thura wrote:
Kiu Ghesik wrote:It is removed. The lines were preserved for posterity, the amendments supersede the text in the Constitution's function.


Okay. But what about the founding fathers. They were racist and owned slaves. They did horrible things and people worship them. Would it be better is if America was made new with founders that are not racist?

My founding father was (in his later stages) an incompetent, megalomaniacal dictator with nine wives (one of them is a honeytrap sent by a Japanese corporation looking to ease investment laws), whose rule ended with a 600% inflation and potentially the worst genocide in the history of Southeast Asia. Strangely, we also don't think that our state should be abolished. I wonder why.
Last edited by Resilient Acceleration on Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Torisakia
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Postby Torisakia » Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:56 am

Yes please. I can't see what good could come from its continued existence.
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Empirical Switzerland
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Postby Empirical Switzerland » Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:58 am

Torisakia wrote:Yes please. I can't see what good could come from its continued existence.

Uhh, maybe international foreign aid to poor countries, NATO, Having a strong military that protects about 67 nations, and fighting totalitarianism.
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Whitemore
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Postby Whitemore » Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:59 am

Empirical Switzerland wrote:
Torisakia wrote:Yes please. I can't see what good could come from its continued existence.

Uhh, maybe international foreign aid to poor countries, NATO, Having a strong military that protects about 67 nations, and fighting totalitarianism.


>Fighting Totalitarianism despite having a wide history of propping up dictatorships and overthrowing Elected Governments.
Last edited by Whitemore on Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:00 am

La xinga wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:Oh please, humans have always judged past humans by the values of the then present day humans.

And we shouldn't.

Do you propose then that we shouldn't just people in the past for their actions, or that we may only judge them by their own standards? What about when other people's standards at the time disagree with what they did (for instance, I'm sure basically all slaves would have said slavery is wrong, as would anyone subject to racism say that racism is bad).
Zveztown wrote:
La xinga wrote:And we shouldn't.

Agreed. As odd as it might seem to others, our modern standards are much different than standards from the 1850's. It doesn't make it okay by any means, but it's the past, not the present.

Who is this we that we're judging by?

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Empirical Switzerland
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Postby Empirical Switzerland » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:01 am

Whitemore wrote:
Empirical Switzerland wrote:Uhh, maybe international foreign aid to poor countries, NATO, Having a strong military that protects about 67 nations, and fighting totalitarianism.


>Fighting Totalitarianism despite having a wide history of propping up dictatorships and overthrowing Elected Governments.

Well, to be frank this is true, but we don't continue it. We stopped doing it.
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Torisakia
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Postby Torisakia » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:01 am

Empirical Switzerland wrote:
Torisakia wrote:Yes please. I can't see what good could come from its continued existence.

Uhh, maybe international foreign aid to poor countries, NATO, Having a strong military that protects about 67 nations, and fighting totalitarianism.

There's plenty of other, better countries that can do that.
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Whitemore
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Postby Whitemore » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:02 am

Empirical Switzerland wrote:
Whitemore wrote:
>Fighting Totalitarianism despite having a wide history of propping up dictatorships and overthrowing Elected Governments.

Well, to be frank this is true, but we don't continue it. We stopped doing it.


Sadly not true, we continue to prop up Dictatorships. Saudi Arabia comes to mind easily.
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Empirical Switzerland
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Postby Empirical Switzerland » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:02 am

Torisakia wrote:
Empirical Switzerland wrote:Uhh, maybe international foreign aid to poor countries, NATO, Having a strong military that protects about 67 nations, and fighting totalitarianism.

There's plenty of other, better countries that can do that.

Name one country that has a better military than the United States and protects 67 nations.
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Torisakia
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Postby Torisakia » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:03 am

Empirical Switzerland wrote:
Torisakia wrote:There's plenty of other, better countries that can do that.

Name one country that has a better military than the United States and protects 67 nations.

I mean I'm certain Yemen could do it. Might take some effort, but anything's possible.

I'm just anti-American, if you couldn't tell.
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Empirical Switzerland
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Postby Empirical Switzerland » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:05 am

Torisakia wrote:
Empirical Switzerland wrote:Name one country that has a better military than the United States and protects 67 nations.

I mean I'm certain Yemen could do it. Might take some effort, but anything's possible.

I'm just anti-American, if you couldn't tell.

Sure, whatever. I mean if you are going to say anything's possible you can write anything.

Okay, but why are you anti-American?
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Cczechiozvixalia
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Postby Cczechiozvixalia » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:05 am

The Nover Thura wrote:The United States is supposed to be the land of freedom, justice and equality. At least, that is what we are all taught. Reality is far different as the USA is plague by racism, homophobia, class inequality and oppression of minorities. A lot of people defend this horror as patriotism. This is not surprising since America was literally founded by a bunch of old aristocrat who were racist slave owners. And America largely reflect this with its dark history and ongoing oppression of the people.

But today, people are starting to see this. People are demanding change but the reactionaries are defend racism as patriotism because of the constitution and the founding fathers. So my question to you is, would it be good idea to abolish the United States and replace it with a new country. A new country with no dark history, no racist founders, and a constitution that guarantee freedom and equality for all.

I think this is good idea. It can be a America for all people where racism is not patriotic, where there is no dark history and the first president is not a slave owner. It could be an example that can lead to a better world for all, I think.

What are your thought?




erasing history doesn't erase the problem, No, but the Government should change, it should entirely support the change and correct its mistakes, it needs to realize it has problems and correct them, if not, and the Government of the US keeps its current patterns and tries to continue its train of problems and issues it becomes the role of the people to stand up for what the Government claims to hold which is political freedom and the ability to change via vote and fix the US, by force even if they must.
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Torisakia
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Postby Torisakia » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:07 am

Empirical Switzerland wrote:Okay, but why are you anti-American?

My feelings can be illustrated by this video.

tl;dr broken election system, uber racism that the government refuses to address, ever increasing debt, bad healthcare, the list goes on.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:08 am

Empirical Switzerland wrote:
Torisakia wrote:There's plenty of other, better countries that can do that.

Name one country that has a better military than the United States and protects 67 nations.

America's military doesn't protect any other nations. It doesn't even protect America. It protects America's economic and political interests, as determined by America's government.
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Empirical Switzerland
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Postby Empirical Switzerland » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:10 am

Ifreann wrote:
Empirical Switzerland wrote:Name one country that has a better military than the United States and protects 67 nations.

America's military doesn't protect any other nations. It doesn't even protect America. It protects America's economic and political interests, as determined by America's government.

I am trying to not be rude and be civil, so I just want to know why you think that America only protects it's interests. Sure, it does a lot of the time. But every country should be expected to do that, also, America doesn't use it's military only for that, but to protect it's friends.
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Langenia
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Postby Langenia » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:10 am

Heck no. I am a fervent nationalist and fervently against the enemies of America, be they state actors, non-state actors, or social issues. This is why I don't like Trump, who doesn't stand up to these enemies.
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-Ocelot-
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Postby -Ocelot- » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:13 am

Ifreann wrote:
Empirical Switzerland wrote:Name one country that has a better military than the United States and protects 67 nations.

America's military doesn't protect any other nations. It doesn't even protect America. It protects America's economic and political interests, as determined by America's government.


I live in a country that is being protected by America. Being a NATO ally literally prevents our neighbors from smashing us into pieces. Maybe you are too privileged to understand how defensive alliances impact smaller countries, especially vulnerable countries in eastern Europe.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:28 am

Empirical Switzerland wrote:
Ifreann wrote:America's military doesn't protect any other nations. It doesn't even protect America. It protects America's economic and political interests, as determined by America's government.

I am trying to not be rude and be civil, so I just want to know why you think that America only protects it's interests. Sure, it does a lot of the time. But every country should be expected to do that, also, America doesn't use it's military only for that, but to protect it's friends.

Just look at what America does with its military. Sends them off to the far side of the world to invade nations that were never realistically a threat to the actual physical safety of the American people. The actual threats to the physical safety of Americans? Largely ignored. The military has considered climate change to be a threat to American national security for several years now, but they're being used to secure more oil to burn.

And I don't know what friends you think America is protecting. America's military bases in Europe aren't there because America has a deep and abiding love of the people of Europe, it's because Europe is a great place from which to launch nukes at Moscow.
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You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

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