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Balkanisation of the United States 「Yes or No?」

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Can we save the United States or should we Balkanise it?

Yes, it can be saved- Through radical political reforms such as centralising power to the central government, and giving more equal representation to all areas
74
28%
Yes, it can be saved- By keeping the status quo
50
19%
Yes, it can be saved- Through radical political reforms such as giving each state more power
52
20%
No, it cannot be saved - Separate the United States into several countries based on regions
34
13%
No, it cannot be saved- Balkanise the United States into many countries based on states
21
8%
Other Yes (Please describe)
19
7%
Other No (Please describe)
11
4%
 
Total votes : 261

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Kiu Ghesik
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Posts: 8167
Founded: Aug 25, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kiu Ghesik » Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:49 pm

The Two Jerseys wrote:I wish I had a time machine so that I could go back and prevent this thread from giving me brain cancer.

And then everyone clapped.
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Bombadil
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:49 pm

Zordila wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
Well quite.. take a read of this - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... a-platform


Honestly, I didn't think of that. My IQ is probably lower than 100. :(


The fact you even bothered to read it places you far above average here - pat yourself on the back.

The point is, and what I take from the OP if poorly expressed, is that to simply sit back on the 'Founding Fathers' and the 'Constitution' as a reason not to change is silly, the world has greatly changed since then and although the Constitution is a remarkable document for its time.. any document can be twisted and manipulated to bad ends, and a form of renewal should be undertaken.

Whether it's possible in these times I doubt it highly, and so I agree that the issues of electoral funding needs to be dealt with - I think a reconstruction of police criteria and training should be done, and then far greater transparency in government per the linked article should be considered.

I just don't know if that is piecemeal or whether you could pull it all off in what I'd call The Great Renewal Project. Or, given The Birth of a Nation was a fairly racist film, and to bring the Christian right along symbolically a little, The Great Rebirth of a Nation.
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Hardscrabbel
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Founded: Oct 04, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Hardscrabbel » Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:49 pm

Perhaps we should be thankful for what we have. I mean, Washington ain’t that bad, at least it wasn’t Jefferson.

And not like I’m trying to put down the Brits here but it not like William of Normandy was exactly a saint either. He kinda enslaved all of the Anglo-Saxons in England. And like I said, not dissing the Brits, William was quite the historical figure but he just lived in a dark time where war was a way of life. Genghis Khan, Chancellor Bismarck, Shaka of the Zulus every leader has a dark side

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Picairn
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Founded: Feb 21, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Picairn » Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:53 pm

How, exactly, are you going to abolish the US and replace it with something better? Reactionaries and idiots don't magically disappear when you abolish the entire country.
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Theberstan
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Founded: Jul 09, 2020
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Postby Theberstan » Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:54 pm

Saiyan Galactic Empire wrote:
Theberstan wrote:Bigotry and homophobia isn’t what’s tearing the US apart... it’s basic media misinformation and radical political parties. Honestly I wish the US was more then a 2 party system. Make room for other parties for God’s sake. And when I say radical I mean both sides, but far left more then ever. In my opinion politics is like a pendulum. We’re going to swing back the moderate then conservative then probably alt-right.


It's funny because the US is one of the most tolerant nations in the world. If someone is gonna cry about bigotry and racism they should do it in Riyadh or Pakistan not here in the USA where we were one if the first countries to legalize gay marriage and we don't treat immigrants like foreigners.


Exactly... far left will argue immensely about the immigration thing, but they honestly think they need to let everyone in the country, including rapists, murderers, and the such. We don’t push away imagrants. We want them to come in to correct way as documented.

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Luziyca
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Luziyca » Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:54 pm

While I would be one of the first to support tearing the current structure down to the ground in favor of a more social democratic state, I feel just outright abolishing America, even if I feel it would be good for the world, given America's crappy foreign policy compared to China's foreign policy, would fuck over so many people, and cause quite a bit of turmoil.
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Posts: 14115
Founded: Dec 04, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:55 pm

The Imperial Warglorian Empire wrote:Wanna toss my hat in the ring, even for a single post.

The OP says that the US does not support "guarantee freedom and equality for all," and that a new nation should be formed that does. I would argue, however, that the US is doing that, as in guaranteeing freedom and equality for all.

The truth of the matter is that guaranteeing freedom and equality for everybody doesn't just mean freedom and equality for minority races or people with good opinions, but also those with bad opinions. Antifa, Neo-Nazis, the KKK, all of them exist in the US because it guarantees the rights and freedoms of its population to express themselves freely and disagree with the opinions of others. Now, I completely acknowledge that these organisations are vile and violent and that the acts of violence and vandalism these organisations commit are illegal, but the simple right for these people to express and espouse these ideas is protected under the Constitution.

Now you might say "These people are terrible, so we should repress them and get rid of them," I agree with the former, but not so much with the latter. See, if a government has the right to repress the rights of a single sect of the population, even if that sect is full of terrible people....what's to stop the government from oppressing the rest of the population? From taking away their rights? From becoming a totalitarian regime? The second that the government is given the legal right to illegalise and actively repress the activities or ideas of a group (no matter how terrible they are), then they have the legal justification to illegalise and repress any people or ideas that they don't like.

And then what happens to those "guaranteed freedoms and equality?" POOF, gone.

The cons of complete guaranteed freedom and equality for all are that it doesn't just guarantee the rights of those who deserve them, but also those of really hateful and terrible people. But it's that or giving the government the ability to repress EVERYONE.


You're defining freedom by the enumerated rights of the Constitution. Which is a rather circular argument.

The right to take whatever drugs you want, is not protected by the Constitution. It is widely denied, by state and Federal governments.

The right to a good wage for everyone who works 40 hours a week, is not mentioned in the Constitution. So you don't get that either. This is NOT oppression by government, it's more government inaction enabling the oppression of citizens by each other. Consider historical slavery: it was economically driven, it was private sector, and only enforced by government to legitimize an economic relationship favored by rich land-owners.

Free speech is most important in its political aspect. You mentioned Nazis, fair enough. But the politically extreme forms of speech actually attract more attention than mainstream partisan speech, which itself attracts more attention that independent and innovative political thought. The new media have recreated "bullhorn" speech, where individual voices are amplified by being retweeted or published, and the vast majority of people have no use for the freedom of speech. They just won't be heard under the massive amount of speech that gets pumped out every day.

Modern speech does not serve political debate very well. There's actually an argument for more equal speech, by toning down the loudest voices.
Last edited by Nobel Hobos 2 on Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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VlaRiSsiA
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Posts: 241
Founded: Oct 16, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby VlaRiSsiA » Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:56 pm

The Imperial Warglorian Empire wrote:Wanna toss my hat in the ring, even for a single post.

The OP says that the US does not support "guarantee freedom and equality for all," and that a new nation should be formed that does. I would argue, however, that the US is doing that, as in guaranteeing freedom and equality for all.

The truth of the matter is that guaranteeing freedom and equality for everybody doesn't just mean freedom and equality for minority races or people with good opinions, but also those with bad opinions. Antifa, Neo-Nazis, the KKK, all of them exist in the US because it guarantees the rights and freedoms of its population to express themselves freely and disagree with the opinions of others. Now, I completely acknowledge that these organisations are vile and violent and that the acts of violence and vandalism these organisations commit are illegal, but the simple right for these people to express and espouse these ideas is protected under the Constitution.

Now you might say "These people are terrible, so we should repress them and get rid of them," I agree with the former, but not so much with the latter. See, if a government has the right to repress the rights of a single sect of the population, even if that sect is full of terrible people....what's to stop the government from oppressing the rest of the population? From taking away their rights? From becoming a totalitarian regime? The second that the government is given the legal right to illegalise and actively repress the activities or ideas of a group (no matter how terrible they are), then they have the legal justification to illegalise and repress any people or ideas that they don't like.

And then what happens to those "guaranteed freedoms and equality?" POOF, gone.

The cons of complete guaranteed freedom and equality for all are that it doesn't just guarantee the rights of those who deserve them, but also those of really hateful and terrible people. But it's that or giving the government the ability to repress EVERYONE.

While I disagree about the statement that the US government guarantees complete freedom and equality for all(since the CIA and NSA hinder both of those human rights), I 100% agree that thinking it is the ‘most oppressive society’ is plain dumb. Wanting the government to suppress opposing beliefs is dangerous since the state scary as it is, would be far more terrifying if given unchecked powers of censorship. My main criticisms of the US are of it’s Foreign Policy, not as much its domestic ones(though still it’s domestic politics and system is a wild ride). I am more concerned about how the atrocities the CIA did in Operation Condor than this argument about the 13th amendment. People like OP, who are so close minded and only focus on things of the past and not anything else, add to the growing apathy towards the US’ current issues as well as international crimes against humanity.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:59 pm

VlaRiSsiA wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:How do you "abolish" a country?

M A G I C


Is that what war crimes are called nowadays?
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Resilient Acceleration
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Founded: Sep 23, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Resilient Acceleration » Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:03 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Zordila wrote:
And how do we do that, without transparency or good law enforcement?


Well quite.. take a read of this - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... a-platform

OK but like what? Right now I just entered college taking computer science, and this will fix so much things that I'm starting to consider the possibility of starting one in my own country if I have the apparent chance.

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Picairn
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Picairn » Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:06 pm

I am scrolling the first pages of this thread and the fact that the OP insisted on the US being bad is because the US Constitution has the word "slavery" in it despite not reading the 13th and 14th Amendments is absolutely giving me a hearty laugh. :rofl:
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Kiu Ghesik
Powerbroker
 
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Founded: Aug 25, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kiu Ghesik » Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:07 pm

Picairn wrote:I am scrolling the first pages of this thread and the fact that the OP insisted on the US being bad is because the US Constitution has the word "slavery" in it despite not reading the 13th and 14th Amendments is absolutely giving me a hearty laugh. :rofl:

This thread tends to do that. Definitely going to make a note to read it when I'm feeling down in the future.
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Empirical Switzerland
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Ex-Nation

Postby Empirical Switzerland » Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:09 pm

Kiu Ghesik wrote:
Picairn wrote:I am scrolling the first pages of this thread and the fact that the OP insisted on the US being bad is because the US Constitution has the word "slavery" in it despite not reading the 13th and 14th Amendments is absolutely giving me a hearty laugh. :rofl:

This thread tends to do that. Definitely going to make a note to read it when I'm feeling down in the future.

Lol, yep.
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Bombadil
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Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:11 pm

Resilient Acceleration wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
Well quite.. take a read of this - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... a-platform

OK but like what? Right now I just entered college taking computer science, and this will fix so much things that I'm starting to consider the possibility of starting one in my own country if I have the apparent chance.


Good luck.

Politics is a little like education in that there's so much pushback to any changes it's difficult to get things done, I feel it's remarkable of Taiwan to react to demonstrations in this way and it puts it into stark contrast with HK for me..

However we have tools and technology to radically change how we do politics but the Constitution is so holy to even suggest change is met with outrageous reaction.
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Panbye
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Aug 13, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Panbye » Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:12 pm

The Nover Thura wrote:The United States is supposed to be the land of freedom, justice and equality. At least, that is what we are all taught. Reality is far different as the USA is plague by racism, homophobia, class inequality and oppression of minorities. A lot of people defend this horror as patriotism. This is not surprising since America was literally founded by a bunch of old aristocrat who were racist slave owners. And America largely reflect this with its dark history and ongoing oppression of the people.

But today, people are starting to see this. People are demanding change but the reactionaries are defend racism as patriotism because of the constitution and the founding fathers. So my question to you is, would it be good idea to abolish the United States and replace it with a new country. A new country with no dark history, no racist founders, and a constitution that guarantee freedom and equality for all.

I think this is good idea. It can be a America for all people where racism is not patriotic, where there is no dark history and the first president is not a slave owner. It could be an example that can lead to a better world for all, I think.

What are your thought?


Alright... Who brainwashed you?

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Resilient Acceleration
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Founded: Sep 23, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Resilient Acceleration » Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:21 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Resilient Acceleration wrote:OK but like what? Right now I just entered college taking computer science, and this will fix so much things that I'm starting to consider the possibility of starting one in my own country if I have the apparent chance.


Good luck.

Politics is a little like education in that there's so much pushback to any changes it's difficult to get things done, I feel it's remarkable of Taiwan to react to demonstrations in this way and it puts it into stark contrast with HK for me..

However we have tools and technology to radically change how we do politics but the Constitution is so holy to even suggest change is met with outrageous reaction.

I never said I live in the US... Also the last 2019 student protests against the horrific crime bill was very effective, and succeeded in the parliament postponing the bill for a
few years. Yet the movement quickly fell apart after the student leaders were called to TV debates, exposing the cracks between them while public policy experts grilled them to the abyss. Things like this can be used to build a clear public consensus, and unite differing factions to effectively voice for changes.

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 Koran Tempo | Starlink opens service in Myanmar and Laos, introduces anonymous blockchain subscription "free of taxes and government control" // Tatmadaw criminalizes "accessing unlicensed internet" as cheap, satellite-based foreign ISPs rendered blackouts and censorship impossible // Fears of retaliatory cyberattacks as Starlink eyes 'breaching' the 'Great Firewall' and open service to the Chinese market

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Punainen Suomi
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Founded: Mar 17, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Punainen Suomi » Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:21 pm

I would support the US peacefully dismantling itself into its constituent states. I don't think the world should be dominated by a single superpower.
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Resilient Acceleration
Diplomat
 
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Founded: Sep 23, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Resilient Acceleration » Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:26 pm

Punainen Suomi wrote:I would support the US peacefully dismantling itself into its constituent states. I don't think the world should be dominated by a single superpower.

CCP: it's free real estate.
Last edited by Resilient Acceleration on Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Koran Tempo | Starlink opens service in Myanmar and Laos, introduces anonymous blockchain subscription "free of taxes and government control" // Tatmadaw criminalizes "accessing unlicensed internet" as cheap, satellite-based foreign ISPs rendered blackouts and censorship impossible // Fears of retaliatory cyberattacks as Starlink eyes 'breaching' the 'Great Firewall' and open service to the Chinese market

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Lord Dominator
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Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Lord Dominator » Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:27 pm

To my knowledge, one usually attempts to fix a rotting building, rather than burn the whole building down.

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Bombadil
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16098
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:28 pm

Resilient Acceleration wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
Good luck.

Politics is a little like education in that there's so much pushback to any changes it's difficult to get things done, I feel it's remarkable of Taiwan to react to demonstrations in this way and it puts it into stark contrast with HK for me..

However we have tools and technology to radically change how we do politics but the Constitution is so holy to even suggest change is met with outrageous reaction.

I never said I live in the US... Also the last 2019 student protests against the horrific crime bill was very effective, and succeeded in the parliament postponing the bill for a
few years. Yet the movement quickly fell apart after the student leaders were called to TV debates, exposing the cracks between them while public policy experts grilled them to the abyss. Things like this can be used to build a clear public consensus, and unite differing factions to effectively voice for changes.


I don't live in the US either, but this site does revolve around US politics a lot, and the OP is about the US, mostly I'm talking about the lethargy in changing a system rather than most people's response here which is to reject change without thought.
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US-SSR
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Posts: 2315
Founded: Aug 02, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby US-SSR » Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:29 pm

The Nover Thura wrote:The United States is supposed to be the land of freedom, justice and equality. At least, that is what we are all taught. Reality is far different as the USA is plague by racism, homophobia, class inequality and oppression of minorities. A lot of people defend this horror as patriotism. This is not surprising since America was literally founded by a bunch of old aristocrat who were racist slave owners. And America largely reflect this with its dark history and ongoing oppression of the people.

But today, people are starting to see this. People are demanding change but the reactionaries are defend racism as patriotism because of the constitution and the founding fathers. So my question to you is, would it be good idea to abolish the United States and replace it with a new country. A new country with no dark history, no racist founders, and a constitution that guarantee freedom and equality for all.

I think this is good idea. It can be a America for all people where racism is not patriotic, where there is no dark history and the first president is not a slave owner. It could be an example that can lead to a better world for all, I think.

What are your thought?


I'd settle for abolishing the Electoral College, expanding the Supreme Court to 13 after 2021, admitting DC and Puerto Rico as States and giving states with more people more Senators.
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Bombadil
Post Marshal
 
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Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:30 pm

US-SSR wrote:
The Nover Thura wrote:The United States is supposed to be the land of freedom, justice and equality. At least, that is what we are all taught. Reality is far different as the USA is plague by racism, homophobia, class inequality and oppression of minorities. A lot of people defend this horror as patriotism. This is not surprising since America was literally founded by a bunch of old aristocrat who were racist slave owners. And America largely reflect this with its dark history and ongoing oppression of the people.

But today, people are starting to see this. People are demanding change but the reactionaries are defend racism as patriotism because of the constitution and the founding fathers. So my question to you is, would it be good idea to abolish the United States and replace it with a new country. A new country with no dark history, no racist founders, and a constitution that guarantee freedom and equality for all.

I think this is good idea. It can be a America for all people where racism is not patriotic, where there is no dark history and the first president is not a slave owner. It could be an example that can lead to a better world for all, I think.

What are your thought?


I'd settle for abolishing the Electoral College, expanding the Supreme Court to 13 after 2021, admitting DC and Puerto Rico as States and giving states with more people more Senators.



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Punainen Suomi
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Posts: 169
Founded: Mar 17, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Punainen Suomi » Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:31 pm

Resilient Acceleration wrote:
Punainen Suomi wrote:I would support the US peacefully dismantling itself into its constituent states. I don't think the world should be dominated by a single superpower.

CCP: it's free real estate.

China and Russia should also be dismantled.
Socialist and anti-Imperialist.
Ceterum autem censeo America esse delendam.
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Zoygaria
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Founded: Feb 07, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Zoygaria » Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:33 pm

I was going to deliver a fat rebuttal of why the OP clearly doesn't know what they're talking about, but... after reading the entire thread, it looks like I don't need to.

Alrighty everyone. Pack it up, go home. We scared OP off.
The Imperial Commonwealth of Zoygaria

Gens una, unus populus.

Boring OOC Political Views
Free Hong Kong!

Taiwan China is best China

Democratic Belarus
Дэмакратычная Беларусь
Demokratyczna Białoruś


Yes, Yes, Yes Cymru!

Fun quotes n' stuff
I would not call it war. More like suprise liberation of private property.

Pfft, what's healthcare?!
In Soviet Capitalist Russia Zoygaria, Vodka is all healthcare yuo of need.


It's simple. If he can drink more he is fine. If he cannot he is dead.

Take a seat in my Iron Curtain Booth "Diplomatic Union" chair.

_[ ']_
(-_Q) Kapitaliszm

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