NationStates

And replaced with what?

The Nover Thura wrote:The United States is supposed to be the land of freedom, justice and equality. At least, that is what we are all taught. Reality is far different as the USA is plague by racism, homophobia, class inequality and oppression of minorities. A lot of people defend this horror as patriotism. This is not surprising since America was literally founded by a bunch of old aristocrat who were racist slave owners. And America largely reflect this with its dark history and ongoing oppression of the people.

But today, people are starting to see this. People are demanding change but the reactionaries are defend racism as patriotism because of the constitution and the founding fathers. So my question to you is, would it be good idea to abolish the United States and replace it with a new country. A new country with no dark history, no racist founders, and a constitution that guarantee freedom and equality for all.

I think this is good idea. It can be a America for all people where racism is not patriotic, where there is no dark history and the first president is not a slave owner. It could be an example that can lead to a better world for all, I think.

What are your thought?

My thought is that some people need to get their heads out of the ground and look around. They might just see that maybe America isn't so bad after all.

You can try to rebrand the country and give it a new name but it is defined by its inhabitants and that will never change.

We should try to fix and reform what we have instead of trying to reinvent the wheel. Of course you're going to have resistance no matter what action you take, no matter how just a cause. Thats part of being a democratic society.


Democracy is hard work. Its not rapid, it is fraught with peril and turbidity. The business of democracy is a matter of extreme importance to every citizen. But the wheels of democracy grind finely, and the long arc of history bends towards justice. It is not sexy, but its better than all the other forms of government man has attempted.

There are many "free " Countries in the world today that owe their peace and liberty to the United States. Don't be so quick to throw away the tired ideas upon which our country was founded, that gives us the right to freedom of speech unparalleled in the history of the world. Our system of checks and balances, the right to due process, a jury of our peers, a right to a lawyer. And our constitution doesn't just give us these rights, it holds that they are unalienable. It doesn't give us our rights, it merely recognizes them. It doesn't tell The People what they can or cannot do, it tells the government what it can and cannot do.

The Nover Thura wrote:

Kiu Ghesik wrote:It is removed. The lines were preserved for posterity, the amendments supersede the text in the Constitution's function.

Okay. But what about the founding fathers. They were racist and owned slaves. They did horrible things and people worship them. Would it be better is if America was made new with founders that are not racist?

No. If nothing changes, why refound?

Kiu Ghesik wrote:

The Nover Thura wrote:
Okay. But what about the founding fathers. They were racist and owned slaves. They did horrible things and people worship them. Would it be better is if America was made new with founders that are not racist?

It wouldn't functionally change anything. Besides, every leader from Abraham to the Prophet Mohammed to Charlemagne to the Qing Emperor had slaves. The Founding Fathers' other accomplishments far outweigh being racist and owning slaves when literally every upper-class white dude and their mother did those things in their time.

Not to mention, not all of them owned slaves. Some of them just traded slaves. And a good number had no connection to the trade at all.

Paine and Hamilton, anti-slavery from the beginning.
Get fucked slavers.

Bombadil wrote:I don't necessarily see it as a bad idea, call it the Great Renewal Project, whereby the history of the founding, the wiping out of first natives, the slavery, the inequality, is symbolically renounced and a new Constitution, not greatly different, is created and set as the new foundation of a new America.

I don't particularly see it as necessary but I also don't see it as a bad idea.

I could see it as a way for America trying to hide its history again.

Hardscrabbel wrote:

The Nover Thura wrote:
Okay. But what about the founding fathers. They were racist and owned slaves. They did horrible things and people worship them. Would it be better is if America was made new with founders that are not racist?

Ok... so let’s pretend that everything before Abraham Lincoln was considered “The Old United States of America” and after the Civil war when the union won our official new country was recreated as “The United States of ‘Merica” with Abraham Lincoln as our founding father

He was racist

New haven america wrote:And replaced with what?

According to him, the United States. He just wants to refound it because of its history and some of its founders owning slaves.

The Nover Thura wrote:

Hardscrabbel wrote:
Ok... so let’s pretend that everything before Abraham Lincoln was considered “The Old United States of America” and after the Civil war when the union won our official new country was recreated as “The United States of ‘Merica” with Abraham Lincoln as our founding father

He was racist

He abolished slavery...
I'm done with this thread, calling Good ol Abe racist is past the line.

Hardscrabbel wrote:

The Nover Thura wrote:
Liberia?

That one WAS founded by racists who wanted to find a different place than America to send freed black people

Also those freed African-Americans were themselves racist against the African locals.
Go figure.

The Nover Thura wrote:

Hardscrabbel wrote:
Ok... so let’s pretend that everything before Abraham Lincoln was considered “The Old United States of America” and after the Civil war when the union won our official new country was recreated as “The United States of ‘Merica” with Abraham Lincoln as our founding father

He was racist

He. Abolished. Slavery.

Also, is this just a troll thread? Because it seems a lot like it.

No offense to any of you, but this is what makes NS so radically left. And frankly it’s sickening this thread even exists. I honestly don’t even see why this thread hasn’t been taken down for flaming. I wish you all a lovely rest of your evening and bid you good day.

The United States is holding a lot of debt. If it was abolished, creditors would seize most or all of its assets. National parks, military equipment, that sort of thing.

1. You have a very warped idea of what the U.S. is like. It's bad, but it's not nearly as bad as your hyperbolic vitriol makes it sound. Go back into any country's history and you'll find they did some shitty things. Abolishing countries because of their dark past is, frankly, stupid. Germany is fairly nice now even with it's Nazi past - I don't see you wanting to abolish that. Let's not forget Japan which still denies having committed the worst war crimes in WWII. Don't see you attacking them, either. France, Britain, Russia, China, Brazil, Serbia, Greece, Turkey, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Libya, Afghanistan, India, Pakistan, Burma, Ukraine, Vietnam, Cuba, Haiti, Venezuela, Argentina, Angola, Ethiopia... I can go on, dude. Following your logic we should abolish every country that's ever existed.

2. Hope you know Mandarin, because in a world without the USA you'll need to.

Northwest Kalactin wrote:

The Nover Thura wrote:
He was racist

He. Abolished. Slavery.

Also, is this just a troll thread? Because it seems a lot like it.

I don't think anyone can be this unironically dim

The Nover Thura wrote:

Hardscrabbel wrote:
Ok... so let’s pretend that everything before Abraham Lincoln was considered “The Old United States of America” and after the Civil war when the union won our official new country was recreated as “The United States of ‘Merica” with Abraham Lincoln as our founding father

He was racist

Fine New America was founded when Obama became president

The US has done(and is still doing) absolutely horrific atrocities, but abolishing it as a country is rather implausible. First of all, it is not easy to abolish a country and second of all, even if we have a new country the horrific past will still remain. You can’t change history. I long for the day all oppressive governments are dismantled but that will be in a long time.

The Nover Thura wrote:

Hardscrabbel wrote:
Ok... so let’s pretend that everything before Abraham Lincoln was considered “The Old United States of America” and after the Civil war when the union won our official new country was recreated as “The United States of ‘Merica” with Abraham Lincoln as our founding father

He was racist

Eventually, he wasn't, if you even consider it racism.

You're trying to tell us that a change in something is not a change because they were something other than the change originally.

Dominioan wrote:

Bombadil wrote:I don't necessarily see it as a bad idea, call it the Great Renewal Project, whereby the history of the founding, the wiping out of first natives, the slavery, the inequality, is symbolically renounced and a new Constitution, not greatly different, is created and set as the new foundation of a new America.

I don't particularly see it as necessary but I also don't see it as a bad idea.

I could see it as a way for America trying to hide its history again.

It wouldn't be hiding it, it would be renouncing it. It would absolutely be acknowledging it.

Personally I never liked "United States".
The Commonwealth of America sounds better.

No thanks. I'd rather have my state (California) remain part of the US as opposed to being an independent state.

This sounds like a parody of the "Shall China exist?" thread.

Theberstan wrote:No offense to any of you, but this is what makes NS so radically left. And frankly it’s sickening this thread even exists. I honestly don’t even see why this thread hasn’t been taken down for flaming. I wish you all a lovely rest of your evening and bid you good day.

Most of NS is just teens who read about all the fancy stuff they have in Europe but have never actually been there. At least that's my impression. If popular culture and the internet are your only windows into another society your destined to have a warped image.

Northwest Kalactin wrote:

The Nover Thura wrote:
He was racist

He. Abolished. Slavery.

Also, is this just a troll thread? Because it seems a lot like it.

He was racist, though. He didn't abolish slavery because he thought blacks and whites should be equal; he abolished it because he thought it was a moral sickness - which it was.

Honest Abe, like most human beings in history, was a flawed man and not perfect.

Greater Victora wrote:

Northwest Kalactin wrote:He. Abolished. Slavery.

Also, is this just a troll thread? Because it seems a lot like it.

I don't think anyone can be this unironically dim

You talking to me? Or Nover Thura?

The Nover Thura wrote:The United States is supposed to be the land of freedom, justice and equality. At least, that is what we are all taught. Reality is far different as the USA is plague by racism, homophobia, class inequality and oppression of minorities. A lot of people defend this horror as patriotism. This is not surprising since America was literally founded by a bunch of old aristocrat who were racist slave owners. And America largely reflect this with its dark history and ongoing oppression of the people.

But today, people are starting to see this. People are demanding change but the reactionaries are defend racism as patriotism because of the constitution and the founding fathers. So my question to you is, would it be good idea to abolish the United States and replace it with a new country. A new country with no dark history, no racist founders, and a constitution that guarantee freedom and equality for all.

I think this is good idea. It can be a America for all people where racism is not patriotic, where there is no dark history and the first president is not a slave owner. It could be an example that can lead to a better world for all, I think.

What are your thought?

But then you forget that BLM somehow “accidentally” spray painted a black war hero’s statue during one of their “peacful protests.” You cannot erase history no matter how many reparations you hand out... it’ll never make up for the past. The past is in the past and move on.