Why does the rest of the world see US Democrats as center?

[Hetleikun]

Here's something that is half-rich and half-sad, the rest of the world outside of the US sees the Democrat Party as center-right and the Republicans are far-right? Okay, I understand it in a way. But these militant groups like ANTIFA or other ones are now connected to the left and Democrat party. The majority of Democrats will not even denounce them or their tactics, and they are eerily starting to sound parallel to the radical left. Maybe in European countries the Dems are perceived center-right (and again, Europe also has it's own issues), but I now think it's a ludicrous shot to say they are not left.

I don't know why I'd be considered a "far-right extremist" for disliking the tactics of ANTIFA and questioning the more progressive beliefs of the Democrats/left platform in general. But, whatever.

[Halexandria]

So you're going to ignore the fact ANTIFA's anti-fascist? If you want unstable and dangerous militant groups, I will happily direct you to the Proud Boys.

Edit: I should mention ANTIFA is a separate organization from the Democratic Party. They have similar ideas at times, but use different tactics to spread their message.

[Albrenia]

Because to much of the rest of the world, Democrats are pretty centre to centre-right in their beliefs. They're just nowhere near being left-wing or socialist in their beliefs. The idea that most Democrats are 'radical left' is just a meme peddled by the right to make their own veering to the right seem more 'centered'.

Antifa and the like are jerks, you're not right-wing for believing that, since I do too. Many of them are just in it for the chaos and property damage. I think they attracted a lot of Anarchist types using the movement's more popular aspects as a cover.

[Major-Tom]

I feel like you can answer the question yourself. If the whole world, barring a few outsiders and parts of the GOP, thinks the Dems are largely centrist, perhaps they are centrists?

Because, last time I checked, ANTIFA, everybody's favorite boogeyman, isn't a part of the Democratic Party. Go to Portland and ask the ANTIFA folks there if they like Biden, I guarantee all of them will groan. I don't know how so many people got duped into believing that Dems = ANTIFA, but it's really quite sad.

[Aboveland]

Here's something that is half-rich and half-sad, the rest of the world outside of the US sees the Democrat Party as center-right and the Republicans are far-right? Okay, I understand it in a way. But these militant groups like ANTIFA or other ones are now connected to the left and Democrat party. The majority of Democrats will not even denounce them or their tactics, and they are eerily starting to sound parallel to the radical left. Maybe in European countries the Dems are perceived center-right (and again, Europe also has it's own issues), but I now think it's a ludicrous shot to say they are not left.

I don't know why I'd be considered a "far-right extremist" for disliking the tactics of ANTIFA and questioning the more progressive beliefs of the Democrats/left platform in general. But, whatever.

I think it's ludicrous to think that a genuine leftist candidate could win an election in today's America. As far as I, a former expat, understand, Americans hold the idea of free market capitalism very dear. Sure, there's this massive trend online leaning towards leftist rhetoric, especially among people my age, but aside from a higher tax rate on corporations and a slightly broader healthcare program, I don't see the US lean further left than that.

A lot of the American dream is based upon the hope or ambition to build oneself up from scratch and manage their assets at will, I think, and any semblance of a restriction on economic freedom is fundamentally against that.

I dunno, I don't see the US having an NHS, or state monopolies on air travel, energy, waterworks, etc. The furthest right president Argentina has had in the past 20 years increased spending on welfare while lifting import tariffs, and if the democrats are leftists this guy would have been a communist.

[Cordel One]

The Democrats believe in preserving capitalism and the status quo. As a party they support the endless wars, are fine with ICE, support cops, believe in the United States, and will largely cater to the needs of the ultrawealthy, though slightly less so than the Republicans. They don't want to mess with the current system beyond small reforms. The Republicans are further right for sure, but the Democrats are not left-wing by any means.

Now on to ANTIFA. ANTIFA is NOT a group. It has no leaders, no organization, no specific beliefs or party ties, and no command structure. This is because ANTIFA is an acronym for anti-fascist. If you oppose fascism, you are an ANTIFA. Some antifascists are violent, some aren't.

Fascism is a very far right ideology, so the further you go to the right the more opposition you will find to antifascist action. The Republican party itself is not fascist, but there are some white supremacists within it and some fascist support. When things get violet between fascists and antifascists, the people on the fascist side are often Republicans.


I hope hearing this from the perspective of a leftist/antifascist helps you out with your understanding. If you look through my posts you'll see I don't like Democrats much either. I can provide sources for all of this if you want them.

[The Rich Port]

Here's something that is half-rich and half-sad, the rest of the world outside of the US sees the Democrat Party as center-right and the Republicans are far-right? Okay, I understand it in a way. But these militant groups like ANTIFA or other ones are now connected to the left and Democrat party. The majority of Democrats will not even denounce them or their tactics, and they are eerily starting to sound parallel to the radical left. Maybe in European countries the Dems are perceived center-right (and again, Europe also has it's own issues), but I now think it's a ludicrous shot to say they are not left.

I don't know why I'd be considered a "far-right extremist" for disliking the tactics of ANTIFA and questioning the more progressive beliefs of the Democrats/left platform in general. But, whatever.

Sounds to me like you've been spending too much time with a bunch of European communists.

[Geneviev]

Because they are. I'd love to see Biden criticize capitalism, but it hasn't happened yet.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Here's something that is half-rich and half-sad, the rest of the world outside of the US sees the Democrat Party as center-right and the Republicans are far-right? Okay, I understand it in a way. But these militant groups like ANTIFA or other ones are now connected to the left and Democrat party. The majority of Democrats will not even denounce them or their tactics, and they are eerily starting to sound parallel to the radical left. Maybe in European countries the Dems are perceived center-right (and again, Europe also has it's own issues), but I now think it's a ludicrous shot to say they are not left.

I don't know why I'd be considered a "far-right extremist" for disliking the tactics of ANTIFA and questioning the more progressive beliefs of the Democrats/left platform in general. But, whatever.

This is basically a claim, dressed up as a question. You should have posted it in one of the US politics threads.

[The Alma Mater]

To add some nuance to the above answers: yes, technically antifa means people with an anti-fascist mindset. So that would include everyone who thinks the holocaust was bad, Churchill, the French, communists etc. etc.

In practice however the people who actively use the term antifa to describe themselves, with selfmade logos and flags and black/red clothes are a bit more narrow of a group wirh a focus on being militant and protesting. And some of them are pretty loose when it comes to calling things fascist. Criticism is warranted for those.

That being said, antifa is involved in very few of the riots. Most of the rioting and looting is done by local thugs without strong political affiliation (or common skincolour). Looters who somewhat prefer Trump are probably more numerous than antifa or blm looters in fact.

[Forsher]

The idea is usually that the Democrats want things that the rest of the (developed) world takes for granted, while, particularly under Trump, the Republicans ridicule, reject or restrict those things.

At the same time... there's a whole bunch of social issues where the US left is entirely on the same page, if not writing the book, as the "rest of the world". And given people tend to raise the "but the Democrats are centre-right in the rest of the world/Europe" as a "reality check" I think the argument is overstated. The reality is that different countries are very different places.

I was doing a survey at the end of last year... I'd talk to literally hundreds of people a day and very, very few of them would be called "black" if they were in the US (and hardly any were actually eligible for the survey, either... especially the enthusiastic ones). But black politics is a HUGE part of American political culture and political issues... whereas indigenous politics appears practically non-existent or co-opted by environmentalism, but is a huge part of political life in NZ. Likewise, we've traditionally worried about the "brain drain" (see also: Ireland) but in the US, the main immigration topic is "illegals"... although in the last five years, NZ"s taken a MASSIVE shift to the right on immigration (you may have heard that Jacinda Ardern was compared to Donald Trump in this area... despite her protests, the comparison was completely fair).

Of course, sometimes countries are effectively the same. A great example of that would be environmentalism. NZ's infamously mostly talk about this... so much so, I saw someone who couldn't understand why the Greens pegged a policy to the UK, not realising in that specific context the UK is basically world leading (based on commitments). The US might not agree to major accords but, in some sense, it's political leaders are just being a lot more honest about what's going to happen. And so you get the same "stop blaming the farmers" discourses in NZ and the US.

There's a flipside to that specific issue in that the US is actually very protectionist ("leftwing"), especially when it comes to agriculture (most of the world is, actually). Consequently, no-one in the US seriously talks about getting rid of subsidies... just maybe making them less corn focussed. NZ has none. But more than that the notion of having them is dismissed with appeals to butter mountains and so on. The vast majority of the world is like the US rather than here (which sucks... agriculture is arguably the least liberalised area of goods trade).

[Wizlandia]

Here's something that is half-rich and half-sad, the rest of the world outside of the US sees the Democrat Party as center-right and the Republicans are far-right? Okay, I understand it in a way. But these militant groups like ANTIFA or other ones are now connected to the left and Democrat party. The majority of Democrats will not even denounce them or their tactics, and they are eerily starting to sound parallel to the radical left. Maybe in European countries the Dems are perceived center-right (and again, Europe also has it's own issues), but I now think it's a ludicrous shot to say they are not left.

I don't know why I'd be considered a "far-right extremist" for disliking the tactics of ANTIFA and questioning the more progressive beliefs of the Democrats/left platform in general. But, whatever.

I'd say up to roughly the '08 recession they were very centrist (by the standards of western countries). Democrats were (and still are) a very big tent party with lots of ideological diversity, and included many centrists and even some centre-right folk. That being said, the last ten years (especially since 2016) has seen Democrats veer sharply leftwards such that they are now a solidly centre-left party, much like the German SPD or Labour sans Corbyn. This is backed up by data from the Manifesto Project.

As for the current AOC/Bernie wing, they are Left (they are much closer to Germany's Die Linke than SPD/Alliance), but they still represent a minority of the party.

[Ostroeuropa]

Fascism - Far Right
Conservatism - Right
Liberalism - Centre/Right and Centre
Social Democracy - Centre and Centre/Left
Socialism - Left
Communism - Far Left


What do you guys call the Democrats?

[Blargoblarg]

Here's something that is half-rich and half-sad, the rest of the world outside of the US sees the Democrat Party as center-right and the Republicans are far-right? Okay, I understand it in a way. But these militant groups like ANTIFA or other ones are now connected to the left and Democrat party. The majority of Democrats will not even denounce them or their tactics, and they are eerily starting to sound parallel to the radical left. Maybe in European countries the Dems are perceived center-right (and again, Europe also has it's own issues), but I now think it's a ludicrous shot to say they are not left.

I don't know why I'd be considered a "far-right extremist" for disliking the tactics of ANTIFA and questioning the more progressive beliefs of the Democrats/left platform in general. But, whatever.

The rest of the world is correct. The Democrats are center-right to right-wing, and the Republicans are right-wing to far-right. The left in the U.S. has no major party to represent it, just a bunch of left-wing third parties. And antifa isn't a group, it's short for anti-fascist. The claims that the Democrats are "radical left" and/or support antifa are just fearmongering from the Republican Party.

[Wizlandia]

Fascism - Far Right
Conservatism - Right
Liberalism - Centre/Right and Centre
Social Democracy - Centre and Centre/Left
Socialism - Left
Communism - Far Left


What do you guys call the Democrats?

Obviously its all relative, but its wrong to call conservatism right-wing and socialism left-wing if we are going by the political centre of almost any nation in the world. How many mainstream parties are conservative vs how many are socialist (social ownership of the means of production). IMO its more like:

Fascism - Far Right
National Conservatism - Centre-Right to Right
Christian Democracy - Centre-Right
Liberal Conservatism - Centre-Right
Liberalism - Centre (Centre-Left to Centre-Right; e.g. UK LibDems are centre-left, Germany's FDP are centre-right)
Social Democracy - Centre-Left
Socialism/Communism/Anarchism - Left to Far-Left

Democrats are a soft social democratic/centre-left liberal party. Republicans under Trump have become a soft national conservative party, whereas before Trump they were a party of liberal conservative politicians who often had to pander to their national conservative base.

Democrats are closer to the centre than the Republicans.

[Page]

Yet another propaganda blog entry disguised as a discussion.

[Disgraces]

Off topic but ANTIFA hasn't got the slightest idea about fascism.

[Picairn]

"The rest of the world" is just Eurocentric nonsensical doublespeak for European nations. Politics in third world countries (Asia and Africa) are significantly more conservative. Asian countries are still waging their War on Drugs and banning gay marriage.

[Dolgo]

Here's something that is half-rich and half-sad, the rest of the world outside of the US sees the Democrat Party as center-right and the Republicans are far-right? Okay, I understand it in a way. But these militant groups like ANTIFA or other ones are now connected to the left and Democrat party. The majority of Democrats will not even denounce them or their tactics, and they are eerily starting to sound parallel to the radical left. Maybe in European countries the Dems are perceived center-right (and again, Europe also has it's own issues), but I now think it's a ludicrous shot to say they are not left.

I don't know why I'd be considered a "far-right extremist" for disliking the tactics of ANTIFA and questioning the more progressive beliefs of the Democrats/left platform in general. But, whatever.

No idea how the rest of the world regards the Democrats. There is no left or right in the United States. If you check out the two parties' articles on Wikipedia, they have no political position on the left–right political spectrum. American politicians are in a spectrum of their own. It's not really "equality" vs. "hierarchy" in the United States, but rather Protestant Hollywood vs. Evangelical Hollywood.

The United States is one of the few high-income countries that is opposed to a number of sane policies adopted by countries of similar wealth elsewhere. The most significant one is their opposition to universal healthcare. The benefit of a such a policy is that it spreads the costs, which make it a lot more affordable to treat illnesses, as people will seek preventative medicine as opposed to emergency procedures. Preventative medicine is far less costly than treating a condition at its worse, but the American healthcare system encourages people to neglect seeing the doctor. U.S. political culture is unique in its continued persistence of Cold War paranoia over government programs that would help everyday Americans. Many believe if the government introduces universal healthcare, it will be a slippery slope to a communist dictatorship. Either that, or is likely some plot by "the gays", "Radical Islam", "fascists", or at the most fringe: "the Jews." Some even believe 5G technology will melt their brains and turn them gay—or that global warming is a mass conspiracy by more than 90% of scientists, who have somehow been paid off by the Chinese, or "globalists" (often a codeword for "the Jews.").

When it comes to interfering with bodily autonomy, concerns about government interference are pushed aside for selective enforcement of traditionalism. Basically, you matter if you're a fetus, but don't as soon as you come out of the sacred womb, which is about the only part of the body that matters on a fe-male, according to some. If you're born with defects, then you'll be called a "miracle." Unfortunately, even miracles aren't given universal healthcare.

I would say the U.S. thrives on the fact that it is an economy of scale and has massive international influence. Certain areas of the states are particularly influential, California for its media productions for example, and New York as a global financial hub. The United States has attracted a lot of high quality immigrants and nurtures a great deal of technological innovation. Its rebellious society has some strengths in this area, going against the grain is actively promoted, which does help in fields demanding creativity and inventiveness. On matters of public policy however, it is near the level of incompetence of a third world country. Getting a bill passed with bipartisan support these days is all so tiresome.

Life in the U.S. isn't that bad, relatively speaking, but certainly if you can afford to move, there are far better options available that have more competent governance, more social harmony, and greater economic freedom. However, most areas outside the U.S. are notable for their relatively lower levels of gun ownership and less fat people. Freedom fries and mass shootings are found far less in developed nations outside the U.S. as well. Advocating genocide is illegal in many developed nations beyond the United States. When abroad, these missing elements may inspire home sickness in Americans, who may long to return to the Wild West or feel nostalgic for the times that getting cancer would force them into bankruptcy. Or maybe they just miss the freedom to call for the public killing of gays. As a result, most Americans never entertain moving abroad, for either the outside world doesn't exist or—as many believe—is a gay communist dystopian Islamic hellscape, secretly run a small cabal of Jewish people, overrun with AIDs and rapists.

Anyway, just my short take.

[Radiatia]

I've always said there's no such thing a 'centrism' as what is considered 'centre' changes from country to country and also changes with the times - for example the Republicans of the early 20th century would be considered left-wing by most of today's standards.

But yes, American politics do seem to be a little to the right of the rest of the world - for example if you compared the platforms of the Democratic Party (supposedly 'left' in America) and the New Zealand National Party (supposedly 'right' in New Zealand), you'd find a lot of overlap there.

The last few years have definitely seen the rise of extremism in the US but most of what Americans refer to as extreme left tends to focus on their extreme views on social policy rather than them having a coherent economic ideology. Even the self-professed socialist Bernie Sanders isn't really a socialist, for example. (I've never heard him calling to nationalise the means of production.)

The same is true on the far right actually - we've seen a definitely rise of open white supremacy in the last few years and while that's an extremist (and abhorrent) social ideology, there's not really a coherent economic argument underpinning these people and the few on offer actually tend to be somewhat to the left. (C.f. in 2016, Political Compass ranked Donald Trump as being further left economically than Hillary Clinton.)

I can't remember where I was going with all this as I'm half asleep but basically - on the economic axis, the US is well to the right of the rest of the developed world and the extremism we're seeing is on the y axis of the political compass, rather than the economic axis.

[The Alma Mater]

Yet another propaganda blog entry disguised as a discussion.

The one post hit and run op may return.. you never know.
Still, the topic on how the USA is rightshifted compared to other countries is one that frequently comes up in other threads, so interesting even without him.

[Salandriagado]

Because they pretty much are. They're basically flat corporate capitalists economically, and are so all over the place socially you can't really put them down as anything. Over here, they'd mostly fit in with our centre-right parties, especially parties like the CDU in Germany.

[Heloin]

"The rest of the world" is just Eurocentric nonsensical doublespeak for European nations. Politics in third world countries (Asia and Africa) are significantly more conservative. Asian countries are still waging their War on Drugs and banning gay marriage.

Both America's two big parties would still be seen as right and centrist respectfully.

[Dolgo]

"The rest of the world" is just Eurocentric nonsensical doublespeak for European nations. Politics in third world countries (Asia and Africa) are significantly more conservative. Asian countries are still waging their War on Drugs and banning gay marriage.

Fascinating. Worded to denialism, but if taken literally, actually quite accurate. Politics in America is indeed more comparable to those found in third world countries than in Europe.

When describing American politics, people should not use Europe as a comparison, but rather third world nations in Africa and Asia—which as you say, are more appropriate to compare America to.

[Heloin]

"The rest of the world" is just Eurocentric nonsensical doublespeak for European nations. Politics in third world countries (Asia and Africa) are significantly more conservative. Asian countries are still waging their War on Drugs and banning gay marriage.

Fascinating. Worded to denialism, but if taken literally, actually quite accurate. Politics in America is indeed more comparable to those found in third world countries than in Europe.

When describing American politics, people should not use Europe as a comparison, but rather third world nations in Africa and Asia—which as you say, are more appropriate to compare America to.

The GOP would still be very right wing by African standards.