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New Arizona Immigration Law Poll

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Do you support Arizona's new immigration law?

Yes
34
10%
No
178
51%
Don't care
11
3%
I'd like all of our states to embrace it
129
37%
 
Total votes : 352

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Dyakovo
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Postby Dyakovo » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:48 pm

Alcanso wrote:they broke this law the second they hopped the fence and wern't caught

And?
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Urgolon
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Postby Urgolon » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:48 pm

Somehow seems unconstitutional, unnecessary searches and seizures and all.
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Alcanso
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Postby Alcanso » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:54 pm

Srry I'm one of those crazy nuts who say

"I'm truly sorry for those who are legal immigrants, and compositions will be made for you, but we have to racial profile to resolve this problem which is costing our country billions"

(that doesn't mean cops can't just bust down doors, they have to follow protocol)

(Side note, total irrelevance)
My neighbor is LAPD. In one month, he pulled over 4 mexicans JUST because they were mexican. 3 out of the 4 were illegal and 2 of them had illegal drugs on them.
Last edited by Alcanso on Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JJ Place
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Postby JJ Place » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:54 pm

Our Constitution wrote:With the poll figures coming in it looks like over 70% support the new anti-illegal immigration Bill in Arizona.

I wouldn't dare to try to appear neutral in this debate. I support it 100% and actually feel that it isn't tough enough. Other States should follow suit as well.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... mmigration

Other polls show that upward to 80% of U.S. voters support legislation that would actually "force out" illegal immigrants. It seems that the Federal Government is once again neglecting to respect the will of the people and it looks like the American people are starting to fight back.

The Arizona legislature has now passed the toughest measure against illegal immigration in the country, authorizing local police to stop and check the immigration status of anyone they suspect of being in the country illegally.

A new Rasmussen Reports telephone survey finds that 70% of likely voters in Arizona approve of the legislation, while just 23% oppose it.

Opponents of the measure, including major national Hispanic groups, say it will lead to racial profiling, and 53% of voters in the state are concerned that efforts to identify and deport illegal immigrants also will end up violating the civil rights of some U.S. citizens. Forty-six percent (46%) don’t share that concern

Those figures include 23% who are very concerned and 18% who are not at all concerned.

Civil rights concerns were a bit higher last year. following a series of aggressive enforcement actions by the Maricopa County Sherriff.

Eighty-three percent (83%) of Arizona voters say a candidate's position on immigration is an important factor in how they will vote, including 51% who say it’s very important.

The measure is already having an impact on this year’s Senate and governor races in the state.

Senator John McCain, who is facing a serious Republican Primary challenge this year in part over his involvement in developing immigration reform legislation, on Monday endorsed the new state law. McCain now earns just 47% support to challenger J.D. Hayworth’s 42% in Arizona’s hotly contested GOP Senate Primary race.

(Want a free daily e-mail update? If it's in the news, it's in our polls). Rasmussen Reports updates are also available on Twitter or Facebook.

Arizonans consistently have been critical of the U.S. government’s failure to secure the border with Mexico, and that anxiety has increased with growing drug violence along the border.

While many in Washington, D.C. view immigration reform as a way to legalize the 10 million or more illegal immigrants in the country, 73% of voters in Arizona now say gaining control of the border is more important than legalizing the status of these undocumented workers.

In July of last year, 51% of Arizona voters said it is more important for Congress to pass immigration reform than health care reform.

That view is shared by voters nationwide and has been for several years.

Eighty-four percent (84%) of Arizona Republicans and 69% of voters not affiliated with either major party in the state favor the new get-tough legislation. Democrats are more closely divided: 51% like the new law, but 43% oppose it.

Sixty percent (60%) of Democrats and 57% of unaffiliateds are concerned that the law may lead to possible civil rights violations against U.S. citizens. Fifty-four percent (54%) of Republicans are not very or not at all concerned about this.

Republican Governor Jan Brewer now has the bill on her desk, awaiting either her signature into law or her veto. State Attorney General Terry Goddard, a Democrat who is running against Brewer for governor this year, has announced his opposition to the new law.

The top four GOP contenders for governor of Arizona, including Brewer, have all expanded their support since last month in match-ups with Goddard. The Democrat has lost ground and now trails in all four contests. One factor in the latest trends may have been Goddard’s refusal to join other states in suing the federal government over the new health care law. Brewer found a way to proceed despite Goddard’s refusal and got a big bounce in the polls.

The new law puts into state statute some of the policies that have long been practiced by Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio. But his aggressive enforcement of federal laws against illegal immigration have triggered a Justice Department probe and moves by the Obama administration to reduce his ability to enforce federal immigration laws.

When these moves against Arpaio were first reported in March 2009, 68% of Arizona voters said they had a favorable view of the sheriff. Voters also strongly favored his tactics including police raids on places where illegal immigrants gather to find work.


I wouldn't doubt that 90% of the population is at least mostly (over 51%) in favor of this bill; it does not mean they're right. 'Illegal' Immigration is one of the hardest things to convince many American, Americans that I would otherwise mostly agree with, that it is not bad for the United States, and that any problems that such an issue might have can be avoided without walling off this entire nation and turning into a Fascist Police State in order to stop something that is not a problem.
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Cobhanglica
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Postby Cobhanglica » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:55 pm

Tekania wrote:
Cobhanglica wrote:If Hispanics are to be disproportionately suspected of the crime of residing illegally in the United States, it is only because they compromise the majority of the perpetrators. Marching in the streets with Spanish signs and Mexican flags doesn't help their case one bit.


Cause, you know, it's not like any one else does that...

Image

Image

Image

And the images could continue for quite some time...

So, how do you like your crow, fried, fricasseed, broiled, baked or roasted?


I'm not saying that they are the only group to do so. What I am saying is that they clamor for more rights as Americans from on side of their mouths and from the other proclaim the greatness of Mexico. There is nothing wrong with taking pride in your heritage (as long as it doesn't exceed your pride in America), but it doesn't exactly display loyalty or a desire to assimilate when every "immigrant rights" march is nothing but a flood of foreign flags and languages.
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New Chalcedon
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Postby New Chalcedon » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:57 pm

Ashaven wrote:Frankly, shouldn't you have your papers with you anyway?


Die papers, bitte Mein Herr. (Apologies for the execrable Garman: I believe that this reads, in English "Your papers please, Mister.")

One of the first steps of totalitarian regimes, throughout history and across the world, is to force its citizens to always carry identification. After all, you can't control people if you don't always know where they are, can you?

This law is anti-freedom, anti-due-process, anti-Constitutional (I made a post about that some number of pages ago in this thread, to which nobody responded) and anti-American. I, for one, look forward to its well-deserved death in the courts, and in hte meantime urge all Americans who support the idea of liberty to boycott Arizona, its corporations and its produce.
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Muravyets
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Postby Muravyets » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:57 pm

Alcanso wrote:Srry I'm one of those crazy nuts who say

"I'm truly sorry for those who are legal immigrants, and compositions will be made for you, but we have to racial profile to resolve this problem which is costing our country billions"

(that doesn't mean cops can't just bust down doors, they have to follow protocol)

(Side note, total irrelevance)
My neighbor is LAPD. In one month, he pulled over 4 mexicans JUST because they were mexican. 3 out of the 4 were illegal and 2 of them had illegal drugs on them.

And you're saying that the only way to protect the US from illegal immigration is to randomly target anyone who looks Mexican -- in other words, the brown ones? So you don't care about illegal immigrants from other places, like Russia and places like that? Why? Because those people are white?
Last edited by Muravyets on Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Our Constitution
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Postby Our Constitution » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:57 pm

The Corparation wrote:
Alcanso wrote:I'm 100% for it. IT's a ant-Illegal bill NOT an anti-immigration bill

Fact:
- there are 20,000,000 (+) Illegals/ undocumented people in this country
- 75-80% of who are hispanic.
- All Aliens have to have documentation on them (IT's A FEDERAL LAW LOOK IT UP) (that means even a LEAGAL immigrant who doesn't have their papers on them can be throw in jail and or a fine)
-they're only enforcing our immigration laws WHICH SOME OF THEM HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR 60 YEARS

-Illegals ARE LAW BREAKERS. SO that means the only rights they get are a right to an attorney and no unreasonable punishment.

Under this law you could be deported for failing to carry your birth certificate/green card/visa/student visa/passport/drivers liscense. Some people don't have drivers liscenses and native born citizens don't have to carry around their birth certifacatees and passports. Law Breakers Don't have rights you say? Well if you do an illeagal U-turn, jaywalk or any other trivial offense you are a lawbreaker. A murder suspect is far more dangerous than an illeagal and they have the right to defend themselves in court. Why should a suspected not be allowed to prove their legal in a fair trail?


A few ways to respond to this.

"murder suspect" - the key word here is "suspect"
"convicted murdered" - the key word here is "convicted"

The other part of your suggestion is that I can do something illegal, lets say jaywalking, and I get picked up and deported for not having my papers. How would they know which country to deport me to? Are you suggesting that I'm going to be deported by default to Mexico?

Lets consider another term:
"Suspect Foreign National Illegally Trespassing in the United States without Documentation"
How do you know they aren't part of Foreign Spy Network? or part of a Mexican Program to Demographically Re-Engineer the United States for an eventual take-over? Or that they aren't "Astro-Turfing" Sovereign U.S. Territory for the same?

I'm sure most are just here to get a job, make money, and send it home.

I have another proposition: We consider these Foreign Nationals as part of an Exchange Program for Job Training. We send them back to Mexico so that they can put the skills they have learned here to practical use to improve Mexico.

The People of Mexico, and indeed from all around the World are our brothers & sisters, and I will conclude my rant with this. When George Washington was leading his forces against the British he would inspire his troops with readings from Thomas Paine and I quote: "“The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.” That single sentence is what identified and set in stone the defining trait of the American Creed and what seperated Americans from everyone else. However, the existential survival of that creedo and legacy is what we all struggle to preserve. If this is the Creedo of the Mexican people then so be it. Let them join US in Union and become One Nation. But until such guarantees and such a peace can be concluded, they are foreign nationals illegally trespassing and it is the duty of American to send them away until such a future time that such an eternal assurance can be made.

The most important thing though, is that we adopt a Consistent National Policy on this issue and in our relations with these Foreign Nationals and the Mexican people. Ask yourself if these people are immigrating here is evidence of the Mexican People's need to expand for "more breathing room"

To me, they are just State Citizens of Mexico. In my opinion, the only way they should become U.S. Citizens is for Mexico to join the U.S. or for them to be Naturalized through the traditional Naturalization process.
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New Chalcedon
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Postby New Chalcedon » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:58 pm

Cobhanglica wrote:
I'm not saying that they are the only group to do so. What I am saying is that they clamor for more rights as Americans from on side of their mouths and from the other proclaim the greatness of Mexico. There is nothing wrong with taking pride in your heritage (as long as it doesn't exceed your pride in America), but it doesn't exactly display loyalty or a desire to assimilate when every "immigrant rights" march is nothing but a flood of foreign flags and languages.


They said that about the Irish some years ago, you know. Again, how do you like your crow?
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JJ Place
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Postby JJ Place » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:58 pm

Muravyets wrote:
Alcanso wrote:they broke this law the second they hopped the fence and wern't caught

Which ones did that? Out of all the people walking down the street, which ones are here illegally? How are you going to tell them apart from the citizens and legal residents? Tell me, how?


Actually, the provisions of the bill are this, to clarify:

If a person has done something illegal, or are spotted as having something illegal that they've done (such as, say, having a broken tail-light on your car) and the police officer who stops you thinks your illegal, they can ask you for your papers right on the spot, and you are given a period, usually 24-hours, to produce your papers to the police. If you cannot, then bye bye! Back to Mexico you go, all on the tax-payer's dollars!
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Our Constitution
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Postby Our Constitution » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:00 pm

Muravyets wrote:
Cobhanglica wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:
Our Constitution wrote:They are not under U.S. Jurisdiction.

False.


But they are not American citizens and do not have the rights that come with citizenship. You are not entitled to live in the United States simply by being alive.

If they are in the US, they are under US jurisdiction and subject to US law -- including the protections that come with it.



That is a mis-interpretation of the U.S. Constitution's 14th Amendment. A Mexican Citizen in the United States is under Mexican Jurisdiction through the Mexican Consulate / Embassy. These are very well crafted matters of International Diplomacy.

You are quite simply wrong my friend.
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Cobhanglica
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Postby Cobhanglica » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:03 pm

New Chalcedon wrote:
Cobhanglica wrote:
I'm not saying that they are the only group to do so. What I am saying is that they clamor for more rights as Americans from on side of their mouths and from the other proclaim the greatness of Mexico. There is nothing wrong with taking pride in your heritage (as long as it doesn't exceed your pride in America), but it doesn't exactly display loyalty or a desire to assimilate when every "immigrant rights" march is nothing but a flood of foreign flags and languages.


They said that about the Irish some years ago, you know. Again, how do you like your crow?


What do the Irish have to do with this? It doesn't matter which country you come from; you can't show more loyalty to your old country than to America and expect to be accepted.
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Vervaria
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Postby Vervaria » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:04 pm

Cobhanglica wrote:
New Chalcedon wrote:
Cobhanglica wrote:
I'm not saying that they are the only group to do so. What I am saying is that they clamor for more rights as Americans from on side of their mouths and from the other proclaim the greatness of Mexico. There is nothing wrong with taking pride in your heritage (as long as it doesn't exceed your pride in America), but it doesn't exactly display loyalty or a desire to assimilate when every "immigrant rights" march is nothing but a flood of foreign flags and languages.


They said that about the Irish some years ago, you know. Again, how do you like your crow?


What do the Irish have to do with this? It doesn't matter which country you come from; you can't show more loyalty to your old country than to America and expect to be accepted.

The same kind of crap was spread about Irish immigrants in the 19th century, if I understand what Chalcedon is referring to.
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Muravyets
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Postby Muravyets » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:05 pm

JJ Place wrote:
Muravyets wrote:
Alcanso wrote:they broke this law the second they hopped the fence and wern't caught

Which ones did that? Out of all the people walking down the street, which ones are here illegally? How are you going to tell them apart from the citizens and legal residents? Tell me, how?


Actually, the provisions of the bill are this, to clarify:

If a person has done something illegal, or are spotted as having something illegal that they've done (such as, say, having a broken tail-light on your car) and the police officer who stops you thinks your illegal, they can ask you for your papers right on the spot, and you are given a period, usually 24-hours, to produce your papers to the police. If you cannot, then bye bye! Back to Mexico you go, all on the tax-payer's dollars!

Really? Is that you quoting the bill or just something you made up in the hope that it's how the law will be interpreted by the racists who wrote it? Because the parts of the law that I've read say specifically that the cops not only can but MUST demand proof of citizenship, delivered on the spot, of anyone they think might have a chance of being in the country illegally, with whom they have legal contact. What "legal contact" means in this context is not defined, but just tonight I've heard at least two politicians, including Senator Robert Menendez (D.NJ), say that the term "legal contact" can mean any contact at all that is not illegal, and that the cop merely stopping to talk to someone could qualify under common legal usage.

So, please point out the parts where the law states that cops are only supposed to check the residency or citizenship status of people for whom they have probable cause to investigate.

EDIT: Oh, and when you find that part, also explain how that rule never existed before in AZ law, and thus justifies the invention of this new law.
Last edited by Muravyets on Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Muravyets
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Postby Muravyets » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:07 pm

Our Constitution wrote:
Muravyets wrote:
Cobhanglica wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:
Our Constitution wrote:They are not under U.S. Jurisdiction.

False.


But they are not American citizens and do not have the rights that come with citizenship. You are not entitled to live in the United States simply by being alive.

If they are in the US, they are under US jurisdiction and subject to US law -- including the protections that come with it.



That is a mis-interpretation of the U.S. Constitution's 14th Amendment. A Mexican Citizen in the United States is under Mexican Jurisdiction through the Mexican Consulate / Embassy. These are very well crafted matters of International Diplomacy.

You are quite simply wrong my friend.

It's not an interpretation of the 14th Amendment at all, actually. And, uh, no, not every foreign national within the US has diplomatic immunity. Only foreign officials with such immunity are under the jurisdiction of their own countries even when they are physically in another country. Try again, if you're hoping to be right about something.
Last edited by Muravyets on Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Our Constitution
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Postby Our Constitution » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:09 pm

Muravyets wrote:It's not an interpretation of the 14th Amendment at all, actually. Try again, if you're hoping to be right about something.


Perhaps you would like to elaborate?

Amendment XIV
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
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Muravyets
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Postby Muravyets » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:10 pm

Cobhanglica wrote:
New Chalcedon wrote:
Cobhanglica wrote:
I'm not saying that they are the only group to do so. What I am saying is that they clamor for more rights as Americans from on side of their mouths and from the other proclaim the greatness of Mexico. There is nothing wrong with taking pride in your heritage (as long as it doesn't exceed your pride in America), but it doesn't exactly display loyalty or a desire to assimilate when every "immigrant rights" march is nothing but a flood of foreign flags and languages.


They said that about the Irish some years ago, you know. Again, how do you like your crow?


What do the Irish have to do with this? It doesn't matter which country you come from; you can't show more loyalty to your old country than to America and expect to be accepted.

Exactly! This doesn't apply to the Irish! They're white! You'd never know just by looking at them that they're here illegally. Not like those Mexicans.
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Tekania
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Postby Tekania » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:10 pm

Cobhanglica wrote:I'm not saying that they are the only group to do so. What I am saying is that they clamor for more rights as Americans from on side of their mouths and from the other proclaim the greatness of Mexico.


No.... Just simply, no... That's not what is going on at all.

Cobhanglica wrote: There is nothing wrong with taking pride in your heritage (as long as it doesn't exceed your pride in America), but it doesn't exactly display loyalty or a desire to assimilate when every "immigrant rights" march is nothing but a flood of foreign flags and languages.


Foreign flags and languages? here in America? This country is built upon the amalgamation of influxed foreign cultures and languages.... This is fucking NORMAL activity in America and SHOULD be... Well, at least to REAL Americans like myself.
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Muravyets
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Postby Muravyets » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:11 pm

Our Constitution wrote:
Muravyets wrote:It's not an interpretation of the 14th Amendment at all, actually. Try again, if you're hoping to be right about something.


Perhaps you would like to elaborate?

Amendment XIV
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Elaboration: I was not referring to the 14th Amendment.

Also, kindly see my edit to that post, because that was something you were even more laughably wrong about.
Last edited by Muravyets on Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Our Constitution
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Postby Our Constitution » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:16 pm

Muravyets wrote:
Our Constitution wrote:
Muravyets wrote:It's not an interpretation of the 14th Amendment at all, actually. Try again, if you're hoping to be right about something.


Perhaps you would like to elaborate?

Amendment XIV
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Elaboration: I was not referring to the 14th Amendment.

Also, kindly see my edit to that post, because that was something you were even more laughably wrong about.


Perhaps you would like to further clarify your case by reading Sec. 1992 of Revised Statutes that was put together by the same Congress that put Amendment XIV into place.

In any case, you are so "laughably" wrong, it may not even be worth discussing any of this with you until you have gone back and reviewed your legal position.
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User avatar
Cobhanglica
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1813
Founded: Feb 01, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Cobhanglica » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:16 pm

Muravyets wrote:
Cobhanglica wrote:
New Chalcedon wrote:
Cobhanglica wrote:
I'm not saying that they are the only group to do so. What I am saying is that they clamor for more rights as Americans from on side of their mouths and from the other proclaim the greatness of Mexico. There is nothing wrong with taking pride in your heritage (as long as it doesn't exceed your pride in America), but it doesn't exactly display loyalty or a desire to assimilate when every "immigrant rights" march is nothing but a flood of foreign flags and languages.


They said that about the Irish some years ago, you know. Again, how do you like your crow?


What do the Irish have to do with this? It doesn't matter which country you come from; you can't show more loyalty to your old country than to America and expect to be accepted.

Exactly! This doesn't apply to the Irish! They're white! You'd never know just by looking at them that they're here illegally. Not like those Mexicans.



Actually, one of the few illegals to be physically tracked down and deported recently was Irish. And for that matter, the Irish aren't the only group that would not be suspected much of being in the country illegally. Would you assume that an Asian man walking down the street is here illegally? What about a black person or an Asian Indian? The only reason Mexicans are scrutinized more than others is that most of the illegal aliens in America are from Mexico. Still, I think an American of Mexican descent going about his business like a normal citizen will be harassed far less than a group of young, poorly dressed men loitering in public spaces waiting for someone to hire them as day laborers.
Cobhanglica's top officials
President: George Rockwell
Sec. of Foreign Relations: Martin Lansing
Sec. of Defense: General James Arnold
Sec. of Trade: Henry Ford Smith


My Political Compass:
Economic Left/Right: 4.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 4.72

User avatar
The Cat-Tribe
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5548
Founded: Jan 18, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby The Cat-Tribe » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:19 pm

Our Constitution wrote:
The Corparation wrote:
Alcanso wrote:I'm 100% for it. IT's a ant-Illegal bill NOT an anti-immigration bill

Fact:
- there are 20,000,000 (+) Illegals/ undocumented people in this country
- 75-80% of who are hispanic.
- All Aliens have to have documentation on them (IT's A FEDERAL LAW LOOK IT UP) (that means even a LEAGAL immigrant who doesn't have their papers on them can be throw in jail and or a fine)
-they're only enforcing our immigration laws WHICH SOME OF THEM HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR 60 YEARS

-Illegals ARE LAW BREAKERS. SO that means the only rights they get are a right to an attorney and no unreasonable punishment.

Under this law you could be deported for failing to carry your birth certificate/green card/visa/student visa/passport/drivers liscense. Some people don't have drivers liscenses and native born citizens don't have to carry around their birth certifacatees and passports. Law Breakers Don't have rights you say? Well if you do an illeagal U-turn, jaywalk or any other trivial offense you are a lawbreaker. A murder suspect is far more dangerous than an illeagal and they have the right to defend themselves in court. Why should a suspected not be allowed to prove their legal in a fair trail?


A few ways to respond to this.

"murder suspect" - the key word here is "suspect"
"convicted murdered" - the key word here is "convicted"

The other part of your suggestion is that I can do something illegal, lets say jaywalking, and I get picked up and deported for not having my papers. How would they know which country to deport me to? Are you suggesting that I'm going to be deported by default to Mexico?

Lets consider another term:
"Suspect Foreign National Illegally Trespassing in the United States without Documentation"
How do you know they aren't part of Foreign Spy Network? or part of a Mexican Program to Demographically Re-Engineer the United States for an eventual take-over? Or that they aren't "Astro-Turfing" Sovereign U.S. Territory for the same?

I'm sure most are just here to get a job, make money, and send it home.

I have another proposition: We consider these Foreign Nationals as part of an Exchange Program for Job Training. We send them back to Mexico so that they can put the skills they have learned here to practical use to improve Mexico.

The People of Mexico, and indeed from all around the World are our brothers & sisters, and I will conclude my rant with this. When George Washington was leading his forces against the British he would inspire his troops with readings from Thomas Paine and I quote: "“The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.” That single sentence is what identified and set in stone the defining trait of the American Creed and what seperated Americans from everyone else. However, the existential survival of that creedo and legacy is what we all struggle to preserve. If this is the Creedo of the Mexican people then so be it. Let them join US in Union and become One Nation. But until such guarantees and such a peace can be concluded, they are foreign nationals illegally trespassing and it is the duty of American to send them away until such a future time that such an eternal assurance can be made.

The most important thing though, is that we adopt a Consistent National Policy on this issue and in our relations with these Foreign Nationals and the Mexican people. Ask yourself if these people are immigrating here is evidence of the Mexican People's need to expand for "more breathing room"

To me, they are just State Citizens of Mexico. In my opinion, the only way they should become U.S. Citizens is for Mexico to join the U.S. or for them to be Naturalized through the traditional Naturalization process.


1. You all, especially Our Constitution seem to be conveniently ignoring that the protections of most U.S. Constitution provisions apply to "persons" NOT "U.S. Citizens." As Fanharmia explained at length here, SCOTUS has consistently upheld the basic rights of non-citizens.

2. It takes an bizarrely limited view of reality to imagine that only illegal immigrants will be impacted by this law. Arizona's SB 1070 requires all police offices to determine the immigration status of ANY person whenever there is a "reasonable suspicion" that the person is "unlawfully present." No one seems to be able to define what this reasonable suspicion will be -- other than race, skin color, or ethnicity. REGARDLESS, citizens and non-citizens alike will be harassed in violation of the Fourth Amendment under this law.
I quit (again).
The Altani Confederacy wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:With that, I am done with these shenanigans. Do as thou wilt.

Can't miss you until you're gone, Ambassador. Seriously, your delegation is like one of those stores that has a "Going Out Of Business" sale for twenty years. Stay or go, already.*snip*
"Don't give me no shit because . . . I've been Tired . . ." ~ Pixies
With that, "he put his boots on, he took a face from the Ancient Gallery, and he walked on down the Hall . . ."

User avatar
Muravyets
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12755
Founded: Aug 18, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Muravyets » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:19 pm

Cobhanglica wrote:
Muravyets wrote:
Cobhanglica wrote:
New Chalcedon wrote:
Cobhanglica wrote:
I'm not saying that they are the only group to do so. What I am saying is that they clamor for more rights as Americans from on side of their mouths and from the other proclaim the greatness of Mexico. There is nothing wrong with taking pride in your heritage (as long as it doesn't exceed your pride in America), but it doesn't exactly display loyalty or a desire to assimilate when every "immigrant rights" march is nothing but a flood of foreign flags and languages.


They said that about the Irish some years ago, you know. Again, how do you like your crow?


What do the Irish have to do with this? It doesn't matter which country you come from; you can't show more loyalty to your old country than to America and expect to be accepted.

Exactly! This doesn't apply to the Irish! They're white! You'd never know just by looking at them that they're here illegally. Not like those Mexicans.



Actually, one of the few illegals to be physically tracked down and deported recently was Irish. And for that matter, the Irish aren't the only group that would not be suspected much of being in the country illegally. Would you assume that an Asian man walking down the street is here illegally? What about a black person or an Asian Indian? The only reason Mexicans are scrutinized more than others is that most of the illegal aliens in America are from Mexico. Still, I think an American of Mexican descent going about his business like a normal citizen will be harassed far less than a group of young, poorly dressed men loitering in public spaces waiting for someone to hire them as day laborers.

Any number of whom could be born American citizens -- or have you not noticed the tanked economy and sky-high unemployment numbers lately?

So answer this frikkin challenge already: Look at a street full of people. Point out to me which ones are here illegally. How are you going to do it? Tell me.
Last edited by Muravyets on Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kick back at Cafe Muravyets
And check out my other RP, too. (Don't take others' word for it -- see for yourself. ;) )
I agree with Muravyets because she scares me. -- Verdigroth
However, I am still not the topic of this thread.

User avatar
The Cat-Tribe
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5548
Founded: Jan 18, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby The Cat-Tribe » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:20 pm

Our Constitution wrote:
Muravyets wrote:It's not an interpretation of the 14th Amendment at all, actually. Try again, if you're hoping to be right about something.


Perhaps you would like to elaborate?

Amendment XIV
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


what part of ANY PERSON do you not understand?
I quit (again).
The Altani Confederacy wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:With that, I am done with these shenanigans. Do as thou wilt.

Can't miss you until you're gone, Ambassador. Seriously, your delegation is like one of those stores that has a "Going Out Of Business" sale for twenty years. Stay or go, already.*snip*
"Don't give me no shit because . . . I've been Tired . . ." ~ Pixies
With that, "he put his boots on, he took a face from the Ancient Gallery, and he walked on down the Hall . . ."

User avatar
Muravyets
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12755
Founded: Aug 18, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Muravyets » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:21 pm

The Cat-Tribe wrote:
Our Constitution wrote:
Muravyets wrote:It's not an interpretation of the 14th Amendment at all, actually. Try again, if you're hoping to be right about something.


Perhaps you would like to elaborate?

Amendment XIV
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


what part of ANY PERSON do you not understand?

Maybe the part where it applies to people he feels like pissing on and yelling RAWR! over to show how concerned he is for law and order.
Kick back at Cafe Muravyets
And check out my other RP, too. (Don't take others' word for it -- see for yourself. ;) )
I agree with Muravyets because she scares me. -- Verdigroth
However, I am still not the topic of this thread.

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