New Arizona Immigration Law Poll

[DaWoad]

Look, Its either you come into the United State or Mexico legally, or both country's completely open there borders to each other.

false dichotomy. There are a multitude of other possibilities.

Like? and why are we complaining about the United States immigration policys and laws, look at what Mexico does to illegal immigrants, its horrifying.

like
1) opening immigration laws slightly
2) Closing Immigration Laws
3)implementing plans to allow current illegals the opportunity to become full citizens while cracking down on illegals in another way (reduce the "need" for illegals by opening laws slightly or increase the "cost" by increasing penalties against those who are caught trafficking)
4)no change
etc. etc. etc.

and this isn't about Mexico's policy (nor about your own blatant racism) this is about Arizona's law

hmmmm Mexicans are not a race (idk how many times ive said this) and It is just as much Mexico's problem.

no they are not which doesn't mean you are not being racist and no . .. no it's not read the OP and stop trying to worm your way out of this by shifting the goalposts.

So its not Mexico's problem that many of its citizens are trying to enter the United States illegally?

Not in this thread it isn't. Again cease with the attempted threadjack/goalpost shifting and get back to the topic of THIS thread which is the law you have been trying to defend.

[Grave_n_idle]

Look, Its either you come into the United State or Mexico legally, or both country's completely open there borders to each other.

false dichotomy. There are a multitude of other possibilities.

Like? and why are we complaining about the United States immigration policys and laws, look at what Mexico does to illegal immigrants, its horrifying.

like
1) opening immigration laws slightly
2) Closing Immigration Laws
3)implementing plans to allow current illegals the opportunity to become full citizens while cracking down on illegals in another way (reduce the "need" for illegals by opening laws slightly or increase the "cost" by increasing penalties against those who are caught trafficking)
4)no change
etc. etc. etc.

and this isn't about Mexico's policy (nor about your own blatant racism) this is about Arizona's law

hmmmm Mexicans are not a race (idk how many times ive said this) and It is just as much Mexico's problem.

no they are not which doesn't mean you are not being racist and no . .. no it's not read the OP and stop trying to worm your way out of this by shifting the goalposts.

So its not Mexico's problem that many of its citizens are trying to enter the United States illegally?

Discussing Mexico's 'problems' is (not only off-topic but also) something of a fruitless exercise. Obviously there are problems in Mexico. If Mexico was the perfect incarnation of Heaven on Earth, immigrants wouldn't be trying to get into the US. Obviously.

So, you're attempt to shift the focus is not only irrelevant, but somewhat deceptive. No one ever claimed Mexico didn't have problems, or that Mexico couldn't help improve the immigration situation. So, acting like someone WAS defending that... it's somewhere between a strawman and a complete red-herring.

[Muravyets]

Of course, since illegal immigrants get insurance, get licenses, get SSNs, and live with them in the US for years on end, even though they may not have perfect driving records, none of this BS about driver's documents proving citizenship/residency status really carries much weight in the real world, does it?

If they have not signed immigration papers we should not treat them as if they are a U.S. citizen.

That remark is both ridiculous and totally irrelevant to what I said. First, it has absolutely no relationship to my post, therefore it is irrelevant. Second, we should treat them the same way we treat all other foreign nationals on our soil, even the ones who commit crimes -- we apply US law to them, since they are in US jurisdiction. Gosh, sorry if it upsets you that the US doesn't maintain a whole separate set of rules for people who aren't citizens, but I guess when the legal system was developed the legal experts who did that over time really didn't care what you would think of it.

[Muravyets]

You notice how most of the people that oppose these sort of laws don't live in places where illegals are messing stuff up, raising crime rates, getting hospitals shut down, etc? Reading this thread has shown how troubled the state of Arizona must be to have outsiders mucking up the works and not even supporting basic immigration laws, laws that are followed to the letter in Mexico.
My suggestion is go to Arizona, see the problems for yourself, than make your hasty judgements and detached condemnations. At least you'll have first-hand knowledge.

Notice how people who can't justify their support for a racist law try to invalidate the arguments against them by making up totally unsupported fantasies about their opponents?

[Muravyets]

Of course, since illegal immigrants get insurance, get licenses, get SSNs, and live with them in the US for years on end, even though they may not have perfect driving records, none of this BS about driver's documents proving citizenship/residency status really carries much weight in the real world, does it?

If they have not signed immigration papers we should not treat them as if they are a U.S. citizen.

How many people in the US of A have Signed immigration papers do you think? More importantly how many people carry their passport/birth certificate with them at all times?

if not born here and not signed the papers that are now stored in archives then you are not. If you are born here or sign the papers and are stored in archives then you are!

This is really getting boring, but it is the wall in front of the supporters of this law and they run headlong into it every single time, without fail or exception:

Look at a street full of people. Point out to me which of them are here illegally. Tell me how you can tell which ones don't have their signed papers stored in the special archive and which ones do. Tell me how you're going to pick which ones to stop and challenge for their "papers please."

[Muravyets]

Of course, since illegal immigrants get insurance, get licenses, get SSNs, and live with them in the US for years on end, even though they may not have perfect driving records, none of this BS about driver's documents proving citizenship/residency status really carries much weight in the real world, does it?

If they have not signed immigration papers we should not treat them as if they are a U.S. citizen.

The protections of rights in the US exist for any person, not just for citizens.

Well, Constitutional protections don't extend to illegal immigrants but of course, we can't assume that someone who is Hispanic is illegal, and yaddah yaddah.

I am saying they can be hispanic but be US citizen but they have to have the papers that are stored by the GOV.

And where does the GOV store these papers? Up the AZ governor's ass, maybe? You have no clue what you're talking about, do you? You're just blindly making shit up, aren't you?

[Muravyets]

70% of Arizonian voters are racist bigots.

Maybe they're concerned with the crime rates?

"...at the end of 2003, approximately 267,000 illegal aliens were incarcerated in U.S. correctional facilities, as follows
[*]46,000 in Federal prisons
[*]74,000 in state prisons
[*]147,000 in local jails
The article also notes that approximately 27% of all prisoners in Federal custody are criminal illegal aliens and the majority (63%) of those are Mexican citizens."

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05646r.pdf

They're not going to lower crime by committing crimes of their own.

[Nordicus]

What's your plan then? how do we deal with the problem of illegal immigration? do we just let them in?

There are already the mechanisms in place to deal with it.

With 7m-20m illegal immigrants already in our nation, and approximately a quarter of our prison population being illegal immigrants, those mechanisms seem to be rather inefficient, if not wholly faulty.

Which would indicate that those mechanisms should be reformed or given more funding not that you should layer more laws on top of the existing ones.

The problem is that there is a minority (which, it is entirely fair to say, includes quite a number of people who don't have to deal much with any of the problems caused by illegal immigration, as well as illegal immigrants who received citizenship after entering the country) who routinely try to block any such reform, and there is also resistance from companies which profit off of exploiting the illegal immigrants.

[Grave_n_idle]

Look, Its either you come into the United State or Mexico legally, or both country's completely open there borders to each other.

Why?

I mean, it's cute, but why would you think it would have any significance in the real world?

There are other options than completely open borders, or completely closed borders. Which is just as well, because either extreme is unlikely to be entirely helpful (or even practical) in this situation.

We could have open borders, if we had a relationship with Mexico more like the relationships between states in the Union. We could maybe have closed borders if we were not talking about a landmass the size of the US.

As it is, our fascination with trying to lock down the southern border, tight - is a doomed obsession. All we'll ever do, is create an obvious barrier, which will always be circumvented, somehow. And there's the problem with immigration in the US - the border IS unsecure, and impossible to make secure - and that means we need a different approach.

We create a hidden population of 'illegals', by making it so hard to get in legally, and so risky to be found. A better approach would be to legalise EVERY person that tries to cross the border with some kind of temporary legal status, registering them as workers, registering them for tax and social security, etc, and making it possible to not only track them, but also to actually ENFORCE employment laws in this country.

Once companies realised they couldn't count on the illegal wage earner to keep wages down, hiring illegals would become self-defeating. An equilibrium would soon be reached at which point further immigrants from Mexico would find themselves unable to find work, and the pressure to cross the border into the US would die down. Immigration would be self limiting.

[Muravyets]

You notice how most of the people that oppose these sort of laws don't live in places where illegals are messing stuff up, raising crime rates, getting hospitals shut down, etc? Reading this thread has shown how troubled the state of Arizona must be to have outsiders mucking up the works and not even supporting basic immigration laws, laws that are followed to the letter in Mexico.
My suggestion is go to Arizona, see the problems for yourself, than make your hasty judgements and detached condemnations. At least you'll have first-hand knowledge.

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the crime rate in Arizona has fallen pretty regularly since 1995. But it's cool that you have "first-hand knowledge" and everyone else is just ignorant about the facts.





But hey, with violent crime rates the lowest they've been since 1971, and property crime rates being the lowest they've been since 1966, I'm sure there must have been a burning need for newer, more invasive laws.

That obviously means Arizona would be a veritable utopia if there were no immigrants at all there.

Return the state to the Anasazi, that's what I say. :nods:

[Muravyets]

I 100% oppose the new law. I am in the U.S. Air Force, and I am station in Arizona. That is absolutely racial profiling. They ought to be ashamed of themselves.

How is it racial profiling Mexicans are not a race.

My elementary school teachers used to tell us there was no such thing as a stupid question, but they were wrong, and this^^ proves it.

[Muravyets]

Well if they have an extremely thick accent for one, and yes you can spot them on the street many sit and wait for a "gringo" to show up and take them to work for low prices. We wouldn't target Mexican immigrants as much if there weren't so many of them.

Ahhh, it's so easy then. Let's just pass a law making it illegal for Latinos to sit outside. Problem solved.

And note that anyone with an "extremely thick accent" is obviously Latino, thus obviously illegal, thus --- DEPORTED! Woot! That would be a very easy way to get rid of LA governor Bobby Jindal. Ever hear his accent? Wowzers.

[Muravyets]

It isn't that hard to carry some form of ID that states you're legal around with you... brb drivers license.

Is it really that hard to read the thread? You can't even manage the last 10 pages of it?

[Muravyets]

The reason why I "pick" on latinos is because they are the majority of illegal immigrants, you can name another group that I can look at and I will change my mind then.

Latinos with odd Bavarian accents.

I'm so reminded of the movie Born in East LA in which Cheech Marin plays a Latino-American, born in this country and not even able to speak any Spanish, who goes down to the border to meet a friend visiting from Mexico. Only he accidentally wanders across the border and they won't let him back in because he doesn't have his passport with him. (His friend passes through with no problem and spends the movie at his house, waiting for him.) So Cheech hooks up with coyotes to get smuggled back into his own country, and somehow along the way, he winds up training a bunch of Koreans how to act Latino so they'll pass for American.

[Muravyets]

You said "Yay for American Stupidity" Whos stupidity were you referring to then?

I even said that the whole thick accent thing is kind of a bad thing to do, I never said I was in full favor of it.

So, you're admitting that you deliberately went out of your way to propose a really dumb suggestion?

[Muravyets]

I'm not a rascist scumbag either, as Mexicans are not a race.

So you're telling us that you're just an anti-Mexican scumbag?

I said it would help a little but I thought it was fucked up.

More than a little. Try 100% idiotic, and you really shouldn't have posted it, nor should you really waste time getting all huffy when you get called on how ridiculously dumb it was.

I also don't call people stupid or there arguments.

Good thing other people will do it for you.

[Muravyets]

Okay I'll play your game, lets start with me, I have a legitimate birth certificate saying I was born in the USA so I am in effect a legal United States citizen, I also carry around photo I.D with me. My dad was also born in the United States and his Dad before him.

Barack Obama has a legitimate birth certificate saying he was born in the USA, too. Doesn't do him much good, though. And illegal immigrants have lots of photo IDs. And do you carry your ancestors' papers around with you, too? Can you prove how many generations your blood has been here to justify the trouble of keeping you?

[Muravyets]

Okay I'll play your game, lets start with me, I have a legitimate birth certificate saying I was born in the USA so I am in effect a legal United States citizen, I also carry around photo I.D with me. My dad was also born in the United States and his Dad before him.

Do you carry your birth certificate with you at all times? And your photo ID that you carry, you carry it 100% of the time? Also is it a passport, because if not it isn't necessarily proof of citizenship.

Yes I carry my id whenever possible. No I do not carry my birth certificate at all times but If I was asked I would get it and show them. The police would then keep a record down and show that I am in fact a legal United States citizens born and raised.

You'll get it? While you're being held in custody for deportation?

[Muravyets]

I do care when its latinos to, if they are legal then they should have proof of some kind. I have no problem with LEGAL immigrants. I hope they take it seriously when asked and provide there evidence.

And if the latinos are not immigrants but were born in this country, what do they have to prove then to suit you that they are innocent of being here illegally?

Getting supporters of this law to focus on the simple and obvious fact that there have been latino US citizens born in this country for as long as there has been a country (even before that miserable excuse for a state, Arizona, became a state) is like trying to pin down a blob of mercury.

[Muravyets]

its not racist, Mexicans are not a race.

And you can tell just from looking at someone whether they are Mexican?

Ya I can look at someone and make educated guess- the guy speaks Spanish fluently with an accent, obviously hes either Latino(Mexican or another spanish speaking nation), Spanish, or learned Spanish very well in the US. Its not about race.

That's technically and legally called "racial profiling", and that is why you got challenged about whether you are choosing to be a racist scumbag on purpose.

[Muravyets]

First of all Hispanic is not a race, <snip racist justifications>

It's a race according to the US census. Deal with it.

[Jaunty tunes]

We create a hidden population of 'illegals', by making it so hard to get in legally, and so risky to be found. A better approach would be to legalise EVERY person that tries to cross the border with some kind of temporary legal status, registering them as workers, registering them for tax and social security, etc, and making it possible to not only track them, but also to actually ENFORCE employment laws in this country.

Once companies realised they couldn't count on the illegal wage earner to keep wages down, hiring illegals would become self-defeating. An equilibrium would soon be reached at which point further immigrants from Mexico would find themselves unable to find work, and the pressure to cross the border into the US would die down. Immigration would be self limiting.

that would be create an open border. Everyone would be able to cross and look for work with full legal protection.

You dont need to do spot checks on the street or to change the border policies. All you need to do is enforce a law that required employers to check the identity of people through the government. Lets face it every legal citizen has an address, date of birth and family members the government already knows about which could be easily used to generate an employment or government number. It could just be your tax number. If the citizen had a working number or something that had to be given to the authorities along with a business number of their employer very soon after gaining employment it would be much harder for illegal immigrants to get work.
To confirm they are not secretly using someone else’s the government could easily send a letter to the newly employed person at their address with a bit of information about how to declare their tax.

And those that decided to ignore the law of reporting new employees to the government could be financially penalised to such a degree that if deliberate and repeated practices of ignoring this law could be proven the government auctions of the business and removes their assets.

All you need to add after that is a system that recognizes that people with many jobs may very well be selling their working number to illegal migrants. But in selling the working number you would run the risk of identity theft and you would still need to pay tax.

However the Arizona law is alright. In my opinion everyone should be carrying a piece of ID when in public just incase something happens. It is just that a cursory glance by a police officer may very well not identify a fake ID and the police have better things to be doing then checking out peoples ID who will mostly be legal.

[Muravyets]

We create a hidden population of 'illegals', by making it so hard to get in legally, and so risky to be found. A better approach would be to legalise EVERY person that tries to cross the border with some kind of temporary legal status, registering them as workers, registering them for tax and social security, etc, and making it possible to not only track them, but also to actually ENFORCE employment laws in this country.

Once companies realised they couldn't count on the illegal wage earner to keep wages down, hiring illegals would become self-defeating. An equilibrium would soon be reached at which point further immigrants from Mexico would find themselves unable to find work, and the pressure to cross the border into the US would die down. Immigration would be self limiting.

that would be create an open border. Everyone would be able to cross and look for work with full legal protection.

You dont need to do spot checks on the street or to change the border policies. All you need to do is enforce a law that required employers to check the identity of people through the government. Lets face it every legal citizen has an address, date of birth and family members the government already knows about which could be easily used to generate an employment or government number. It could just be your tax number. If the citizen had a working number or something that had to be given to the authorities along with a business number of their employer very soon after gaining employment it would be much harder for illegal immigrants to get work.
To confirm they are not secretly using someone else’s the government could easily send a letter to the newly employed person at their address with a bit of information about how to declare their tax.

And those that decided to ignore the law of reporting new employees to the government could be financially penalised to such a degree that if deliberate and repeated practices of ignoring this law could be proven the government auctions of the business and removes their assets.

All you need to add after that is a system that recognizes that people with many jobs may very well be selling their working number to illegal migrants. But in selling the working number you would run the risk of identity theft and you would still need to pay tax.

However the Arizona law is alright. In my opinion everyone should be carrying a piece of ID when in public just incase something happens. It is just that a cursory glance by a police officer may very well not identify a fake ID and the police have better things to be doing then checking out peoples ID who will mostly be legal.

In case something happens? Like what? Some racist cracker with a badge deciding he feels like hassling someone just when you happen to be passing by? And if this law that you think is all right gives him such broad latitude to decide what's "reasonable" in dealing with you, what makes you think your little snip of ID is going to help you, if you happen to be the kind of person he really feels like getting rid of?

Yeah, you're right, that's a great system. We'll just pad ourselves round with magic papers in the hope they'll protect us from abuses of government power. What do we need that stupid old Constitution for when we've got papers to produce on arbitrary demand?

[Whole Conviction]

First of all Hispanic is not a race, <snip racist justifications>

It's a race according to the US census. Deal with it.

Yeah. Race is a term used very very loosely. 'Mexican' is of course not a race. 'Latino' can be said to be. I really can't stand when people use semantics to defuse charges of racism.

[Buffett and Colbert]

First of all Hispanic is not a race, Mexicans are a cross between spaniards and natives from spain, which makes them Caucasian-mongoloid, half white still

I couldn't tell if someone was mexican just by looking at them, but yes I can make an educated guess if they are from mexico or another spanish speaking country.

You could make a guess. But it sure as hell wouldn't be educated.