New Arizona Immigration Law Poll

[North Calaveras]

Grave.....was I wrong about that statement that you can see them asking for jobs?

I just showed you trying to pretend you didn't say EXACTLY what I showed you said.

Let's not try to shift the goalposts and pretend we were talking about something else.

In the meantime - I stil lthink you're a Mexican illegal. Prove you're not, or get out of America.

I could say the same for you, and I do have proof if I post a picture of me with my birth certificate out and my id would you give up?

Maybe. Such things could be faked, of course.

But why are you putting up so much resistance?

It's your responsibility to prove you're here legally. Isn't it?

If I'm being challenged to my citizen ship then yes I take that seriously and will provide evidence to the police if they ask me other than the fact that Ive also lived here for my whole life.

[Grave_n_idle]

Grave.....was I wrong about that statement that you can see them asking for jobs?

I just showed you trying to pretend you didn't say EXACTLY what I showed you said.

Let's not try to shift the goalposts and pretend we were talking about something else.

In the meantime - I stil lthink you're a Mexican illegal. Prove you're not, or get out of America.

I could say the same for you, and I do have proof if I post a picture of me with my birth certificate out and my id would you give up?

Maybe. Such things could be faked, of course.

But why are you putting up so much resistance?

It's your responsibility to prove you're here legally. Isn't it?

If I'm being challenged to my citizen ship then yes I take that seriously and will provide evidence to the police if they ask me other than the fact that Ive also lived here for my whole life.

So... you take it seriously when it's YOU, but you don't care when it's random latinos being assumed guilty till proven innocent?


You don't see the whole 'presumed guilty' situation to be topsy-turvy and, even, unconstitutional?

[North Calaveras]

Grave.....was I wrong about that statement that you can see them asking for jobs?

I just showed you trying to pretend you didn't say EXACTLY what I showed you said.

Let's not try to shift the goalposts and pretend we were talking about something else.

In the meantime - I stil lthink you're a Mexican illegal. Prove you're not, or get out of America.

I could say the same for you, and I do have proof if I post a picture of me with my birth certificate out and my id would you give up?

Maybe. Such things could be faked, of course.

But why are you putting up so much resistance?

It's your responsibility to prove you're here legally. Isn't it?

If I'm being challenged to my citizen ship then yes I take that seriously and will provide evidence to the police if they ask me other than the fact that Ive also lived here for my whole life.

So... you take it seriously when it's YOU, but you don't care when it's random latinos being assumed guilty till proven innocent?


You don't see the whole 'presumed guilty' situation to be topsy-turvy and, even, unconstitutional?

I do care when its latinos to, if they are legal then they should have proof of some kind. I have no problem with LEGAL immigrants. I hope they take it seriously when asked and provide there evidence.

[Angelicpeople]

Grave.....was I wrong about that statement that you can see them asking for jobs?

I just showed you trying to pretend you didn't say EXACTLY what I showed you said.

Let's not try to shift the goalposts and pretend we were talking about something else.

In the meantime - I stil lthink you're a Mexican illegal. Prove you're not, or get out of America.

I could say the same for you, and I do have proof if I post a picture of me with my birth certificate out and my id would you give up?

Maybe. Such things could be faked, of course.

But why are you putting up so much resistance?

It's your responsibility to prove you're here legally. Isn't it?

If I'm being challenged to my citizen ship then yes I take that seriously and will provide evidence to the police if they ask me other than the fact that Ive also lived here for my whole life.

To me they're wasting their time and racial profiling. There's so many other important things they should be worried about. They're making this a top priority. If you're going to make it a priority, please be smarter about it.

[North Calaveras]

Grave.....was I wrong about that statement that you can see them asking for jobs?

I just showed you trying to pretend you didn't say EXACTLY what I showed you said.

Let's not try to shift the goalposts and pretend we were talking about something else.

In the meantime - I stil lthink you're a Mexican illegal. Prove you're not, or get out of America.

I could say the same for you, and I do have proof if I post a picture of me with my birth certificate out and my id would you give up?

Maybe. Such things could be faked, of course.

But why are you putting up so much resistance?

It's your responsibility to prove you're here legally. Isn't it?

If I'm being challenged to my citizen ship then yes I take that seriously and will provide evidence to the police if they ask me other than the fact that Ive also lived here for my whole life.

To me they're wasting their time and racial profiling. There's so many other important things they should be worried about. They're making this a top priority. If you're going to make it a priority, please be smarter about it.

its not racist, Mexicans are not a race.

[Dyakovo]

its not racist, Mexicans are not a race.

And you can tell just from looking at someone whether they are Mexican?

[Grave_n_idle]

Nope, and that's where the problem lies with your assumption. "Illegal immigration inherently has problems" =/= "Illegal immigration being illegal is the sole problem."

There's the problem, for sure - but it's not mine. That's not an assumption I made.

People in this thread have been saying that their problem with illegal immigrants is that they are illegal. Countering that, by creating a situation where the actions were declared legal, and asking if those people STILL opposed doesn't create any assumption on my part, it merely questions the assumptions others have claimed as fact.

There are estimated to be somewhere between 7 and 20 million illegal immigrants in the country. That works out to be between ~2.3% and ~6.6% of the total population. So their share in the prison population is about four times their share in the general populace, if not higher. Yes, your math does appear to be rather shaky, or an example of that whole "Figures don't lie, but liars figure" concept that any numbers can be sufficiently twisted by someone determined enough.

Not at all - I didn't even attempt to extrapolate percentages, so how can I have 'twisted' the data?

In real terms, three times as many of our prison occupants (according to that source) are LEGAL immigrants/citizens, compared to the small proportion of illegal immigrants. Thus the 'crime rate' argument is nonsense - which is what I was responding to.

i.e. if a state was going to target a group for being responsible for crimes - legal immigrants and citizens commit more (three times more) crimes.

I would ask if perhaps there was a reason that they can't.

Why would that matter?

There are hundreds of possible reasons, not least being how long and expensive the process is, especially for people that might be trying to get out of immediate hardship.

[North Calaveras]

its not racist, Mexicans are not a race.

And you can tell just from looking at someone whether they are Mexican?

Ya I can look at someone and make educated guess- the guy speaks Spanish fluently with an accent, obviously hes either Latino(Mexican or another spanish speaking nation), Spanish, or learned Spanish very well in the US. Its not about race.

[Grave_n_idle]

Grave.....was I wrong about that statement that you can see them asking for jobs?

I just showed you trying to pretend you didn't say EXACTLY what I showed you said.

Let's not try to shift the goalposts and pretend we were talking about something else.

In the meantime - I stil lthink you're a Mexican illegal. Prove you're not, or get out of America.

I could say the same for you, and I do have proof if I post a picture of me with my birth certificate out and my id would you give up?

Maybe. Such things could be faked, of course.

But why are you putting up so much resistance?

It's your responsibility to prove you're here legally. Isn't it?

If I'm being challenged to my citizen ship then yes I take that seriously and will provide evidence to the police if they ask me other than the fact that Ive also lived here for my whole life.

So... you take it seriously when it's YOU, but you don't care when it's random latinos being assumed guilty till proven innocent?


You don't see the whole 'presumed guilty' situation to be topsy-turvy and, even, unconstitutional?

I do care when its latinos to, if they are legal then they should have proof of some kind. I have no problem with LEGAL immigrants. I hope they take it seriously when asked and provide there evidence.

I notice you (once again) avoided the constitutionality question. See - this is why people think you don't care about citizen rights when latinos are involved.

You're quite happy for people to be presumed guilty until proven innocent.

[North Calaveras]

Grave.....was I wrong about that statement that you can see them asking for jobs?

I just showed you trying to pretend you didn't say EXACTLY what I showed you said.

Let's not try to shift the goalposts and pretend we were talking about something else.

In the meantime - I stil lthink you're a Mexican illegal. Prove you're not, or get out of America.

I could say the same for you, and I do have proof if I post a picture of me with my birth certificate out and my id would you give up?

Maybe. Such things could be faked, of course.

But why are you putting up so much resistance?

It's your responsibility to prove you're here legally. Isn't it?

If I'm being challenged to my citizen ship then yes I take that seriously and will provide evidence to the police if they ask me other than the fact that Ive also lived here for my whole life.

So... you take it seriously when it's YOU, but you don't care when it's random latinos being assumed guilty till proven innocent?


You don't see the whole 'presumed guilty' situation to be topsy-turvy and, even, unconstitutional?

I do care when its latinos to, if they are legal then they should have proof of some kind. I have no problem with LEGAL immigrants. I hope they take it seriously when asked and provide there evidence.

I notice you (once again) avoided the constitutionality question. See - this is why people think you don't care about citizen rights when latinos are involved.

You're quite happy for people to be presumed guilty until proven innocent.

It may be unconstitutional(the government shits on the constitution anyways)I need to check on that

there are innocent until proven guilty, the cop walks up to the person and asks if he is illegal, he is still innocent in the cops eyes until he cannot provide evidence then he is indeed guilty, they are innocent until proven guilty.

[Dyakovo]

its not racist, Mexicans are not a race.

And you can tell just from looking at someone whether they are Mexican?

Ya I can look at someone and make educated guess- the guy speaks Spanish fluently with an accent, obviously hes either Latino(Mexican or another spanish speaking nation), Spanish, or learned Spanish very well in the US. Its not about race.

So this would be you admitting that no, you can't tell if someone is Mexican...
Which means you are making the determination that he's Mexican based on being him Hispanic, which is a "race".

[North Calaveras]

its not racist, Mexicans are not a race.

And you can tell just from looking at someone whether they are Mexican?

Ya I can look at someone and make educated guess- the guy speaks Spanish fluently with an accent, obviously hes either Latino(Mexican or another spanish speaking nation), Spanish, or learned Spanish very well in the US. Its not about race.

So this would be you admitting that no, you can't tell if someone is Mexican...
Which means you are making the determination that he's Mexican based on being him Hispanic, which is a "race".

First of all Hispanic is not a race, Mexicans are a cross between spaniards and natives from spain, which makes them Caucasian-mongoloid, half white still

I couldn't tell if someone was mexican just by looking at them, but yes I can make an educated guess if they are from mexico or another spanish speaking country.

[Grave_n_idle]

It may be unconstitutional(the government shits on the constitution anyways)I need to check on that

It's pretty funny that you admit, after this long in the debate, that you aren't even sure it's constitutionally legal.

there are innocent until proven guilty, the cop walks up to the person and asks if he is illegal, he is still innocent in the cops eyes until he cannot provide evidence then he is indeed guilty, they are innocent until proven guilty.

Clearly not, if the person can end up imprisoned/deported for failure to show the right evidence.

If the DEFAULT is to find you guilty of the 'crime' UNLESS you can prove you're innocent, then you are NOT 'presumed innocent'.

[Grave_n_idle]

its not racist, Mexicans are not a race.

And you can tell just from looking at someone whether they are Mexican?

Ya I can look at someone and make educated guess- the guy speaks Spanish fluently with an accent, obviously hes either Latino(Mexican or another spanish speaking nation), Spanish, or learned Spanish very well in the US. Its not about race.

So this would be you admitting that no, you can't tell if someone is Mexican...
Which means you are making the determination that he's Mexican based on being him Hispanic, which is a "race".

First of all Hispanic is not a race, Mexicans are a cross between spaniards and natives from spain, which makes them Caucasian-mongoloid, half white still

I couldn't tell if someone was mexican just by looking at them, but yes I can make an educated guess if they are from mexico or another spanish speaking country.

YOu can tell someone speaks spanish, just from looking at them?

[North Calaveras]

It may be unconstitutional(the government shits on the constitution anyways)I need to check on that

It's pretty funny that you admit, after this long in the debate, that you aren't even sure it's constitutionally legal.

there are innocent until proven guilty, the cop walks up to the person and asks if he is illegal, he is still innocent in the cops eyes until he cannot provide evidence then he is indeed guilty, they are innocent until proven guilty.

Clearly not, if the person can end up imprisoned/deported for failure to show the right evidence.

If the DEFAULT is to find you guilty of the 'crime' UNLESS you can prove you're innocent, then you are NOT 'presumed innocent'.

What's your plan then? how do we deal with the problem of illegal immigration? do we just let them in?

[Dyakovo]

its not racist, Mexicans are not a race.

And you can tell just from looking at someone whether they are Mexican?

Ya I can look at someone and make educated guess- the guy speaks Spanish fluently with an accent, obviously hes either Latino(Mexican or another spanish speaking nation), Spanish, or learned Spanish very well in the US. Its not about race.

So this would be you admitting that no, you can't tell if someone is Mexican...
Which means you are making the determination that he's Mexican based on being him Hispanic, which is a "race".

First of all Hispanic is not a race.

The U.S. Government disagrees.

[North Calaveras]

its not racist, Mexicans are not a race.

And you can tell just from looking at someone whether they are Mexican?

Ya I can look at someone and make educated guess- the guy speaks Spanish fluently with an accent, obviously hes either Latino(Mexican or another spanish speaking nation), Spanish, or learned Spanish very well in the US. Its not about race.

So this would be you admitting that no, you can't tell if someone is Mexican...
Which means you are making the determination that he's Mexican based on being him Hispanic, which is a "race".

First of all Hispanic is not a race.

The U.S. Government disagrees.

You do realize that they are indeed Mongoloid-Caucasian right? you can look it up its not hard to find.

[Dyakovo]

It may be unconstitutional(the government shits on the constitution anyways)I need to check on that

It's pretty funny that you admit, after this long in the debate, that you aren't even sure it's constitutionally legal.

there are innocent until proven guilty, the cop walks up to the person and asks if he is illegal, he is still innocent in the cops eyes until he cannot provide evidence then he is indeed guilty, they are innocent until proven guilty.

Clearly not, if the person can end up imprisoned/deported for failure to show the right evidence.

If the DEFAULT is to find you guilty of the 'crime' UNLESS you can prove you're innocent, then you are NOT 'presumed innocent'.

What's your plan then? how do we deal with the problem of illegal immigration? do we just let them in?

There are already the mechanisms in place to deal with it.

[Tekania]

Proof of insurance would not, or at should not be able to be denied, as an SSN is necessary to obtain insurance and all motorists are required to have proof of insurance in their vehicles.

The bold part is factually incorrect.

No, it doesn't appear to be. The penalties vary from state to state, but it seems that every state in the U.S. requires drivers to present their proof of insurance if an officer requests it after having pulled you over. I have never heard of any state that does not require proof of insurance, and a quick Google search supported this everywhere I looked.

Only if the vehicle is registered as being insured. Some states allow the registration of uninsured vehicles or the acceptance of proof of ability to pay claims personally in lieu of insurance; in either of those cases the operator is not required to furnish proof of insurance.

[North Calaveras]

It may be unconstitutional(the government shits on the constitution anyways)I need to check on that

It's pretty funny that you admit, after this long in the debate, that you aren't even sure it's constitutionally legal.

there are innocent until proven guilty, the cop walks up to the person and asks if he is illegal, he is still innocent in the cops eyes until he cannot provide evidence then he is indeed guilty, they are innocent until proven guilty.

Clearly not, if the person can end up imprisoned/deported for failure to show the right evidence.

If the DEFAULT is to find you guilty of the 'crime' UNLESS you can prove you're innocent, then you are NOT 'presumed innocent'.

What's your plan then? how do we deal with the problem of illegal immigration? do we just let them in?

There are already the mechanisms in place to deal with it.

Like?

[Angelicpeople]

its not racist, Mexicans are not a race.

And you can tell just from looking at someone whether they are Mexican?

Ya I can look at someone and make educated guess- the guy speaks Spanish fluently with an accent, obviously hes either Latino(Mexican or another spanish speaking nation), Spanish, or learned Spanish very well in the US. Its not about race.

Yeah, so you're saying the policemen are just going to pull over random people, not because they don't think they're of heritage of different races???

So let me ask you this, I'm of dominican descent, you can obviously tell with my physical features. So do you consider me mexican?

[Dyakovo]

It may be unconstitutional(the government shits on the constitution anyways)I need to check on that

It's pretty funny that you admit, after this long in the debate, that you aren't even sure it's constitutionally legal.

there are innocent until proven guilty, the cop walks up to the person and asks if he is illegal, he is still innocent in the cops eyes until he cannot provide evidence then he is indeed guilty, they are innocent until proven guilty.

Clearly not, if the person can end up imprisoned/deported for failure to show the right evidence.

If the DEFAULT is to find you guilty of the 'crime' UNLESS you can prove you're innocent, then you are NOT 'presumed innocent'.

What's your plan then? how do we deal with the problem of illegal immigration? do we just let them in?

There are already the mechanisms in place to deal with it.

Like?

INS & CBP

[North Calaveras]

its not racist, Mexicans are not a race.

And you can tell just from looking at someone whether they are Mexican?

Ya I can look at someone and make educated guess- the guy speaks Spanish fluently with an accent, obviously hes either Latino(Mexican or another spanish speaking nation), Spanish, or learned Spanish very well in the US. Its not about race.

Yeah, so you're saying the policemen are just going to pull over random people, not because they don't think they're of heritage of different races???

So let me ask you this, I'm of dominican descent, you can obviously tell with my physical features. So do you consider me mexican?

I have no idea who you are, as your behind a computer screen.

[Grave_n_idle]

It may be unconstitutional(the government shits on the constitution anyways)I need to check on that

It's pretty funny that you admit, after this long in the debate, that you aren't even sure it's constitutionally legal.

there are innocent until proven guilty, the cop walks up to the person and asks if he is illegal, he is still innocent in the cops eyes until he cannot provide evidence then he is indeed guilty, they are innocent until proven guilty.

Clearly not, if the person can end up imprisoned/deported for failure to show the right evidence.

If the DEFAULT is to find you guilty of the 'crime' UNLESS you can prove you're innocent, then you are NOT 'presumed innocent'.

What's your plan then? how do we deal with the problem of illegal immigration? do we just let them in?

Do you realise the bill we're discussing does NOTHING to prevent or control illegal immigration?

If someone is shown to be an illegal immigrant, the existing laws cover it. This law is entirely redundant on THAT front.

Which means - this law does nothing other than open the door to unconstitutional behaviour, that can be practically guaranteed to adversely impact Hispanic citizens and legal immigrants.


Sorry - I don't feel the NEED to offer an alternative to THAT.


There are MUCH better ways to control immigration - but this thread isn't really about that.

[Grave_n_idle]

its not racist, Mexicans are not a race.

And you can tell just from looking at someone whether they are Mexican?

Ya I can look at someone and make educated guess- the guy speaks Spanish fluently with an accent, obviously hes either Latino(Mexican or another spanish speaking nation), Spanish, or learned Spanish very well in the US. Its not about race.

Yeah, so you're saying the policemen are just going to pull over random people, not because they don't think they're of heritage of different races???

So let me ask you this, I'm of dominican descent, you can obviously tell with my physical features. So do you consider me mexican?

I have no idea who you are, as your behind a computer screen.

Irrelevant. You're capable of making just as good a judgement of his legal/illegal Mexican/not-Mexican status as you've claimed for people you've seen in the street.

i.e. You can't make a good judgement... which is the point you should have got from that.