Claim the Right to be Unhappy?

[Dyanderna]

Well, ask any bipolar person or other person on emotion suppressing drugs why they (mostly) don't like it.

This situation is not like someone being on emotion suppressants because they don't (correct me if i'm wrong) affect every single emotion under the sun and those people also have experienced emotion in the past, if someone new gets born into that world then they won't have the memory of emotion to fall back on and so they won't think it to be an abnormal thing.

[Major-Tom]

Probs try my luck in the territories, knowing the pros and cons. Interesting stuff, OP. That said, if I were, say 70 or something, I'd just go with the flow of whatever dystopia was being offered.

[Punished UMN]

Well, ask any bipolar person or other person on emotion suppressing drugs why they (mostly) don't like it.

This situation is not like someone being on emotion suppressants because they don't (correct me if i'm wrong) affect every single emotion under the sun and those people also have experienced emotion in the past, if someone new gets born into that world then they won't have the memory of emotion to fall back on and so they won't think it to be an abnormal thing.

Yes they do.

[Geneviev]

My title was stolen. Kind of.

Anyway, you do not just burn books. I would take my books and go to the Territories because I need them. Life is meaningless without Walt Whitman and George Orwell. That would be the main reason, but I also think we need religion, science, and a healthy amount of emotion. Otherwise, you can't really be a person.

Writing "burning books" -- god, that hurt.

But, of course, all the other stuff matters to me, too.

The other stuff matters, but books are probably one of the most important things we have. That's why Fahrenheit 451 and the present are both that terrifying. We need books to be the best version of humankind.

Hey, maybe I should make a thread on Fahrenheit 451 next.

[Dyanderna]

Yes they do.

I really shouldn't be saying any of this as if I know what I'm talking about but surely if someone has never experienced emotion then they won't view that lack of emotion as being abnormal. If someone is born into this world where emotions are routinely suppressed and removed and so they don't get to experience them as a "normal" person would then they shouldn't see it as an abnormal thing right? That lack of a state of emotion would just be their norm and the thing they're used to

[Thepeopl]

Yes they do.

I really shouldn't be saying any of this as if I know what I'm talking about but surely if someone has never experienced emotion then they won't view that lack of emotion as being abnormal. If someone is born into this world where emotions are routinely suppressed and removed and so they don't get to experience them as a "normal" person would then they shouldn't see it as an abnormal thing right? That lack of a state of emotion would just be their norm and the thing they're used to

Well you might be right for the next generation. But that isn't the question here. We all know would know what we are missing.

I think the drones would miss music, singing together, feeling connected. The monotony will drive them crazy.
Humans are storytellers, we need and use imagination, if we don't experience sadness we don't truly appreciate happiness.

[Branda]

Art and religion are very fundamental aspects of humanity. If they engender conflict*, then society as a whole should not be about suppressing everybody's humanity, but about enhancing it by teaching conflict resolution.

*debatable: convictions engender conflict, and arts and religion could be seen as regulating / moderating outlets of those convictions)

[Jello Biafra]

Can I have individualist territory, but with indoor plumbing and air conditioning/electricity?

[Xmara]

The Territories, without a doubt. I’m reminded of this quote from Star Trek (episode: This Side of Paradise):

McCoy: Well, that's the second time man's been thrown out of paradise.
Kirk: No, no, Bones, this time we walked out on our own. Maybe we weren't meant for paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute. We must march to the sound of drums.

I think we were meant to work our way to happiness, rather than have it handed to us. It makes you appreciate it that much more. I also think that we would stagnate as a society. What’s the point of progress and innovation if everything is already perfect?

[VoVoDoCo]

Coming from a person who does not have the emotional breadth or width that other people I observe seem to, this seems like a hell hole. The hard sciences being suppressed? That seems like a great way to cause the downfall of civilization. Getting rid of emotions entirely? Emotions are a lens through which one sees the world. If any emotion is irrational, it’s because the thought process behind it that elicited that emotion was irrational.. So in the end, no. I can’t even buy the idea that this would create the perfect Society even possible theoretically. The wording is even vague enough to give me shivers. They say that those drugs will lead to happy and good “behaviors”, Not even necessarily good and happy thoughts. It seems like it would be emotional suppression, not State mandated euphoria.

The disbanding of the hard sciences, As it explicitly says In ur op would happen, would it’s self be enough to drive me away. The freedom is important too. I don’t think freedom is necessarily the highest political end. But there certainly isn’t much Else that it is subservient to. The burden of proof is on those that wish to restrict freedom, and I don’t think the state has met its burden in the scenario.

[Xmara]

I just wanna know who those 4 people are who voted in favor of the Brave New World, and why

[Vetalia]

Honestly, I always thought the World State was far, far worse than Oceania/Eastasia/Eurasia in 1984 so I would definitely strike out for the territories. Hell, I'd choose Ingsoc over the World State if I really had to.

[VoVoDoCo]

I just wanna know who those 4 people are who voted in favor of the Brave New World, and why

There’s always going to be a few people who vote against the main stream just because.

[The Emerald Legion]

Go to the territories, wait for the rampant use of depressants/emotional suppressants to degrade the overall main societies cognitivie abilities then take the land back.

[The Free Joy State]

Writing "burning books" -- god, that hurt.

But, of course, all the other stuff matters to me, too.

The other stuff matters, but books are probably one of the most important things we have. That's why Fahrenheit 451 and the present are both that terrifying. We need books to be the best version of humankind.

Hey, maybe I should make a thread on Fahrenheit 451 next.

Oh, that sounds interesting!

I really shouldn't be saying any of this as if I know what I'm talking about but surely if someone has never experienced emotion then they won't view that lack of emotion as being abnormal. If someone is born into this world where emotions are routinely suppressed and removed and so they don't get to experience them as a "normal" person would then they shouldn't see it as an abnormal thing right? That lack of a state of emotion would just be their norm and the thing they're used to

Well you might be right for the next generation. But that isn't the question here. We all know would know what we are missing.

I think the drones would miss music, singing together, feeling connected. The monotony will drive them crazy.
Humans are storytellers, we need and use imagination, if we don't experience sadness we don't truly appreciate happiness.

My own theory is that even the next generation would feel something was missing. They might never be able to clearly articulate what it was, and there'd always be state-distributed drugs available to make the feeling go away, but I think -- inside -- life going from work-to-home, home-to-work, taking mind-numbing drugs and seeing entertainments that aren't designed to elicit emotion would always feel somewhat empty.

Can I have individualist territory, but with indoor plumbing and air conditioning/electricity?

You might get lucky, but you'd probably have to build it first.

The Territories, without a doubt. I’m reminded of this quote from Star Trek (episode: This Side of Paradise):

McCoy: Well, that's the second time man's been thrown out of paradise.
Kirk: No, no, Bones, this time we walked out on our own. Maybe we weren't meant for paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute. We must march to the sound of drums.

I think we were meant to work our way to happiness, rather than have it handed to us. It makes you appreciate it that much more. I also think that we would stagnate as a society. What’s the point of progress and innovation if everything is already perfect?

I think that would basically be the end of progress (no more hard sciences). I agree any society like that would stagnate.

People have to come together to resolve the flaws in society due to mutual understanding, I think; I don't see force working. Realistically, the Territories would probably be swamped.

Coming from a person who does not have the emotional breadth or width that other people I observe seem to, this seems like a hell hole. The hard sciences being suppressed? That seems like a great way to cause the downfall of civilization. Getting rid of emotions entirely? Emotions are a lens through which one sees the world. If any emotion is irrational, it’s because the thought process behind it that elicited that emotion was irrational.. So in the end, no. I can’t even buy the idea that this would create the perfect Society even possible theoretically. The wording is even vague enough to give me shivers. They say that those drugs will lead to happy and good “behaviors”, Not even necessarily good and happy thoughts. It seems like it would be emotional suppression, not State mandated euphoria.

The disbanding of the hard sciences, As it explicitly says In ur op would happen, would it’s self be enough to drive me away. The freedom is important too. I don’t think freedom is necessarily the highest political end. But there certainly isn’t much Else that it is subservient to. The burden of proof is on those that wish to restrict freedom, and I don’t think the state has met its burden in the scenario.

It would be interesting to see how long such a society would actually last. The novel gives it several hundred years, but -- realistically and outside the bonds of the thought experiment -- I'm not convinced.

Honestly, I always thought the World State was far, far worse than Oceania/Eastasia/Eurasia in 1984 so I would definitely strike out for the territories. Hell, I'd choose Ingsoc over the World State if I really had to.

I wouldn't live in either, but the World State is definitely a more insidious dystopia than than IngSoc. With Hate Week, MiniLuv and B.B., IngSoc is overtly designed for hatred, human misery and the crushing of the face under a boot.

The World State, however, brainwashes people from infancy that "everybody's happy now" and that they "do love" whatever the latest craze is while making them fear anything unprofitable, gives soma to make its citizens happy and compliant, calls people they are ordering about "my dearest friends", and treats its citizens like children because "our Ford loved children". The World State is definitely a dystopia, but one that works hard to pretend it's utopic.

[USS Monitor]

I wouldn't believe the new government's claims about ending social ills. I've seen how stupid most people's ideas about "optimal" breeding are.

I assume the high Himalayas are one of the areas that the "Brave New World" people would leave uncolonized because of, well, basically everything about the climate, soil, and altitude -- so I'd rather go hang out there.

It would be interesting to see how long such a society would actually last. The novel gives it several hundred years, but -- realistically and outside the bonds of the thought experiment -- I'm not convinced.

I don't think it would ever really work. Totalitarian states don't have a long average shelf life, and they don't live up to the propaganda.

[The Free Joy State]

I wouldn't believe the new government's claims about ending social ills. I've seen how stupid most people's ideas about "optimal" breeding are.

I assume the high Himalayas are one of the areas that the "Brave New World" people would leave uncolonized because of, well, basically everything about the climate, soil, and altitude -- so I'd rather go hang out there.

It would be interesting to see how long such a society would actually last. The novel gives it several hundred years, but -- realistically and outside the bonds of the thought experiment -- I'm not convinced.

I don't think it would ever really work. Totalitarian states don't have a long average shelf life, and they don't live up to the propaganda.

The Handmaid's Tale has Gilead starting to fall apart after seven years. I think that's fairly realistic. You drive away or suppress creativity, progress, dissent, thought... how long is a society going to last before the first major cracks appear? Five, ten, fifteen at the outlier.

People aren't built to act like robots.

[Kowani]

People aren't built to act like robots.

Capitalism's managed it for quite a while...

[Eahland]

Given that the exiles are going to vastly outnumber the society - by about 15:1, if the poll's to be believed - and will include literally everyone capable of thought, creativity, or motivated action, I give the Brave New World a week at the outside.

[Unstoppable Empire of Doom]

So.... basically The Giver?

This dystopia is not a happy one btw.

[Ethel mermania]

Given that the exiles are going to vastly outnumber the society - by about 15:1, if the poll's to be believed - and will include literally everyone capable of thought, creativity, or motivated action, I give the Brave New World a week at the outside.

How? You would have to completely recreate wealth. Seeds for food, make tools for building?

Its the old story when you make a million pencils its one cent each. If you make one pencil it will cost a million dollars

[The Emerald Legion]

Given that the exiles are going to vastly outnumber the society - by about 15:1, if the poll's to be believed - and will include literally everyone capable of thought, creativity, or motivated action, I give the Brave New World a week at the outside.

How? You would have to completely recreate wealth. Seeds for food, make tools for building?

Its the old story when you make a million pencils its one cent each. If you make one pencil it will cost a million dollars

Why would we have to recreate anything when we could just take things from the brave new world and nobody would care enough to stop us?

[Ethel mermania]

How? You would have to completely recreate wealth. Seeds for food, make tools for building?

Its the old story when you make a million pencils its one cent each. If you make one pencil it will cost a million dollars

Why would we have to recreate anything when we could just take things from the brave new world and nobody would care enough to stop us?

they are throwing you out to never have contact. Where are you going to get the machine tools to make pencils, where are you going to get electricity to power those machine tools? Where are you going to get the steel to make those machine tools?

Modern life is capital intensive, the infrastructure takes years to build with those resources handy, and in this scenario they are not handy.

[The Emerald Legion]

Why would we have to recreate anything when we could just take things from the brave new world and nobody would care enough to stop us?

they are throwing you out to never have contact. Where are you going to get the machine tools to make pencils, where are you going to get electricity to power those machine tools? Where are you going to get the steel to make those machine tools?

Modern life is capital intensive, the infrastructure takes years to build with those resources handy, and in this scenario they are not handy.

Throwing us out to never come back... How? Like how are they going to enforce it? Keep in mind, free territories will outnumber them 15 to 1 in just population. In addition, of that one, most will be kept chemically docile. Which makes it closer to 60-1 combat capable people. Spears aren't hard to make and neither are clubs or knives.

So yes, we take the option to go into exile, then just show up in force, beat the shit out of the vastly numerically inferior New Worlders, and take what we want. We now have all the machine tools and modern supplies we need, and then they'll be really screwed.

[Ethel mermania]

they are throwing you out to never have contact. Where are you going to get the machine tools to make pencils, where are you going to get electricity to power those machine tools? Where are you going to get the steel to make those machine tools?

Modern life is capital intensive, the infrastructure takes years to build with those resources handy, and in this scenario they are not handy.

Throwing us out to never come back... How? Like how are they going to enforce it? Keep in mind, free territories will outnumber them 15 to 1 in just population. In addition, of that one, most will be kept chemically docile. Which makes it closer to 60-1 combat capable people. Spears aren't hard to make and neither are clubs or knives.

So yes, we take the option to go into exile, then just show up in force, beat the shit out of the vastly numerically inferior New Worlders, and take what we want. We now have all the machine tools and modern supplies we need, and then they'll be really screwed.

They have all the guns and weapons when you start to come back, you have none. My money is on the side with guns.