Re: 1 Vote or 5 million dollars?

[Page]

At this point I would sell the vote and donate the 5 million to buy gas masks, armor, and tanks for protesters.

Make sure you don't under-spend on gas masks, because tanks are a bit pricey.

They could make another Killdozer instead of buying a tank on the market.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Now it's just "don't vote" rather than "vote as I say"?

It's not different in the most important way though. Many of your hypotheticals have the same fault: the money offered is so extreme that in real life anyone but a billionaire would take the money. They're not answering necessarily with what they would really do, because the offer seems "too good to be true" so what they're really telling you ... is admittedly sometimes that their vote can't be bought at all, but also virtue signalling that (when they wouldn't if you offered $500), and most of all "that's fishy, it's too good to be true, I would stay away from this deal in real life".

Even before I saw the other posters' ideas, I knew you were throwing away the money. To them I add, I can have far more political influence by donating to individual congress-critters, and then writing them a letter about why I donated. Than with one puny vote! Any rich person foolish enough to try and change an election result this way is going to end up poor and disappointed.

In my head cannon, the rich person thinks as I do (that 1-2 votes are useless statistically speaking). He’s only after the gimmick of being the first person in world history to gain the State-recognized power of having 2 votes in elections. He plans to market this to his advantage and use the publicity for gains that aren’t political in nature.

He knows that money > votes in democracies. He’s been playing the game a lot longer. He’s bored of it. Now he just wants something else.

...

But again, it’s not necessary to know this to answer.

You have to keep in mind that my scenarios don’t go for absolute realism, they are thought experiments set up with intended trade offs. They are meant to cause you to self reflect on your values.

Yeah. That's what I mean. If the hypothetical was $5,000 for my vote, I would have to think and reflect on my values.

Are you familiar with the term "get fucked money"? It's so much money that you can tell anyone, your boss, your mother, your best friend, a cop, to get fucked. Not that you'd necessarily do that, but you'd be insulated from the consequences ... by money. Mom says she will never forgive you, and she doesn't for a while, but the nice new house beside her favorite beach eventually softens her up.

Your standards might be higher, but $5 million is get-fucked money to me. Well nearly ... my mom's favorite beach is Tamarama in Sydney and $5 million probably wouldn't buy a really nice house there.

What I'm saying is that neither the crime, the possible punishment, nor the moral wrong of selling my vote gave me any anguish at all. I'll have the money, my vote can get fucked, and if the law comes for me I'll squeal on the bad man who corrupted my democratic ideals.

The rules and premises aren’t capricious, they are to maintain the intended trade offs. (For example, if the selling and buying of further votes WERE allowed, it creates a very different cost-benefit analysis. Hence why some of the rules close that down. As another example, I don’t want this to be about Legality and Law and Order... so I stipulate that in this scenario, the sale of this one vote is made legal by the State).

Do you see?

That I actually under-estimated how lopsided the deal is? Anyone who voted No on this one, is either loaded, a liar, or leery of deals that look too good to be true.

I do believe Blargoblarg though. Seems like the penniless idealist type

[Mauritania Romana]

5 million dollars gives more power to positively impact others' lives and my own so it outweighs the singular vote

[Infected Mushroom]

In my head cannon, the rich person thinks as I do (that 1-2 votes are useless statistically speaking). He’s only after the gimmick of being the first person in world history to gain the State-recognized power of having 2 votes in elections. He plans to market this to his advantage and use the publicity for gains that aren’t political in nature.

He knows that money > votes in democracies. He’s been playing the game a lot longer. He’s bored of it. Now he just wants something else.

...

But again, it’s not necessary to know this to answer.

You have to keep in mind that my scenarios don’t go for absolute realism, they are thought experiments set up with intended trade offs. They are meant to cause you to self reflect on your values.

Yeah. That's what I mean. If the hypothetical was $5,000 for my vote, I would have to think and reflect on my values.

Are you familiar with the term "get fucked money"? It's so much money that you can tell anyone, your boss, your mother, your best friend, a cop, to get fucked. Not that you'd necessarily do that, but you'd be insulated from the consequences ... by money. Mom says she will never forgive you, and she doesn't for a while, but the nice new house beside her favorite beach eventually softens her up.

Your standards might be higher, but $5 million is get-fucked money to me. Well nearly ... my mom's favorite beach is Tamarama in Sydney and $5 million probably wouldn't buy a really nice house there.

What I'm saying is that neither the crime, the possible punishment, nor the moral wrong of selling my vote gave me any anguish at all. I'll have the money, my vote can get fucked, and if the law comes for me I'll squeal on the bad man who corrupted my democratic ideals.

The rules and premises aren’t capricious, they are to maintain the intended trade offs. (For example, if the selling and buying of further votes WERE allowed, it creates a very different cost-benefit analysis. Hence why some of the rules close that down. As another example, I don’t want this to be about Legality and Law and Order... so I stipulate that in this scenario, the sale of this one vote is made legal by the State).

Do you see?

That I actually under-estimated how lopsided the deal is? Anyone who voted No on this one, is either loaded, a liar, or leery of deals that look too good to be true.

I do believe Blargoblarg though. Seems like the penniless idealist type

5 million was indeed designed to be a high number for most people

I felt it was the proper way to go (money should be high) because of traditional understandings of the vote as priceless

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Yeah. That's what I mean. If the hypothetical was $5,000 for my vote, I would have to think and reflect on my values.

Are you familiar with the term "get fucked money"? It's so much money that you can tell anyone, your boss, your mother, your best friend, a cop, to get fucked. Not that you'd necessarily do that, but you'd be insulated from the consequences ... by money. Mom says she will never forgive you, and she doesn't for a while, but the nice new house beside her favorite beach eventually softens her up.

Your standards might be higher, but $5 million is get-fucked money to me. Well nearly ... my mom's favorite beach is Tamarama in Sydney and $5 million probably wouldn't buy a really nice house there.

What I'm saying is that neither the crime, the possible punishment, nor the moral wrong of selling my vote gave me any anguish at all. I'll have the money, my vote can get fucked, and if the law comes for me I'll squeal on the bad man who corrupted my democratic ideals.




That I actually under-estimated how lopsided the deal is? Anyone who voted No on this one, is either loaded, a liar, or leery of deals that look too good to be true.

I do believe Blargoblarg though. Seems like the penniless idealist type

5 million was indeed designed to be a high number for most people

I felt it was the proper way to go (money should be high) because of traditional understandings of the vote as priceless

OK, I've made my point. I'll stop hassling you now. You know I'm impossible to please when it comes to hypotheticals!

[Nobel Hobos 2]

However, I do disagree with the premise that a single vote is unimportant. In multiple US election (Kentucky house of representatives, district 37, Alaska House of Representatives, district 1), to name only examples from 2018, the race was decided by a single vote.

Two in a year is a lot more than I would expect, and with such large numbers as (even) a State district has, winning by one should be almost exactly twice as common as a tie. (because there are two ways to win by 1)

If you went to vote thinking "this one will be close, my vote might actually make the difference!" would it dampen your enthusiasm to think your vote might also be the one which causes a tie?

In one of those Google miracles, the very first link was a tie for a House race, also in Alaska, also in 2018. Please don't spoil the magic by pointing out whether this "tie" was later resolved into the 1-vote victory. Remember this is a hypothetical thread!

Right at the bottom of that article, it says that any ties remaining unresolved after recounts and court challenges, is decided by a coin toss!

Ie, the whole election was futile. Even the voters whose candidate wins the coin toss, didn't get their way by voting. Only by luck.

[Eukaryotic Cells]

I'd sell my vote. 5 million dollars is a life changing amount of money. If you're passionate about politics, you can donate some of that money to your preferred party or candidates.

[Washington Resistance Army]

I live in one of the bluest states possible. My vote is meaningless and I see little point using it anymore, fuck yeah I'll take 5 million.

[Kashimura]

I’d sell my vote if you made me dictator in return. No dice otherwise.
It’s not like a red vote is worth much more than a kick in the teeth in my state though.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

I'd sell my vote. 5 million dollars is a life changing amount of money.

Indeed. With plenty of leeway to make amends for whatever moral crime you committed against democracy.

If you're passionate about politics, you can donate some of that money to your preferred party or candidates.

Or lobby politicians. It's not as unethical as it sounds: just avoid giving them money, instead win their attention with information (eg polling), and make sure they know everything you want them to know before making their decision on your issues.

[Alvecia]

I feel like people are overestimating what they could do politically with 5mil.

Any 5 mil that you spend is going to be absolutely outclassed by some billionaire on the other side who can both outspend you and get to keep their vote.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Im not selling my vote for anything.

[Freiheit Reich]

Sell my vote assuming these are American dollars and not Zimbabwe dollars. There are few differences between republicans and democrats anyways and we all know that libertarians have no chance to win the US election. Politicians are basically controlled by corporations with powerful lobbyists, not by the concerns of average citizens.

[Andsed]

Take the 5 million dollars and use it to campaign for an end to the electoral college system all together and institute an actual democratic popular vote.

[Infected Mushroom]

Take the 5 million dollars and use it to campaign for an end to the electoral college system all together and institute an actual democratic popular vote.

Wouldn’t you need more?

[North American Imperial State]

Since I can't vote due to not living in the US, I will have the 5 million dollars but convert it to pounds.

[Ifreann]

I wouldn't believe someone who told me that this was legal, and if I was somehow shown that it was then I wouldn't believe that it would really only happen once. I'd go to the press and set about ending the careers of everyone involved in allowing this to happen.

[San Lumen]

No I would not sell my vote and would immediately report the person involved in this to the authorities. The amount of people saying in both the poll and replies they would take the deal is scary.

Every vote matters and if enough people took suck a deal for something as common as money pretty soon you don't have democracy.

[Socialist States of Ludistan]

That depends on a lot of things, if me and the person buying my vote agree on a lot of the same things then sure, I’ll sell it. But if I agree with nothing the person buying my vote has to say, then I won’t sell my vote.

[The Rich Port]

We all take the 5 million and we all buy tanks to vote anyway. Money is power, and power is voting.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Take the 5 million dollars and use it to campaign for an end to the electoral college system all together and institute an actual democratic popular vote.

Wouldn’t you need more?

Yeah. If you just whip up some ads and put them out on the net (however Google sees fit) the money will run out pretty quick.

The key is quality information, carefully curated and carefully formed into a policy proposal that someone else can sell to the American people. It must be simple over-all (eg "each state should have electors in the same number as their US House representatives" though of course this is NOT my own proposal), yet rigorously argued and thoroughly sourced so that stupid-level attacks on it like "it takes away our democracy" can never gain a hold.

I would set up a think-tank or "research institute" as a non-profit 501(c)(?). Hire some academics, policy writers and (presumably retired) politicians for the lowest wage they will accept. That might be quite low: once a couple of eminent names are on board, others may see an opportunity to be part of history and volunteer. Bear in mind also, it probably won't be a full-time job for any of them, also they can work from home. Leaving just enough money to run the "institute" website for a year or so.

And that's it. I would do my best to turn the money into a portfolio of information, expert opinion, objective assessment of options, and some expert advocacy ... but not too much of the latter. The point is to be a resource available to advocates, including hopefully serving legislators, but lets not get too ambitious. Advertising and other 'direct advocacy' can come later if the website attracts donations.

Some of you may be familiar already with the FairVote website? With more layers (simple, simple but more, full explanation, exhaustive technical explanation, haha you will never crack this code), but that kind of objective assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of alternative systems is what I'm thinking of.

[Geneviev]

Assuming that I can vote, there is no way I would sell my vote. First, because it's definitely illegal, and second, because we need every vote we can get in this election.

[San Lumen]

Assuming that I can vote, there is no way I would sell my vote. First, because it's definitely illegal, and second, because we need every vote we can get in this election.

Plus no matter what they say Id find it very hard to believe it was being offered to only one person

[Dominioan]

Yes. 1, I’m in a red state so my vote has no meaning anyway. 2, that’s a crap ton of money. And 3, I could use that money to support a candidate I support.

[Geneviev]

Assuming that I can vote, there is no way I would sell my vote. First, because it's definitely illegal, and second, because we need every vote we can get in this election.

Plus no matter what they say Id find it very hard to believe it was being offered to only one person

I'm not sure about that. It's a lot of money.