Armenia-Azerbaijan Conflict: The Great Betrayal

[Shofercia]

If you’re American you should support the only actual democracy in this fight. The fact you’re playing pearl clutching centrist suggests you actually want Azerbaijan to “win” but cannot say it for fear of reprisal from this thread.

maybe a repeat of the Armenian genocide which the turks and the azeris oh so heroically deny take place.

Also, here's a bit of recent history:
1989: 1,858 Armenians in Nakhchivan. Today: 6
1989: 10,210 non-Azeris in Nakhchivan. Today: 1,608
1989: 281,807 Azeris in Nakhchivan. Today: 396,709

Hmm, why aren't Armenians trustful on the issue of Nagorno-Karabakh...

[Lower Nubia]

maybe a repeat of the Armenian genocide which the turks and the azeris oh so heroically deny take place.

Also, here's a bit of recent history:
1989: 1,858 Armenians in Nakhchivan. Today: 6
1989: 10,210 non-Azeris in Nakhchivan. Today: 1,608
1989: 281,807 Azeris in Nakhchivan. Today: 396,709

Hmm, why aren't Armenians trustful on the issue of Nagorno-Karabakh...

Even if there were no movements of people, if the Armenians in Karabakh agreed to be under Azerbaijan, they’d still be a minority culture in a dictatorship.

That’s a big no-no to anyone with a brain.

[Shofercia]

Also, here's a bit of recent history:
1989: 1,858 Armenians in Nakhchivan. Today: 6
1989: 10,210 non-Azeris in Nakhchivan. Today: 1,608
1989: 281,807 Azeris in Nakhchivan. Today: 396,709

Hmm, why aren't Armenians trustful on the issue of Nagorno-Karabakh...

Even if there were no movements of people, if the Armenians in Karabakh agreed to be under Azerbaijan, they’d still be a minority culture in a dictatorship.

That’s a big no-no to anyone with a brain.

There's also this little gem: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-19499151

Ramil Safarov hacked a man to death with an axe in Hungary in 2004 and was imprisoned there until last week, when he was extradited to Azerbaijan. He was expected to serve out the rest of his life sentence, but was instead promoted, and given a flat to live in. The Armenian parliament has now formally suspended ties with Hungary.

In case you're wondering what Safarov did - he hacked an Armenian soldier to death, while the latter was asleep, during NATO's war games. He was convicted, and sentenced to serve life in prison in Hungary. However, after numerous bribes, erm, I mean gifts, to Hungary's elites from Azerbaijan, he was extradited to Azerbaijan, where he was given a hero's welcome.

A week before Safarov's release, there were reports that the two countries were in talks over a loan from Azerbaijan to Hungary of 2-3bn euros ($2.5-3.8bn; £1.6-2.4bn). Hungary's prime minister has denied any secret deal and insisted that his country acted within international law.

Apparently there's an international law on properly accepting bribes. Who knew?

[Insaanistan]

Again, I’m not Turkish/Azeri or Turkic in general (at least to my knowledge). I don’t really support ether government. I certainly don’t support Putin. You guys ARE aware I’m American, right? If it’s not clear, I’ll try to add it to my sig.

If you’re American you should support the only actual democracy in this fight. The fact you’re playing pearl clutching centrist suggests you actually want Azerbaijan to “win” but cannot say it for fear of reprisal from this thread.

It doesn’t suggest that at all, but by all means, continue.

[Lower Nubia]

If you’re American you should support the only actual democracy in this fight. The fact you’re playing pearl clutching centrist suggests you actually want Azerbaijan to “win” but cannot say it for fear of reprisal from this thread.

It doesn’t suggest that at all, but by all means, continue.

So you support a dictatorship getting the land?

[Insaanistan]

It doesn’t suggest that at all, but by all means, continue.

So you support a dictatorship getting the land?

Nope.

[Lower Nubia]

So you support a dictatorship getting the land?

Nope.

Good, glad we’re not talking past eachother here.

[Baltenstein]

This only outcome will be invasion of turkey with Greece,Georgia, Armenia,France and Russia

I'm not sure where you're getting this idea from - some video game most likely - but a word on Greece: While public opinion is, unsurprisingly, more sympathetic towards the Armenians, the same cannot really be said for the Greek government's position.
For starters, the Grek gov isn't keen on picking yet another fight with Turkey, when the latter is currently in the process of slowly backing away from its Blue Homeland bellicosity.
Perhaps more importantly, the Greek gov doesn't want to endorse Armenia's stance of Artsakh because it's comparable to Turkey's stance on Northern Cyprus (btw, Hakinda is shooting himself in the foot here when he's bringing in international recognition as proof for legitimacy or lack thereof, although he probably doesn't realize it).
Because of Northern Cyprus, Greece has a strict policy of non-recognition towards breakaway states that came into being through outside military intervention.

[The Restored Danelaw]

This only outcome will be invasion of turkey with Greece,Georgia, Armenia,France and Russia

I'm not sure where you're getting this idea from - some video game most likely - but a word on Greece: While public opinion is, unsurprisingly, more sympathetic towards the Armenians, the same cannot really be said for the Greek government's position.
For starters, the Grek gov isn't keen on picking yet another fight with Turkey, when the latter is currently in the process of slowly backing away from its Blue Homeland bellicosity.
Perhaps more importantly, the Greek gov doesn't want to endorse Armenia's stance of Artsakh because it's comparable to Turkey's stance on Northern Cyprus (btw, Hakinda is shooting himself in the foot here when he's bringing in international recognition as proof for legitimacy or lack thereof, although he probably doesn't realize it).
Because of Northern Cyprus, Greece has a strict policy of non-recognition towards breakaway states that came into being through outside military intervention.

Artsakh is almost nothing like Northern Cyprus though. Northern Cyprus is in its essence a colony that is under settler migration from Turkey. Artsakh was a historically Armenian region that was given to Baku through Soviet demarcation. Artsakh as a land separate from Baku is justified through its historical and current demographics (an there's little evidence of an ongoing Armenian settlement in the area), Turkish Cyprus is an ongoing colonial project.

[Albionist Great Britain]

I'm not sure where you're getting this idea from - some video game most likely - but a word on Greece: While public opinion is, unsurprisingly, more sympathetic towards the Armenians, the same cannot really be said for the Greek government's position.
For starters, the Grek gov isn't keen on picking yet another fight with Turkey, when the latter is currently in the process of slowly backing away from its Blue Homeland bellicosity.
Perhaps more importantly, the Greek gov doesn't want to endorse Armenia's stance of Artsakh because it's comparable to Turkey's stance on Northern Cyprus (btw, Hakinda is shooting himself in the foot here when he's bringing in international recognition as proof for legitimacy or lack thereof, although he probably doesn't realize it).
Because of Northern Cyprus, Greece has a strict policy of non-recognition towards breakaway states that came into being through outside military intervention.

Artsakh is almost nothing like Northern Cyprus though. Northern Cyprus is in its essence a colony that is under settler migration from Turkey. Artsakh was a historically Armenian region that was given to Baku through Soviet demarcation. Artsakh as a land separate from Baku is justified through its historical and current demographics (an there's little evidence of an ongoing Armenian settlement in the area), Turkish Cyprus is an ongoing colonial project.

It wasn’t ‘given’ though, was it? I thought Artsakh was only kept as part of a subdivision that had initially been drawn by Iranians and the Russians based their subdivisional borders on them. The Soviets took a census when they regained control of the region and chose to keep Artsakh as part of ‘Azerbaijan’. Stalin was only the head of it.

[The Restored Danelaw]

It wasn’t ‘given’ though, was it? I thought Artsakh was only kept as part of a subdivision that had initially been drawn by Iranians and the Russians based their subdivisional borders on them. The Soviets took a census when they regained control of the region and chose to keep Artsakh as part of ‘Azerbaijan’. Stalin was only the head of it.

That's basically false. Eran and Shirvan had been under Russian occupation since the 1800s -which is when the first censuses were held, at which point Artsakh was "almost completely Armenian". By the time Stalin came into power, apart from a brief stint at independence during the Civil War, both "countries" were fully Russian in administration. At the time of the Census Azeris were 10% of the population as opposed to 111k Armenians who lived there. It was essentially "granted" to Baku illegitimately, which is how the Azeris even went from 10% in 1926 to 25% in 1989 (through settlement and apartheid).

[Albionist Great Britain]

It wasn’t ‘given’ though, was it? I thought Artsakh was only kept as part of a subdivision that had initially been drawn by Iranians and the Russians based their subdivisional borders on them. The Soviets took a census when they regained control of the region and chose to keep Artsakh as part of ‘Azerbaijan’. Stalin was only the head of it.

That's basically false. Eran and Shirvan had been under Russian occupation since the 1800s -which is when the first censuses were held, at which point Artsakh was "almost completely Armenian". By the time Stalin came into power, apart from a brief stint at independence during the Civil War, both "countries" were fully Russian in administration. At the time of the Census Azeris were 10% of the population as opposed to 111k Armenians who lived there. It was essentially "granted" to Baku illegitimately, which is how the Azeris even went from 10% in 1926 to 25% in 1989 (through settlement and apartheid).

Ah, okay. I thought the issue was just down to the khanates and later uyezds which functioned as the local regions and administrations AFAIK, and Artsakh was originally entirely part of one of the khanates and when the Russians implemented the uyezds and then the governorates it stayed mostly within the old borders. I don’t deny the fact Baku has no claim on it, at least any longer, and that it’s rightfully Armenian, but I don’t think the Reds just gave it to the Azeris but rather kind of kept some continuity or something.

[The Restored Danelaw]

That's basically false. Eran and Shirvan had been under Russian occupation since the 1800s -which is when the first censuses were held, at which point Artsakh was "almost completely Armenian". By the time Stalin came into power, apart from a brief stint at independence during the Civil War, both "countries" were fully Russian in administration. At the time of the Census Azeris were 10% of the population as opposed to 111k Armenians who lived there. It was essentially "granted" to Baku illegitimately, which is how the Azeris even went from 10% in 1926 to 25% in 1989 (through settlement and apartheid).

Ah, okay. I thought the issue was just down to the khanates and later uyezds which functioned as the local regions and administrations AFAIK, and Artsakh was originally entirely part of one of the khanates and when the Russians implemented the uyezds and then the governorates it stayed mostly within the old borders. I don’t deny the fact Baku has no claim on it, at least any longer, and that it’s rightfully Armenian, but I don’t think the Reds just gave it to the Azeris but rather kind of kept some continuity or something.

Oh it definitely wasn't about continuity. It was just Stalin being an asshole for the most part.

[Albionist Great Britain]

Ah, okay. I thought the issue was just down to the khanates and later uyezds which functioned as the local regions and administrations AFAIK, and Artsakh was originally entirely part of one of the khanates and when the Russians implemented the uyezds and then the governorates it stayed mostly within the old borders. I don’t deny the fact Baku has no claim on it, at least any longer, and that it’s rightfully Armenian, but I don’t think the Reds just gave it to the Azeris but rather kind of kept some continuity or something.

Oh it definitely wasn't about continuity. It was just Stalin being an asshole for the most part.

Hm, alright.

[SD_Film Artists]

A correspondent on France 24 says that the jihadis brought in by Turkey are in fact mercenaries instead (that makes it better, I suppose?). He also claims that the mercs were brought in early around 27th September, pointing to a pre-planned build up.

https://youtu.be/e9k1d1CPf6g

Fake news sites in Russia, Armenia and other nations have continued to spread anti-Muslim propaganda and unconfirmed news stories portraying the conflict as a jihad against Christianity that has prompted support from right wing politicians in Europe, as well as Greek and Serbian right wing nationalists.

I mean, it’s highly unlikely Armenia would evoke religion in any official capacity. Armenia relies on relations with Iran to maintain supplies. Framing this as a religious conflict would alienate Iran, not benefit their essential relation.

Not much, only a gun-toting priest on the Armenian government's official Twitter account

The conflict between the two sides also prompted clashes on social media, in which Armenia’s official Twitter account – handled by its Foreign Ministry – posted a picture of an Armenian priest wielding an assault rifle and holding a crucifix, with the caption “Faith & Power!”

[Baltenstein]

I'm not sure where you're getting this idea from - some video game most likely - but a word on Greece: While public opinion is, unsurprisingly, more sympathetic towards the Armenians, the same cannot really be said for the Greek government's position.
For starters, the Grek gov isn't keen on picking yet another fight with Turkey, when the latter is currently in the process of slowly backing away from its Blue Homeland bellicosity.
Perhaps more importantly, the Greek gov doesn't want to endorse Armenia's stance of Artsakh because it's comparable to Turkey's stance on Northern Cyprus (btw, Hakinda is shooting himself in the foot here when he's bringing in international recognition as proof for legitimacy or lack thereof, although he probably doesn't realize it).
Because of Northern Cyprus, Greece has a strict policy of non-recognition towards breakaway states that came into being through outside military intervention.

Artsakh is almost nothing like Northern Cyprus though. Northern Cyprus is in its essence a colony that is under settler migration from Turkey. Artsakh was a historically Armenian region that was given to Baku through Soviet demarcation. Artsakh as a land separate from Baku is justified through its historical and current demographics (an there's little evidence of an ongoing Armenian settlement in the area), Turkish Cyprus is an ongoing colonial project.

That's the Greek government's position regardless of the particular specifics. In a similar vein, Greece doesn't recognize Kosovo either.

[Lower Nubia]

I mean, it’s highly unlikely Armenia would evoke religion in any official capacity. Armenia relies on relations with Iran to maintain supplies. Framing this as a religious conflict would alienate Iran, not benefit their essential relation.

Not much, only a gun-toting priest on the Armenian government's official Twitter account

I wouldn’t say that’s evoking religion into this conflict. The photo is badass though, not sure how licit it is in the Church context.

I don’t deny the picture, but the context that website uses is literally false:

“ Azerbaijan yesterday declared a state of war in some of its cities and regions following attacks by Armenian forces on military and civilian sites over the weekend.

The decision was made in a meeting of Azerbaijan’s National Assembly yesterday, in which it enforced partial measures in its border regions which could temporarily restrict some rights and freedoms of Azeri citizens and foreigners due to the conflict.

It came after Armenian forces reportedly targeted Azerbaijan’s military positions and civilian areas around the Armenia-occupied Nagorno-Karabakh region, igniting border clashes that have left dozens dead on both sides.”

Armenia didn’t start these clashes, that’s internationally accepted.

[Insaanistan]

Not much, only a gun-toting priest on the Armenian government's official Twitter account

I wouldn’t say that’s evoking religion into this conflict. The photo is badass though, not sure how licit it is in the Church context.

I don’t deny the picture, but the context that website uses is literally false:

“ Azerbaijan yesterday declared a state of war in some of its cities and regions following attacks by Armenian forces on military and civilian sites over the weekend.

The decision was made in a meeting of Azerbaijan’s National Assembly yesterday, in which it enforced partial measures in its border regions which could temporarily restrict some rights and freedoms of Azeri citizens and foreigners due to the conflict.

It came after Armenian forces reportedly targeted Azerbaijan’s military positions and civilian areas around the Armenia-occupied Nagorno-Karabakh region, igniting border clashes that have left dozens dead on both sides.”

Armenia didn’t start these clashes, that’s internationally accepted.

Correct, Armenia didn’t start them. But when Armenian fake news sites try to make it like Azerbaijan and Turkey are declaring jihad on Christianity and the Armenian government’s official account posts a picture of a priest holding a gun while talking about “faith and power”, seems like they want to turn this into religious conflict, which has already garnered the support of right wingers and ultra-nationalists in Germany, Serbia and Greece.

[SD_Film Artists]

Not much, only a gun-toting priest on the Armenian government's official Twitter account

I wouldn’t say that’s evoking religion into this conflict. The photo is badass though, not sure how licit it is in the Church context.

True it's not being presented as a 'crusade' overall, but it's certainlly one justification and ralling call for that audiance. As for how acceptable it is for the church, the Orthodox church are no strangers to cosplaying the Grimdark. Infact just a few months ago the Russian orthodox church gave an edict that while the blessing of weapons and other equipment is still permited, the blessing of nuclear weapons is now banned.

I don’t deny the picture, but the context that website uses is literally false:

“ Azerbaijan yesterday declared a state of war in some of its cities and regions following attacks by Armenian forces on military and civilian sites over the weekend.

The decision was made in a meeting of Azerbaijan’s National Assembly yesterday, in which it enforced partial measures in its border regions which could temporarily restrict some rights and freedoms of Azeri citizens and foreigners due to the conflict.

It came after Armenian forces reportedly targeted Azerbaijan’s military positions and civilian areas around the Armenia-occupied Nagorno-Karabakh region, igniting border clashes that have left dozens dead on both sides.”

Armenia didn’t start these clashes, that’s internationally accepted.

That's an unfortunate tie-in from what may well be an Azeri-learning source.

[Lower Nubia]

I wouldn’t say that’s evoking religion into this conflict. The photo is badass though, not sure how licit it is in the Church context.

True it's not being presented as a 'crusade' overall, but it's certainlly one justification and ralling call for that audiance. As for how acceptable it is for the church, the Orthodox church are no strangers to cosplaying the Grimdark. Infact just a few months ago the Russian orthodox church gave an edict that while the blessing of weapons and other equipment is still permited, the blessing of nuclear weapons is now banned.

Well, this isn’t the Orthodox Church. This is the Coptic Orthodox Church. I know that the Orthodox Church blesses weapons (+4 Holy damage) but I’m not totally aware the Coptic’s do so (though they certainly might).

I think the point is to show the universality of the Armenian mission extends to all sectors of society - even the clergy. If an Imam in Azerbaijan was shown with a weapon, I wouldn’t say it was an attempt to make this a religious conflict by Azerbaijan part.

There’s very little evidence that Azerbaijan has wanted this framed in a religious dynamic rather than as a nationalistic territorial integrity one.

[Lower Nubia]

I wouldn’t say that’s evoking religion into this conflict. The photo is badass though, not sure how licit it is in the Church context.

I don’t deny the picture, but the context that website uses is literally false:

“ Azerbaijan yesterday declared a state of war in some of its cities and regions following attacks by Armenian forces on military and civilian sites over the weekend.

The decision was made in a meeting of Azerbaijan’s National Assembly yesterday, in which it enforced partial measures in its border regions which could temporarily restrict some rights and freedoms of Azeri citizens and foreigners due to the conflict.

It came after Armenian forces reportedly targeted Azerbaijan’s military positions and civilian areas around the Armenia-occupied Nagorno-Karabakh region, igniting border clashes that have left dozens dead on both sides.”

Armenia didn’t start these clashes, that’s internationally accepted.

Correct, Armenia didn’t start them. But when Armenian fake news sites try to make it like Azerbaijan and Turkey are declaring jihad on Christianity and the Armenian government’s official account posts a picture of a priest holding a gun while talking about “faith and power”, seems like they want to turn this into religious conflict, which has already garnered the support of right wingers and ultra-nationalists in Germany, Serbia and Greece.

The problem is that, is this framing an official government position, or the position of members of the population? No doubt during the Iraq Invasion there were those in the Deep South who would of seen Iraq as a religious conflict rather than a political one. That position doesn’t make it official government policy for the Iraq invasion.

Likewise I know factions in Azerbaijan have framed this in a religious dynamic but I don’t attribute that as Azerbaijan’s actual government policy towards this conflict.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

Classical Religious Armenian government aggression. We know that our Armenian brothers will not come to this game.

https://twitter.com/armenia/status/1310165919344320513?s=19

[Purpelia]

Classical Religious Armenian government aggression. We know that our Armenian brothers will not come to this game.

https://twitter.com/armenia/status/1310165919344320513?s=19

Is that one half of a dead chicken in his hand?

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

Classical Religious Armenian government aggression. We know that our Armenian brothers will not come to this game.

https://twitter.com/armenia/status/1310165919344320513?s=19

Is that one half of a dead chicken in his hand?

Holding a cross in his hand and thinks he's fighting for religion just like ISIS in Syria. Unfortunately, these people were not given enough education, this event is actually the fault of the whole world

[SD_Film Artists]

our Armenian brothers

You mean the people you want to forcibly displace?