Armenia-Azerbaijan Conflict: The Great Betrayal

[Albionist Great Britain]

BBC has a map of how the peace treaty will supposedly be implemented

Fuck. That map is absolutely vile.

[The Huskar Social Union]

BBC has a map of how the peace treaty will supposedly be implemented

Fuck. That map is absolutely vile.

I can understand why the armenian population seems to be leaving for Armenia proper. Absolutely no way they could defend this in another war.

[Salus Maior]

Probably so, hybrid war and all that. Hopefully it doesn't lead the Azerbaijanis to continue attacking and taking more territory, would be my main concern.

Not saying it's not a bitter pill to ask the Armenian people to swallow, but I am not interested in seeing North America reduced to radioactive ash because they were losing a war against some crazy Turk's friends and called Moscow for help.

I am very afraid of the radicals in the Armenian government. because they can brutally kill women and children for the supposed dream of great Armenia.There is this hostility from the bad mentality of politicians and radicals, it is just that neither side should be racist towards each other.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_ ... Federation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_ ... of_Armenia

Reminder, Azerbaijan has killed Armenian women and children.

Hell, the first people to die in this conflict was a woman and child when Azerbaijan started bombing cities in Artsakh. They broke the truce, and the people who are dead now, Azeri and Armenian alike, are dead because Aliyev sent that order.

If you believe in peace, and want to condemn anyone, condemn Aliyev.

[Salus Maior]

Considering the Armenian people just couped their government over this, they're not going to swallow it.

They're probably going to support an insurgency in Artsakh for as long as possible.

They haven't couped the government yet. They just broke into parliament and beat up the President of the National Assembly, Ararat Mirzoyan.

That's pretty damn close to a coup.

[Senkaku]

Fighting this ferociously over a couple of towns in an area smaller than Delaware remains bananas to me, but whatever. If they want to, then I guess go for it, but they're surrounded by powerful enemies who seem to be winning, and their history should show them that things can always get worse. Azerbaijan lost the last war, bought new weapons, and won this one. The Armenians are perfectly capable of doing the same if they'd rather do that than... any other meaningful collective national effort, I guess.

That's because you're looking at this from the position of American privilege. And I don't mean that as a jab.

The Armenian people have been on the losing side of history for a very long time, and they've lost so much of their heritage and homeland already through unimaginable injustices. We in the West, especially not in America, really know what it's like to live through that and be born in that context. We take for granted the security of our homeland, and the fact that we have a homeland.

Oh, I know. I just also don't understand why at a certain point, you wouldn't just... leave, or at least give up on trying to control stuff outside your borders. The Russians seem willing to protect them from outright invasion at least, at a certain point when you're the size of Armenia facing down the Turkish colossus you should maybe question if this isn't a futile endeavor and it might not be a better idea to hunker down and stock up on Russian missiles until some part of the equation changes.

[Rio Cana]

Considering the Armenian people just couped their government over this, they're not going to swallow it.

They're probably going to support an insurgency in Artsakh for as long as possible.

Fighting this ferociously over a couple of towns in an area smaller than Delaware remains bananas to me, but whatever. If they want to, then I guess go for it, but they're surrounded by powerful enemies who seem to be winning, and their history should show them that things can always get worse. Azerbaijan lost the last war, bought new weapons, and won this one. The Armenians are perfectly capable of doing the same if they'd rather do that than... any other meaningful collective national effort, I guess.

Its futile. They lost. Artsakh is surrounded now with modern Azeri weapons. At least they have five years to move everything they value to Armenia. They could even take take apart and resemble those historical Armenian castle/fortress since more then likely Azerbaijan will bulldoze them.

[The Restored Danelaw]

That's because you're looking at this from the position of American privilege. And I don't mean that as a jab.

The Armenian people have been on the losing side of history for a very long time, and they've lost so much of their heritage and homeland already through unimaginable injustices. We in the West, especially not in America, really know what it's like to live through that and be born in that context. We take for granted the security of our homeland, and the fact that we have a homeland.

Oh, I know. I just also don't understand why at a certain point, you wouldn't just... leave, or at least give up on trying to control stuff outside your borders. The Russians seem willing to protect them from outright invasion at least, at a certain point when you're the size of Armenia facing down the Turkish colossus you should maybe question if this isn't a futile endeavor and it might not be a better idea to hunker down and stock up on Russian missiles until some part of the equation changes.

Frankly because there's no insurance Russia will help them if it's willing to adhere to unjust laws not to involve itself in Artsakh already. As nobody really came to their aid against a genocidal enemy that has repeatedly called for their extermination simply because a land historically and demographically Armenian was unilaterally "granted" to Baku, there is no guarantee anyone will when Turks come to just, you know, finish the job. After all, it is just some fool thing in the Caucasus, what's more important? Some Armenians who can cut their losses and just, go live somewhere else (or more accurately be killed by a genocidal enemy) or avoiding WWIII?

[Punished UMN]

Oh, I know. I just also don't understand why at a certain point, you wouldn't just... leave, or at least give up on trying to control stuff outside your borders. The Russians seem willing to protect them from outright invasion at least, at a certain point when you're the size of Armenia facing down the Turkish colossus you should maybe question if this isn't a futile endeavor and it might not be a better idea to hunker down and stock up on Russian missiles until some part of the equation changes.

Frankly because there's no insurance Russia will help them if it's willing to adhere to unjust laws not to involve itself in Artsakh already. As nobody really came to their aid against a genocidal enemy that has repeatedly called for their extermination simply because a land historically and demographically Armenian was unilaterally "granted" to Baku, there is no guarantee anyone will when Turks come to just, you know, finish the job. After all, it is just some fool thing in the Caucasus, what's more important? Some Armenians who can cut their losses and just, go live somewhere else (or more accurately be killed by a genocidal enemy) or avoiding WWIII?

There's fundamentally a legal difference between invading Artsakh and invading Armenia-proper that would change things.

[Rio Cana]

That's because you're looking at this from the position of American privilege. And I don't mean that as a jab.

The Armenian people have been on the losing side of history for a very long time, and they've lost so much of their heritage and homeland already through unimaginable injustices. We in the West, especially not in America, really know what it's like to live through that and be born in that context. We take for granted the security of our homeland, and the fact that we have a homeland.

Oh, I know. I just also don't understand why at a certain point, you wouldn't just... leave, or at least give up on trying to control stuff outside your borders. The Russians seem willing to protect them from outright invasion at least, at a certain point when you're the size of Armenia facing down the Turkish colossus you should maybe question if this isn't a futile endeavor and it might not be a better idea to hunker down and stock up on Russian missiles until some part of the equation changes.

Armenia has bigger problems then Turkey. There population is 1.69 million. Yes, the official numbers say 2.96 million but that other 1.3 million they include are Armenian migrants. They include them in the numbers because they tend to return for a few weeks a year. Southern Armenia population is falling. Armenia needs to greatly increase its population. But to do that they need a large improvement in there economy. With a better economy people have more kids and Armenia can afford better weapons. One idea to increase population would be to try to persuade foreigners to move and work in Armenia. But again, to do that they need to improve there economy.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

How democratic can the opinions of those who support the coup in Armenia be ? Back to the point I mentioned, radical lack of education is the real problem of the region. The events in Armenia are really sad, I hope the barbarians who attacked the parliament will be arrested as soon as possible.

[Duvniask]

They haven't couped the government yet. They just broke into parliament and beat up the President of the National Assembly, Ararat Mirzoyan.

That's pretty damn close to a coup.

It's not a coup until it affects a change of leadership and power is seized for someone other than the current regime.

For now it's just violence against politicians and state institutions.

[The Restored Danelaw]

There's fundamentally a legal difference between invading Artsakh and invading Armenia-proper that would change things.

If you can use flimsy legal defenses not to help your ally not get 140,000 of its people ethnically cleansed and/or genocided, there is no guarantee you won't use some other flimsy excuse when they inevitably take their aggression one step further. The thing every country unfortunate enough to have to rely on Russian protection knows by heart is that Russia simply cannot be trusted to protect you. It's just that you don't have another option.

[Punished UMN]

There's fundamentally a legal difference between invading Artsakh and invading Armenia-proper that would change things.

If you can use flimsy legal defenses not to help your ally not get 140,000 of its people ethnically cleansed and/or genocided, there is no guarantee you won't use some other flimsy excuse when they inevitably take their aggression one step further. The thing every country unfortunate enough to have to rely on Russian protection knows by heart is that Russia simply cannot be trusted to protect you. It's just that you don't have another option.

Something that the entire world agrees is the bedrock of the international legal order is not a "flimsly legal defense."

[Albionist Great Britain]

How democratic can the opinions of those who support the coup in Armenia be ? Back to the point I mentioned, radical lack of education is the real problem of the region. The events in Armenia are really sad, I hope the barbarians who attacked the parliament will be arrested as soon as possible.

(Image)

Armenia is far more democratic than Baku, and the Artsakhis engaged in a democratic referendum of self determination. Yet you support the Nazis in this situation. You have no regard for democracy, human rights and peace - and you never did. Stop regurgitating Azeri propaganda and realise you’re taking the side of fascists and genocidaires, unless you’re knowingly supporting these but too afraid to openly say it?

[The Restored Danelaw]

If you can use flimsy legal defenses not to help your ally not get 140,000 of its people ethnically cleansed and/or genocided, there is no guarantee you won't use some other flimsy excuse when they inevitably take their aggression one step further. The thing every country unfortunate enough to have to rely on Russian protection knows by heart is that Russia simply cannot be trusted to protect you. It's just that you don't have another option.

Something that the entire world agrees is the bedrock of the international legal order is not a "flimsly legal defense."

Relying on an unjust law with no basis for its legitimacy (in this particular case, siding with Baku on the issue of Artsakh) to shy away from both helping an ally and protecting people who're about to be ethnically cleansed and/or genocided is not even a flimsy legal defense, it's just outright refusal to adhere to your side of the bargain. If international law gives Artsakh to Baku, it is international law that's wrong, as is anyone who recognizes Baku's claims.

[Punished UMN]

Something that the entire world agrees is the bedrock of the international legal order is not a "flimsly legal defense."

Relying on an unjust law with no basis for its legitimacy (in this particular case, siding with Baku on the issue of Artsakh) to shy away from both helping an ally and protecting people who're about to be ethnically cleansed and/or genocided is not even a flimsy legal defense, it's just outright refusal to adhere to your side of the bargain. If international law gives Artsakh to Baku, it is international law that's wrong, as is anyone who recognizes Baku's claims.

Just because a law is unjust doesn't mean it's not the law.

[The Restored Danelaw]

Relying on an unjust law with no basis for its legitimacy (in this particular case, siding with Baku on the issue of Artsakh) to shy away from both helping an ally and protecting people who're about to be ethnically cleansed and/or genocided is not even a flimsy legal defense, it's just outright refusal to adhere to your side of the bargain. If international law gives Artsakh to Baku, it is international law that's wrong, as is anyone who recognizes Baku's claims.

Just because a law is unjust doesn't mean it's not the law.

And just because it is law does not mean it should be respected, much less used as a flimsy excuse not to stop an aggressor practicing ethnic cleansing.

[Punished UMN]

Just because a law is unjust doesn't mean it's not the law.

And just because it is law does not mean it should be respected, much less used as a flimsy excuse not to stop an aggressor practicing ethnic cleansing.

Okay so who gets to pick and choose what laws we respect?

[The Restored Danelaw]

And just because it is law does not mean it should be respected, much less used as a flimsy excuse not to stop an aggressor practicing ethnic cleansing.

Okay so who gets to pick and choose what laws we respect?

I don't care who 'gets to pick and choose', what matters to me is that 140,000 people are at the risk of ethnic cleansing and genocide because Russia decided not to adhere to the spirit of an agreement it made with another country purely because an unjust law gave a land that is rightfully Armenian to a country that's all-but grounded on the idea of wiping out Armenians as a people.

[Senkaku]

Okay so who gets to pick and choose what laws we respect?

I don't care who 'gets to pick and choose', what matters to me is that 140,000 people are at the risk of ethnic cleansing and genocide because Russia decided not to adhere to the spirit of an agreement it made with another country purely because an unjust law gave a land that is rightfully Armenian to a country that's all-but grounded on the idea of wiping out Armenians as a people.

You expect any country to adhere to the "spirit" of an international defense treaty, rather than just the actual letter of the treaty agreement, when deciding whether or not go to war...? You do realize negotiations on that type of thing take so long because you have to expect people will only adhere to the letter of it, not the "spirit," right? That's... basically why diplomatic corps exist...

[Punished UMN]

Okay so who gets to pick and choose what laws we respect?

I don't care who 'gets to pick and choose', what matters to me is that 140,000 people are at the risk of ethnic cleansing and genocide because Russia decided not to adhere to the spirit of an agreement it made with another country purely because an unjust law gave a land that is rightfully Armenian to a country that's all-but grounded on the idea of wiping out Armenians as a people.

You don't care because you don't understand the consequences of throwing out things like the primacy of territorial integrity in international law. Maybe you will in 60 years when Azerbaijan finishes the job and there's no more Armenia because "the law was unjust" (according to the Azeris). If people get to make exceptions to law based on personal preference, everyone else gets to do that too, and then we no longer have a structured global order semi-governed by laws, then we have a neo-realist's wet dream.

[Vapormancer]

I don't care who 'gets to pick and choose', what matters to me is that 140,000 people are at the risk of ethnic cleansing and genocide because Russia decided not to adhere to the spirit of an agreement it made with another country purely because an unjust law gave a land that is rightfully Armenian to a country that's all-but grounded on the idea of wiping out Armenians as a people.

You expect any country to adhere to the "spirit" of an international defense treaty, rather than just the actual letter of the treaty agreement, when deciding whether or not go to war...? You do realize negotiations on that type of thing take so long because you have to expect people will only adhere to the letter of it, not the "spirit," right? That's... basically why diplomatic corps exist...

I thought the Diplomatic Corps existed to sabotage international interest and betray our allies or is that just a State Department matter? :^)

[Shofercia]

Russian Peacekeeping units from the 15th Detached Motorised Rifle Brigade are being deployed to Nagorno Karabakh

Should've happened much earlier.

Russia’s going to be useless, just like how we abandoned and sold out the Poles and other victims of the Nazi and Soviet regimes, they’ve abandoned and sold out the Armenians. The Armenians need to continue their fight until every last Azeri out for their blood is driven from Artsakh.

I don't recall Brits & French sending in Peacekeepers to let the Polish Jews evacuate, so no, it's not exactly like that.

So when does Turkey and Azerbaijan re-open there borders with Armenia. This should help Armenia's economy.

When the Armenian government apologized for the persecution of the Turkish people.We stand shoulder to shoulder against fascism

Da fuck? "We're sorry you Genocided us in the 1910s and 1920s" - that's the apology you're looking for?

They're losing the war. They should live to fight another day instead of going out in a blaze of glory if they have any sense about them. And you'll struggle to get Americans, Europeans, or Russians to take a hardline approach either in favor of Armenia or Azerbaijan, because it turns out, most of us are not fans of letting Erdogan start World War 3 between NATO and Russia over, quite literally, some damn fool thing in the Caucasus. The Armenians will have to just eat shit now and figure things out later, as the Kurds have had to for much the same reason. Not saying they've not been very hard done by by Turkish atrocities and bullying over the years, but unfortunately in that region, especially when it comes to small powers, the strong do what they will and the weak suffer what they must. That's what happens when you're close to God, but far from the United States.

From what I hear, some Armenian military units are refusing to stand down.

I imagine they're going to continue an insurgency in Artsakh for a while. Which, tbh, will probably be more effective than a conventional war.

Insurgency would be interesting. Putin said that Russia will defend CSTO Armenia, so if the insurgents can do hit and run tactics, and make it back to Armenia's internationally recognized borders without being identified, they might still salvage some semblance of a draw.

[Shofercia]

Considering the Armenian people just couped their government over this, they're not going to swallow it.

They're probably going to support an insurgency in Artsakh for as long as possible.

Fighting this ferociously over a couple of towns in an area smaller than Delaware remains bananas to me, but whatever. If they want to, then I guess go for it, but they're surrounded by powerful enemies who seem to be winning, and their history should show them that things can always get worse. Azerbaijan lost the last war, bought new weapons, and won this one. The Armenians are perfectly capable of doing the same if they'd rather do that than... any other meaningful collective national effort, I guess.

Azerbaijan had a ton of money, and an increasing population. They used technology and sheer numbers, as well as foreign mercs. Armenia's best option is insurgency warfare.

Probably so, hybrid war and all that. Hopefully it doesn't lead the Azerbaijanis to continue attacking and taking more territory, would be my main concern.

Not saying it's not a bitter pill to ask the Armenian people to swallow, but I am not interested in seeing North America reduced to radioactive ash because they were losing a war against some crazy Turk's friends and called Moscow for help.

I am very afraid of the radicals in the Armenian government. because they can brutally kill women and children for the supposed dream of great Armenia.There is this hostility from the bad mentality of politicians and radicals, it is just that neither side should be racist towards each other.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_ ... Federation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_ ... of_Armenia

Maybe attacking their homes with drones contributed to the hostility?

Something that the entire world agrees is the bedrock of the international legal order is not a "flimsly legal defense."

Relying on an unjust law with no basis for its legitimacy (in this particular case, siding with Baku on the issue of Artsakh) to shy away from both helping an ally and protecting people who're about to be ethnically cleansed and/or genocided is not even a flimsy legal defense, it's just outright refusal to adhere to your side of the bargain. If international law gives Artsakh to Baku, it is international law that's wrong, as is anyone who recognizes Baku's claims.

Why do you think the Russian Peacekeepers are there? To defend the people. Russia stayed neutral in the war, and that was a failure, but Russia's recent Peace Deal prevented the Genocide of Astarkh. Let's not lose sight of that.

[Vapormancer]

Why do you think the Russian Peacekeepers are there? To defend the people. Russia stayed neutral in the war, and that was a failure, but Russia's recent Peace Deal prevented the Genocide of Astarkh. Let's not lose sight of that.

Genocide! I've never heard such a good joke. Next you'll tell me the Russians "genocided" the Germans with that logic. Tell me, is population relocation genocide? If so, when do we haul Russian WW2 veterans before the Hague?