Armenia-Azerbaijan Conflict: The Great Betrayal

[-Ocelot-]

So once again the West abandons a Christian nation....

Isn't that good? No western imperialism and all? Besides, Armenia has their Russian orthodox brothers to help them.

Oh wait Russia actually sided with Turkey/Azerbaijan. What a shocker.

[Faaruma]

So once again the West abandons a Christian nation....

Isn't that good? No western imperialism and all? Besides, Armenia has their Russian orthodox brothers to help them.

Oh wait Russia actually sided with Turkey/Azerbaijan. What a shocker.

How is this a good thing? 3 million Armenian christians against a horde of up to 80 million Turks in Turkey and Azerbaijan

[Novus America]

Isn't that good? No western imperialism and all? Besides, Armenia has their Russian orthodox brothers to help them.

Oh wait Russia actually sided with Turkey/Azerbaijan. What a shocker.

How is this a good thing? 3 million Armenian christians against a horde of up to 80 million Turks in Turkey and Azerbaijan

He was being sarcastic.

[Aureumterra III]

What the fuck happened to Putin?

[Novus America]

What the fuck happened to Putin?

Putin got what he wanted. This greatly weakened the PM of Armenia, a reformist Putin dislikes, gives Armenia’s corrupt oligarchs a chance to overthrow said PM and replace Armenia’s new democracy with a corrupt oligarchy again, increases Russian influence in the region, while keeping Russia on good terms with Azerbaijan and Turkey here.

Sure he had to throw the Armenians of Nagorno Karabakh under the bus to do it, but throwing people under the bus is how Putin rolls.
This is perfectly in keeping with his sociopathic and self serving nature.

[Tekke]

How come the illegal occupation was seen as such by the entire world, except for, well, Armenia?

Like your rule of Northern Cyprus?????

You should stop thinking that those who are not blindly supporting the Armenian side on this conflict are Turkish or Azerbaijani.
I'm German, if that is relevant for your argumentation.

Also, Whataboutism is a sign of lacking interest and/or a way to distract from the actual topic.
But I am open to discuss the intervention of Cyprus in DMs with you, if you insist. However, that is off-topic in this thread.

This wasn't a religious conflict to begin with, even if Armenia wanted to convince christian nations it was.
Russia saw that and did the right thing by not supporting the Armenian regime but rather find a way to bring back peace.

Of course nobody would have wanted this to escalate but since Armenia did not stop the occupation, there wasn't much left for Azerbaijan other than to liberate the area with military force.
Armenian military should not have been in Azerbaijani territory in the first place.

[Salus Maior]

I'm German, if that is relevant for your argumentation.

Also, Whataboutism is a sign of lacking interest and/or a way to distract from the actual topic.
But I am open to discuss the intervention of Cyprus in DMs with you, if you insist. However, that is off-topic in this thread.

This wasn't a religious conflict to begin with, even if Armenia wanted to convince christian nations it was.
Russia saw that and did the right thing by not supporting the Armenian regime but rather find a way to bring back peace.

Of course nobody would have wanted this to escalate but since Armenia did not stop the occupation, there wasn't much left for Azerbaijan other than to liberate the area with military force.
Armenian military should not have been in Azerbaijani territory in the first place.

What's your ancestry?

And yeah, it's not about religion. It's about ethnicity and protecting the Armenian people of Artsakh from being ethnically cleansed and abused by the Azeris after they had already committed multiple pogroms against them.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

Like your rule of Northern Cyprus?????

You should stop thinking that those who are not blindly supporting the Armenian side on this conflict are Turkish or Azerbaijani.
I'm German, if that is relevant for your argumentation.

Also, Whataboutism is a sign of lacking interest and/or a way to distract from the actual topic.
But I am open to discuss the intervention of Cyprus in DMs with you, if you insist. However, that is off-topic in this thread.

This wasn't a religious conflict to begin with, even if Armenia wanted to convince christian nations it was.
Russia saw that and did the right thing by not supporting the Armenian regime but rather find a way to bring back peace.

Of course nobody would have wanted this to escalate but since Armenia did not stop the occupation, there wasn't much left for Azerbaijan other than to liberate the area with military force.
Armenian military should not have been in Azerbaijani territory in the first place.

I don't think they are worth discussing as they defend religious ethnic Armenian nationalism, they don't care about children.They are doing just like akp voters

[Salus Maior]

I don't think they are worth discussing as they defend religious ethnic Armenian nationalism, they don't care about children.They are doing just like akp voters

You can read English, right?

I mean this sincerely, because that's the only explanation that explains how you would have taken that from what we've been saying.

[Faaruma]

You should stop thinking that those who are not blindly supporting the Armenian side on this conflict are Turkish or Azerbaijani.
I'm German, if that is relevant for your argumentation.

Also, Whataboutism is a sign of lacking interest and/or a way to distract from the actual topic.
But I am open to discuss the intervention of Cyprus in DMs with you, if you insist. However, that is off-topic in this thread.

This wasn't a religious conflict to begin with, even if Armenia wanted to convince christian nations it was.
Russia saw that and did the right thing by not supporting the Armenian regime but rather find a way to bring back peace.

Of course nobody would have wanted this to escalate but since Armenia did not stop the occupation, there wasn't much left for Azerbaijan other than to liberate the area with military force.
Armenian military should not have been in Azerbaijani territory in the first place.

I don't think they are worth discussing as they defend religious ethnic Armenian nationalism, they don't care about children.They are doing just like akp voters

Bruh Azerbaijan is a friend to the Jews in Palestine, if anyone doesn't care about children its them.

[New Rogernomics]

It is entertaining to hear the usual 'we need Turkey' line, as Turkey plans to invade two EU members Greece and Cyprus next, and Merkel's response is to keep signing trade deals with Erdogan, while ignoring human rights abuses and the collapse of democracy in Turkey. If Erdogan gets to revive the Ottoman Empire, maybe they can take Vienna this time.

That's also coming from the poster who thinks that Russia's attack on Germany and France is going to occur. Why not Spain? Liberate Catalonia! The only country that Russia intervened in, outside of the USSR, was Syria, and that's to keep the current regime in power. With the exception of the two World Wars, Russia didn't invade Germany, and the last time Russia invaded France was in response to Napoleon's Invasion of Russia in 1812. But hey, who needs History when you can bullshit?

Technically Europe and the US could do without NATO, as how effective or useful has it really been for 'keeping the peace'? It was only ever individual nations and political leaders, or soldiers doing their duty at missile sites that prevented war between Russia and NATO countries. If the Russian Federation hypothetically wanted to it could overrun much of NATO, but the key word there is want, and the Soviet Union saw the Warsaw Pact as a buffer zone and a defensive strategy - and not as a sinister plot for them to conquer Europe. No doubt Russia wants to have political inroads into the Baltics, but that is quite different from plotting an invasion.

Reality is that the EU and US could sit down tomorrow with Russia and hash out an agreement to end NATO, demilitarize borders, and gradually dismantle missile sites and reduce contingents on existing military bases, but that would upset the cold war mentality, which argues that Russia is just waiting to invade Europe and forge a continental Russian Federation AKA like this is a game of Red Alert or something rather than real life.

The losers of peace would be the weapons companies on all sides that have profited from war in the Caucasus and hypothetical future wars in Europe, and make money based on paranoia and extreme nationalism. That's why NATO is here to stay, even though rather than creating peace, it just creates an opportunity for world war three.

[Panslavicland]

So let me get this straight: Aliyev and Erdogan started an atrocious war, and were rewarded for it. All all five Great UNSC Powers just stood by and watched. Yes, I realize I'm also including Russia here, but this was absolutely sickening. Might won over Right today, and that was wrong. The problem is that now you've encouraged wars of aggression, as long as they're not against a specific region protected by any Great Power. Open season in Africa - go for it. Survivor Somalia, why not?

The last thing this conflict needs is America, France or Britain suddenly deciding that this conflict is something they can fix and getting involved where they are not welcome. For once they actually did the right thing and minded their own business.

[Vapormancer]

They tie down Russian troops by dint of being a wildcard of hostility or neutrality. Either is to our advantage. How many troops is Greece worth? Not any at all. I would disagree, France under the reign of a man who chose to start a contest of strength with his own people after cutting police pensions and the places which make police gear is under the rule of somebody more unstable than even the Sultan. Even worse, he thinks that a token force of anything matters against a serious country.

Re Haftar, that horse left the stable. Our government chose to back Tripoli. You can not put back time. They saved our bacon, insane and dumb as it was. The US and Italy owe them for this.

I would like to live in a world where we did not have rabies for foreign policy but alas, I did not get that world. We have to deal with it as it is and in the frame work of actions which are possible. To that end, Turkey is more valuable than Greece or posturing over some skirmish between irrelevant countries in the middle of nowhere.

But Turkey would serve the same wild card value outside NATO. Sure Turkey being so damn crazy keeps Russia guessing, but they do not need to be in NATO to keep being a crazy rogue state that sometimes causes Russia trouble.

Greece is actually one of the better NATO militaries, but again selling them out to Turkey kills NATO. You give Greece to Turkey, NATO dies. Because what is the use of an alliance that fails to protect its own members?

And “owe” means nothing. We do not owe them anything for them saving the Tripoli regime, even if we recognize the Tripoli regime. Even it did help us, (it did not) we still do not need to repay them for being kind of on our side on a mistake.

Sure no need to start a fight with Turkey over this, but they are not our friends.

Yes, have 10 more servicable planes than the Luftwaffe is one of the better ones but that does not mean it compares to the 500 or so F-16/F-4s the Turks can keep handy. Being more useful than Germany is a very very low bar.

NATO is already dead then because we have let its members get into dust ups before! Regarding an alliance that fails to protect is own members, it is meant to protect against Ivan, that is its entire purpose and why we put up with the fictions we do.

Regarding Tripoli, again, take your problem up with our insane government. You are existing in a fantasy world where we are rational actors. We are not, we are insane and our priorities are insane.

If you want to play the good guy, then you ought to have been convincing your fellow citizens not to hold insane worldviews.

NATO members have had flare ups before, a conflict is not new. Also what is not new is a NATO member under a dicatorship, infact we used to like it. Nothing is new under the sun. I disagree regarding Russia but that is a matter of disagreement neither of us can prove beyond a few assertions.

Why would we oppose the bailing out of our insanity in Libya or backing of a buffer state in Syria to make Assad's life difficult? I thought we were supposed to be toppling Assad or some other such irresponsible thing? The Greece situation makes sense too if you don't want them reliant on Russian or Arab gas.

Sure we have had issues before, but not any as bad as Erdogan. At least in the past 40 years or so. Again they did no bail us out, as although we recognize the Tripoli regime, we care little for it. Had Tripoli fallen we would have forgotten about it week later. And Turkey occupying part of Syria pisses off Assad, but Russia is fine with it.

And actually no, Turkey does not have its own gas. It moves Russian gas too.

Turkey opposing Greece building a gas pipeline to Israel hurts our attempts to reduce European reliance on Russian gas.

But these are all separate issues. I agree we had no ability to intervene in the Armenian Azerbaijan fight, and it is over anyways.
Although the problem is with Azerbaijan showing one can again go back to pre WWII type actions, is that more follow suit.

That is the problem, that other countries will now see war is the way to solve their perceived problems. But again the cat is out of the bag, the die is cast.

We just have to be ready for the dark days ahead, massively increased military spending, arm ourselves as best we can.
In a dog eat dog world, you have to be a big mean dog, or food. Armenia was not a big enough dog.

Perhaps you did not see the bit where I put the Greek situation would reduce their reliance on Russian and Arab gas. You misread that portion.

Yes, other countries now see war as a solution. Nor will our allies or so called rebel groups trust us. The idiots at the Hague with all of their righteous indignation keep punishing our own people. Nobody will side with us again out of any sort of altruism or even pragmatism. We have shown we are so insane that we will punish you for being the victor after the war and having sided with us! Right now the geniuses in Berlin are patting themselves on the back for another act of self-suicide.

You are ready though regarding the state of the world. Peace as a norm was always a luxury bought in American blood, treasure and ability. All three are nearing their end.

No, I accused Russia of punishing a country for crossing it. As for Turkey, it is a serious country, with serious leadership unlike France and Germany. That is ok Shof, I will walk you through step by step if you want. Or you can skip to the part where you try to mass report me and spare us both time!

Odd, because I thought that we were talking about Israel, but apparently you cannot admit defeat, so when you lose, you simply launch into personal tirades and random charges.

You attempted to veer off, I checked you. If you don't want to play anymore Shof, thats fine. Just another notch on the belt!

No, I accused Russia of punishing a country for crossing it. As for Turkey, it is a serious country, with serious leadership unlike France and Germany. That is ok Shof, I will walk you through step by step if you want. Or you can skip to the part where you try to mass report me and spare us both time!

What is your marker for "serious countries" and "serious leaderships"? It can't be the economy, because Turkey's been going down the drain for years now, with rampant capital flight and currency devaluation. It can't be social cohesion, because Erdogan has been dividing, bullying and fear-mongering his own population for years now, with the absolute majority of Turks declaring that they would move abroad if they had the possibility. It can't be political stability either, because the workings of the Turkish government's inner power circle is a neverending part-byzantine, part-mafia and part circus clown show spirale - just yesterday, Erdogan's son-in-law got sacked from his prestigious gov post for reasons yet unknown.
Oh and it very obviously can't be stuff like civil rights, division of powers, transparency and so forth either.

So what is it? Who can bang his fists on the table in the most authoritarian and brutish way possible, in both domestic and foreign policy? If so yes, the Turkish leadership beats those of the other NATO countries by a long mile.

Serious countries can enforce their will and defend themselves. Unserious countries commit suicide and send letters from the Chancelleries about this or that, demanding halt lines and then whining when nothing is done. Unserious countries do not believe any of the above is a problem. The Turks know they are in a nightmare but your wonderful Der Spiegel holds the corpse of the Greek economy up as a success story!

Though regarding civil rights and transparency, what civil rights does Europe have? Don't make me laugh. They arrest you for saying the wrong thing too. Europe used to be full of very serious countries with lots of capability. The only thing they can do now is arrest their own allies to feed their sense of righteousness.

Perhaps if Germany had more than 9 working tanks or France would send more than two measly airplanes it has working, the Turks might care what they have to say on Greece.

As for Turkey, it is a serious country, with serious leadership unlike France and Germany.

come on now dot png

Based and smuggling pilled.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

If you want to see the Aggression of Armenian Nationalism, you can look at Ararat Mirzoyana. Religious Armenian Nationalists again persecute the people of Armenia.

[The Restored Danelaw]

If you want to see the Aggression of Armenian Nationalism, you can look at Ararat Mirzoyana. Religious Armenian Nationalists again persecute the people of Armenia.

(Image)

Against Turks, nothing is 'aggression' until they've been limited to Anatolia proper.

[Shofercia]

So once again the West abandons a Christian nation....

Isn't that good? No western imperialism and all? Besides, Armenia has their Russian orthodox brothers to help them.

Oh wait Russia actually sided with Turkey/Azerbaijan. What a shocker.

Russia remained neutral, whereas you're making it look like Russia actively supported one side, which is total bullshit.

[Shofercia]

Odd, because I thought that we were talking about Israel, but apparently you cannot admit defeat, so when you lose, you simply launch into personal tirades and random charges.

You attempted to veer off, I checked you. If you don't want to play anymore Shof, thats fine. Just another notch on the belt!

Project much? Of course you do!

[Shofercia]

What the fuck happened to Putin?

He made a mistake, just like he did with Libya. Contrary to memes, he's very much a human being.

What the fuck happened to Putin?

Putin got what he wanted. This greatly weakened the PM of Armenia, a reformist Putin dislikes, gives Armenia’s corrupt oligarchs a chance to overthrow said PM and replace Armenia’s new democracy with a corrupt oligarchy again, increases Russian influence in the region, while keeping Russia on good terms with Azerbaijan and Turkey here.

Sure he had to throw the Armenians of Nagorno Karabakh under the bus to do it, but throwing people under the bus is how Putin rolls.
This is perfectly in keeping with his sociopathic and self serving nature.

If the current PM wasn't corrupt, why didn't he drastically improve the quality of the Armed Forces of Armenia? Apparently, according to Novus, you're only corrupt if you're pro-Putin.

That's also coming from the poster who thinks that Russia's attack on Germany and France is going to occur. Why not Spain? Liberate Catalonia! The only country that Russia intervened in, outside of the USSR, was Syria, and that's to keep the current regime in power. With the exception of the two World Wars, Russia didn't invade Germany, and the last time Russia invaded France was in response to Napoleon's Invasion of Russia in 1812. But hey, who needs History when you can bullshit?

Technically Europe and the US could do without NATO, as how effective or useful has it really been for 'keeping the peace'? It was only ever individual nations and political leaders, or soldiers doing their duty at missile sites that prevented war between Russia and NATO countries. If the Russian Federation hypothetically wanted to it could overrun much of NATO, but the key word there is want, and the Soviet Union saw the Warsaw Pact as a buffer zone and a defensive strategy - and not as a sinister plot for them to conquer Europe. No doubt Russia wants to have political inroads into the Baltics, but that is quite different from plotting an invasion.

Reality is that the EU and US could sit down tomorrow with Russia and hash out an agreement to end NATO, demilitarize borders, and gradually dismantle missile sites and reduce contingents on existing military bases, but that would upset the cold war mentality, which argues that Russia is just waiting to invade Europe and forge a continental Russian Federation AKA like this is a game of Red Alert or something rather than real life.

The losers of peace would be the weapons companies on all sides that have profited from war in the Caucasus and hypothetical future wars in Europe, and make money based on paranoia and extreme nationalism. That's why NATO is here to stay, even though rather than creating peace, it just creates an opportunity for world war three.

That's very true, and I think one of the things that's missing from the discussion, is a simple question: even if Russia conquers France and Germany, could Russia rule them? We already know the answer - nope. Russia's economy doesn't have the strength to incorporate either France or Germany, much less both nations. Look at what happened to America's Economy when the US attempted to rule Iraq...

Also, let's look at Russia's actions in Ukraine - Putin didn't even take Central Ukraine, although he could've easily arrived in Kiev. I don't see Russia going past the Belarus-Ukraine-Moldova line, unless there's so much repression of ethnic Russians in the Baltics, that the EU abandons them; but the repression's actually been decreasing.

[Rio Cana]

So when does Turkey and Azerbaijan re-open there borders with Armenia. This should help Armenia's economy.

[Kowani]

Speaker of the Armenian Parliament assaulted by protestors, undergoing surgery.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Russian Peacekeeping units from the 15th Detached Motorised Rifle Brigade are being deployed to Nagorno Karabakh

[Rio Cana]

The following article informative from Asia-Times dated Oct. 28 which explains the situation for Russia. Why they needed a quick end to the war in order to get Turkey out of Azerbaijan. And why regime change in Armenia could have been in the cards in order to achieve an end to the war.

Read - https://asiatimes.com/2020/10/russia-ma ... n-armenia/

[Albionist Great Britain]

Like your rule of Northern Cyprus?????

You should stop thinking that those who are not blindly supporting the Armenian side on this conflict are Turkish or Azerbaijani.
I'm German, if that is relevant for your argumentation.

Also, Whataboutism is a sign of lacking interest and/or a way to distract from the actual topic.
But I am open to discuss the intervention of Cyprus in DMs with you, if you insist. However, that is off-topic in this thread.

This wasn't a religious conflict to begin with, even if Armenia wanted to convince christian nations it was.
Russia saw that and did the right thing by not supporting the Armenian regime but rather find a way to bring back peace.

Of course nobody would have wanted this to escalate but since Armenia did not stop the occupation, there wasn't much left for Azerbaijan other than to liberate the area with military force.
Armenian military should not have been in Azerbaijani territory in the first place.

It wouldn’t be in “Azerbaijani territory” if Baku respected the rights of Armenians in Artsakh. But they didn’t, and the Baku regime continues to hold the belief Armenia is a fake nation and that Armenians are foreign pests squatting on ‘their’ lands.

If you want to see the Aggression of Armenian Nationalism, you can look at Ararat Mirzoyana. Religious Armenian Nationalists again persecute the people of Armenia.

(Image)

Against Turks, nothing is 'aggression' until they've been limited to Anatolia proper.

Why stop at Anatolia?

Russian Peacekeeping units from the 15th Detached Motorised Rifle Brigade are being deployed to Nagorno Karabakh

Russia’s going to be useless, just like how we abandoned and sold out the Poles and other victims of the Nazi and Soviet regimes, they’ve abandoned and sold out the Armenians. The Armenians need to continue their fight until every last Azeri out for their blood is driven from Artsakh.

[Tekke]

The Armenians need to continue their fight until every last Azeri out for their blood is driven from Artsakh.

[Dowaesk]

The war is over and from what i see Azerbaijan won. Forget the past and focus on a better future. Turkey has not been a great country in these recent years. In fact not even in their last years of their great empire. But I really think Turkey could be the solution to the crisis in the Middle East. Israel is obviously not the solution and niether is the so called fake caliphate. Turkey has a lot of mistakes to overcome though. And by a lot i mean A LOT.