Armenia-Azerbaijan Conflict: The Great Betrayal

[Novus America]

I found this translation of the deal on reddit which is based on the text in this article (its in russian i think)

I don't doubt the translation but I wonder what it means by Shushi not being effected. If the city stays in Azeri hands it will be devastating for Artsakh since the town is on a very strategic area outside the capital. The Azerbaijani military could easily turn Stepanakert into the next Siege of Sarajevo if they are left in control of the town.

Although I guess if Russia troops secure Stepanakert, that should work. Azerbaijan will not (intentionally) attack Russian troops.

[Novus America]

I don't doubt the translation but I wonder what it means by Shushi not being effected. If the city stays in Azeri hands it will be devastating for Artsakh since the town is on a very strategic area outside the capital. The Azerbaijani military could easily turn Stepanakert into the next Siege of Sarajevo if they are left in control of the town.

I think it means that the town will remain under Armenian control as part of the corridor as i think they would need to control that town for the corridor to function properly.

I would be surprised Azerbaijan would give up the town, as that would seem to be very politically problematic.
I guess we will have to wait to see the details. That part is quite unclear.

[Heloin]

Really hope that the Azerbaijanis don't ethnically cleanse the returned territory of its Armenian population.

Keep hoping. Turkey denies the genocide from a century ago, Ilham Aliyev and his government actively state that Armenia as a country shouldn't exist.

[Heloin]

I think it means that the town will remain under Armenian control as part of the corridor as i think they would need to control that town for the corridor to function properly.

I would be surprised Azerbaijan would give up the town, as that would seem to be very politically problematic.
I guess we will have to wait to see the details. That part is quite unclear.

I could see them giving it up as part of the current peace, if that holds. Holding the town makes them a target from Armenia and Russia who don't want Stepanakert in such a vulnerable position.

I think it's likely the town will fall under the control of Russian peacekeepers to try and placate both sides

[Novus America]

I would be surprised Azerbaijan would give up the town, as that would seem to be very politically problematic.
I guess we will have to wait to see the details. That part is quite unclear.

I could see them giving it up as part of the current peace, if that holds. Holding the town makes them a target from Armenia and Russia who don't want Stepanakert in such a vulnerable position.

I think it's likely the town will fall under the control of Russian peacekeepers to try and placate both sides

I guess we will see. But Azerbaijan made a big deal about taking it being one of their objectives.
Giving it back would be unpopular.

Armenia does not really have much a choice. And Russia is not really helping Armenia much here.

[Rio Cana]

Supposedly, 2/3 of Armenians of Artsakh have already left before this ceasefire. Chances are very few if any of them will be going back to a Artsakh surrounded by Azeri military. Economically, because of parts of Artsakh are now part of Azerbaijan, the smaller Artsakh will become economically unviable. No economy means depopulation of Artsakh. The Azeris just need to wait for Artsakh to be emptied of Armenians beofre moving in. That is if a smaller Artsakh was allowed to exist.

The Armenians should just have pulled out. It would have been better. That deal they took is a bad deal because of article 9. Article 9 will allow Nakchivan (western Azerbaijan) and Azerbaijan proper to be economically connected via southern Armenia. So Armenia lost Artsakh and at the same time allows Azerbaijan a short and direct route to Nakhchivan.

Edit - This deal could be somewhat acceptable if tons of Azeri oil money flowed into Armenia. Hopefully, this should end the century old feud between Armenia and Azerbaijan.

[Heloin]

Supposedly, 2/3 of Armenians of Artsakh have already left before this ceasefire. Chances are very few if any of them will be going back to a Artsakh surrounded by Azeri military. Economically, because of parts of Artsakh are now part of Azerbaijan, the smaller Artsakh will become economically unviable. No economy means depopulation of Artsakh. The Azeris just need to wait for Artsakh to be emptied of Armenians beofre moving in. That is if a smaller Artsakh was allowed to exist.

The Armenians should just have pulled out. It would have been better. That deal they took is a bad deal because of article 9. Article 9 will allow Nakchivan (western Azerbaijan) and Azerbaijan proper to be economically connected via southern Armenia. So Armenia lost Artsakh and at the same time allows Azerbaijan a short and direct route to Nakhchivan.

Azerbaijan's plan from the beginning has been the removal or extermination of Armenians in the Karabakh, that is not new.. What we are seeing now is a peace that will not last long, maybe a few years at best. But unless there is a peace that grants independence to Artsakh or Azerbaijan carries out it's planned genocide the war isn't over. Azerbaijan won it's first battle in a thirty year war, lets see what happens next.

The actual radical change no one seems to realise is that Russia just guaranteed Russian soldiers in Artsakh.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

The Aims of the Turkish Enemies are once again buried in history, long live a fully independent and just Azerbaijan. According to reports, the occupation forces will be withdrawn from Azerbaijani territory until December 1, 2020. Pashinyan fled to Sochi

[Rio Cana]

Supposedly, 2/3 of Armenians of Artsakh have already left before this ceasefire. Chances are very few if any of them will be going back to a Artsakh surrounded by Azeri military. Economically, because of parts of Artsakh are now part of Azerbaijan, the smaller Artsakh will become economically unviable. No economy means depopulation of Artsakh. The Azeris just need to wait for Artsakh to be emptied of Armenians beofre moving in. That is if a smaller Artsakh was allowed to exist.

The Armenians should just have pulled out. It would have been better. That deal they took is a bad deal because of article 9. Article 9 will allow Nakchivan (western Azerbaijan) and Azerbaijan proper to be economically connected via southern Armenia. So Armenia lost Artsakh and at the same time allows Azerbaijan a short and direct route to Nakhchivan.

Azerbaijan's plan from the beginning has been the removal or extermination of Armenians in the Karabakh, that is not new.. What we are seeing now is a peace that will not last long, maybe a few years at best. But unless there is a peace that grants independence to Artsakh or Azerbaijan carries out it's planned genocide the war isn't over. Azerbaijan won it's first battle in a thirty year war, lets see what happens next.

The actual radical change no one seems to realise is that Russia just guaranteed Russian soldiers in Artsakh.

And what happens when the Russians are pulled out. Chances are the Artsakh military will not be able to re-establish itself with the Russians there. So who will protect Artsakh without the Russians. Ask the East Timorese and Sahrawi what happened when the Portuguese and Spanish pulled out. Artsakh is lost. Time to turn the page and fortify Armenia.

[Novus America]

Azerbaijan's plan from the beginning has been the removal or extermination of Armenians in the Karabakh, that is not new.. What we are seeing now is a peace that will not last long, maybe a few years at best. But unless there is a peace that grants independence to Artsakh or Azerbaijan carries out it's planned genocide the war isn't over. Azerbaijan won it's first battle in a thirty year war, lets see what happens next.

The actual radical change no one seems to realise is that Russia just guaranteed Russian soldiers in Artsakh.

And what happens when the Russians are pulled out. Chances are the Artsakh military will not be able to re-establish itself with the Russians there. So who will protect Artsakh without the Russians. Ask the East Timorese and Sahrawi what happened when the Portuguese and Spanish pulled out. Artsakh is lost. Time to turn the page and fortify Armenia.

When Russian troops go somewhere like this, they rarely leave. See Moldova.

But you are correct, (what remains of) Artsakh will be completely reliant on Russia to survive.

[Heloin]

Azerbaijan's plan from the beginning has been the removal or extermination of Armenians in the Karabakh, that is not new.. What we are seeing now is a peace that will not last long, maybe a few years at best. But unless there is a peace that grants independence to Artsakh or Azerbaijan carries out it's planned genocide the war isn't over. Azerbaijan won it's first battle in a thirty year war, lets see what happens next.

The actual radical change no one seems to realise is that Russia just guaranteed Russian soldiers in Artsakh.

And what happens when the Russians are pulled out. Chances are the Artsakh military will not be able to re-establish itself with the Russians there. So who will protect Artsakh without the Russians. Ask the East Timorese and Sahrawi what happened when the Portuguese and Spanish pulled out. Artsakh is lost. Time to turn the page and fortify Armenia.

You've generally made good points for someone who said they didn't know much about the region or conflict before this. Your current take on the situation is bad, really bad.

[Heloin]

The Aims of the Turkish Enemies are once again buried in history, long live a fully independent and just Azerbaijan. According to reports, the occupation forces will be withdrawn from Azerbaijani territory until December 1, 2020.

(Image)

Just another reminder that you always seem to need that you're supporting a war of extermination.

Armenia as a country is of no value. It is actually a colony, an outpost run from abroad, a territory artificially created on ancient Azerbaijani lands. - Ilham Aliyev, President of Azerbaijan

And what happens when the Russians are pulled out. Chances are the Artsakh military will not be able to re-establish itself with the Russians there. So who will protect Artsakh without the Russians. Ask the East Timorese and Sahrawi what happened when the Portuguese and Spanish pulled out. Artsakh is lost. Time to turn the page and fortify Armenia.

When Russian troops go somewhere like this, they rarely leave. See Moldova.

But you are correct, Artsakh will be completely reliant on Russia to survive.

I've been to Artsakh, that's a change of pace that people would like.

[Rio Cana]

And what happens when the Russians are pulled out. Chances are the Artsakh military will not be able to re-establish itself with the Russians there. So who will protect Artsakh without the Russians. Ask the East Timorese and Sahrawi what happened when the Portuguese and Spanish pulled out. Artsakh is lost. Time to turn the page and fortify Armenia.

When Russian troops go somewhere like this, they rarely leave. See Moldova.

But you are correct, (what remains of) Artsakh will be completely reliant on Russia to survive.

Never say never. If by some chance there is political change in Russia then anything could happen. They might recall there troops.

[Heloin]

When Russian troops go somewhere like this, they rarely leave. See Moldova.

But you are correct, (what remains of) Artsakh will be completely reliant on Russia to survive.

Never say never. If by some chance there is political change in Russia then anything could happen. They might recall there troops.

And maybe I’ll win the lottery tomorrow.

[Salus Maior]

The Aims of the Turkish Enemies are once again buried in history, long live a fully independent and just Azerbaijan. According to reports, the occupation forces will be withdrawn from Azerbaijani territory until December 1, 2020. Pashinyan fled to Sochi

(Image)

Turkey and Azerbaijan will have their day. Enjoy your ill-gotten gains while you can, one day it will all be dust.

[Rio Cana]

Armenia's problem is that they are still using Soviet weapons. Not having a strong economy they really cannot afford much. Azerbaijan was using more modern weapons since they can afford it.

Latest news is that angry Armenians have stormed the Armenian government building. Seems someone will be losing his job.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

The Aims of the Turkish Enemies are once again buried in history, long live a fully independent and just Azerbaijan. According to reports, the occupation forces will be withdrawn from Azerbaijani territory until December 1, 2020. Pashinyan fled to Sochi

(Image)

Turkey and Azerbaijan will have their day. Enjoy your ill-gotten gains while you can, one day it will all be dust.

victory belongs to science and justice. With this agreement, the Armenian government made the best decision. I wish you happy and conscientious days, stay with peace

[Novus America]

The Aims of the Turkish Enemies are once again buried in history, long live a fully independent and just Azerbaijan. According to reports, the occupation forces will be withdrawn from Azerbaijani territory until December 1, 2020.

(Image)

Just another reminder that you always seem to need that you're supporting a war of extermination.

Armenia as a country is of no value. It is actually a colony, an outpost run from abroad, a territory artificially created on ancient Azerbaijani lands. - Ilham Aliyev, President of Azerbaijan

When Russian troops go somewhere like this, they rarely leave. See Moldova.

But you are correct, Artsakh will be completely reliant on Russia to survive.

I've been to Artsakh, that's a change of pace that people would like.

Sure, Russia is not as strong as it pretends to be, but it is stronger than Azerbaijan or Armenia.
But this raises an alarming question, how will smaller states keep from becoming mere protectorates in the new world?

Actually much of the British Empire was not actually colonies, but de jure semi sovereign protectorates.
They had their own government, their own domestic policies, and but their quasi existence was reliant on surrendering their foreign, trade and military policies to London.

Or the Philippines in the 30s another example.

This shows that might makes right, dog eat dog g of the 1800s to 1945 is back.

Grab your gun, it is going to be a wild and bloody ride.

[Novus America]

Turkey and Azerbaijan will have their day. Enjoy your ill-gotten gains while you can, one day it will all be dust.

victory belongs to science and justice. With this agreement, the Armenian government made the best decision. I wish you happy and conscientious days, stay with peace

No. Victory belongs to money, population and weapons.
This is might makes right. Nothing more.
Science only wins inasmuch as better science allows making more lethal weapons.

What happens to Turkey when it is facing a enemy with more money, population and weapons?
Turkey will lose land.
Dog eat dog is brutal. Sometimes when you live by the sword, you die by it.

This time Turkey was the bigger, meaner and more brutal dog.
But there are bigger, meaner and more brutal dogs than Turkey out there.

[Rio Cana]

More information on all this - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... and-russia

[Salus Maior]

I suppose here's a round for all the Armenians who sacrificed everything in a just war in defense of their people, against ethnic hatred and Turkish supremacism.

[Rio Cana]

Either Armenia or Azerbaijan can ask the Russians to leave after five years.

Photo of those in Artsakh leaving - https://s.hdnux.com/photos/01/15/14/13/ ... 20x920.jpg

Like I said before, chances are the majority if not all of those people will not be going back. The UN, yes now they got involved, job will be to help the refugees, Armenian and Azeri, get back home. The Artsakh refugees who stay in Armenia will most likely not benefit from this because most if not all will not be going back.

Found out nothing was agreed to when it comes to Nagorno Karabakh. Supposely, that will be decided later. Still think after the Russians are asked to leave by Azerbaijan in five years it will be annexed.

[Kargintina the Third]

Protesters in Yerevan have seized the Armenian parliament in protest of the peace deal and Armenian soldiers posted a video online saying they would not stop fighting.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

The Aims of the Turkish Enemies are once again buried in history, long live a fully independent and just Azerbaijan. According to reports, the occupation forces will be withdrawn from Azerbaijani territory until December 1, 2020. Pashinyan fled to Sochi

(Image)

I don't have a high opinion of anyone who gloats over the victory of ethnic cleansing imperialists. Your complete disregard for the lives of innocent Armenians who simply wanted to live on their own ancestral land in peace just to satisfy your disgusting pan-Turkic ego is morally repugnant. Aliyev is a villain and a butcher. You're backing racist, bloodthirsty warmongers.

Completely sickening.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

Protesters in Yerevan have seized the Armenian parliament in protest of the peace deal and Armenian soldiers posted a video online saying they would not stop fighting.

Source?