Armenia-Azerbaijan Conflict: The Great Betrayal

[Punished UMN]

Turkey would never accept it and Armenia would never join so long as Turkey is a part.

Honestly, I'm surprised Turkey is even still IN NATO. What with its constant issues with Greee, another member, and if I'm correct, illegal invasion of Cyprus.

Why wouldn't they be in it?

[Rio Cana]

Did a search on Nagorno Karabakh and it seems in reaction to the ethnic Armenians wanting to separate from Azerbaijan, in 1991 the Azeri legislature eliminated the Nagorno Karabakh autonomous oblast. The territory was then divided between four Azeri provinces. The Armenian towns were renamed with Azeri names. At that point the Armenians declared independence.

So if the Armenians of Azerbaijan lose this war which seems likely, they will have no autonomous oblast (republic) to revert too like before. They would become instant minorities in four different provinces. If only the Russians had made Nagorno Karabakh part of Armenia, even though surrounded by Azerbaijan, back in the 1920's like they had done with Nakhchivan. At least Nakhchivan bordered two other nations and was not surrounded by Armenia. But the Russians did have to artificially create the borders for Nagorno Karabakh to include has many Armenians has possible while leaving out has many Azeri's has possible. It could be that the Armenians were spread out.

[The Restored Danelaw]

Honestly anyone who unironically thought Turkey -not just Erdogan's, Turkey as a country respects the territorial integrity or national sovereignty of any other nation is just naive. Turkey's done nothing but working against the sovereignty of its neighbors, from funding Pan-Turkic and Separatist movements in Azerbaijan and claiming territories of neighbor states like Greece to actively occupying and colonising territories of other states (i.e. Iraq, Syria and Cyprus). They knew they were free to do this the moment the US put nukes in the straits.

I don’t like to think Turkey as a nation is a threat to human good.
But...
I’m starting to think Turkey as a nation is a threat to human good.

Human good? Not really. Their neighbors' good? Very much so. The Turkish State -and its predecessors- have been nothing but a threat to anyone they'd ever share a border with.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Honestly, I'm surprised Turkey is even still IN NATO. What with its constant issues with Greee, another member, and if I'm correct, illegal invasion of Cyprus.

Why wouldn't they be in it?

Cause they're a fascist terror state that threatens the very existence of the NATO nation to their west.

[Punished UMN]

Why wouldn't they be in it?

Cause they're a fascist terror state that threatens the very existence of the NATO nation to their west.

So was Spain.

[Heloin]

Why wouldn't they be in it?

Cause they're a fascist terror state that threatens the very existence of the NATO nation to their west.

Since when has NATO cared about that?

[The Restored Danelaw]

Cause they're a fascist terror state that threatens the very existence of the NATO nation to their west.

So was Spain.

Ok but Spain's aggression was -for the most part- either domestic or against countries not part of NATO.

[Monsone]

Cause they're a fascist terror state that threatens the very existence of the NATO nation to their west.

Since when has NATO cared about that?

NATO cared enough about fascism to not let Spain join NATO under Franco's regime and only allowed Spain to join after free and fair elections were held in 1977 (even then, Spain didn't join NATO until 1982).

Turkey on the other hand is literally backsliding democratically and is also becoming less and less pro-Western. Turkey fundamentally shocked NATO to it's core by buying the S-400 SAM systems from Russia and forfeited its participation in the F-35 in turn. Personally, Turkey needs to stop being viewed as a reliable NATO member state since it clearly doesn't act like one. There are much more reliable allies of the US in the same geographic area that are not part of NATO.

The best way to get Turkey to stop helping Azerbaijan is to cut off Turkey military from NATO. Suspend their membership, embargo the sale of armaments and arms from NATO nations to Turkey. As history has shown time and time again, Turkey gets bullish as a NATO member because they view themselves as immune from repercussions because they are a "vital" member nation. That may have been the case during the Cold War, but Turkey isn't that important anymore in the grand scope of NATO. And if reigning in Turkey is the goal, stripping Turkey temporarily at least of it's most valuable asset (NATO membership) is the best bargaining chip available.

Without NATO membership, Turkey is exposed to Russia's ire, and it would also force Turkey to back down as they cannot be fast and loose with their actions like they are currently. It would force Turkey to consider if aiding Azerbaijan is really worth if it means being booted out of NATO and loosing important allies.

[Rio Cana]

Cause they're a fascist terror state that threatens the very existence of the NATO nation to their west.

So was Spain.

Lets check some historical film to see if its true.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4qvZT_y2g4

Spain was more a right wing dictatorship. Franco just used the right leaning political parties to consolidate his own power.

[Rio Cana]

According to a news source, the Artsakh military managed to crush a major Azeri offensive against the city of Shushi (also called Shusha). Seems the Artsakh military forces have concentrated in that city. The city was attacked from the east. If that city should fall it would open the way for the Capital city to be attacked.

Edit - The Azeri drones were all destroyed. Seems the jamming from inside Arsakh and Armenia is causing the drones problems. They say even the Russians are using there jamming equipment from there base in Armenia. The jamming has a range of a few hundreds of kms.

[Salus Maior]

According to a news source, the Artsakh military managed to crush a major Azeri offensive against the city of Shushi (also called Shusha). Seems the Artsakh military forces have concentrated in that city. The city was attacked from the east. If that city should fall it would open the way for the Capital city to be attacked.

Edit - The Azeri drones were all destroyed. Seems the jamming from inside Arsakh and Armenia is causing the drones problems. They say even the Russians are using there jamming equipment from there base in Armenia. The jamming has a range of a few hundreds of kms.

Excellent news! Hopefully this is truly the case.

Could you provide sources?

[Rio Cana]

According to a news source, the Artsakh military managed to crush a major Azeri offensive against the city of Shushi (also called Shusha). Seems the Artsakh military forces have concentrated in that city. The city was attacked from the east. If that city should fall it would open the way for the Capital city to be attacked.

Edit - The Azeri drones were all destroyed. Seems the jamming from inside Arsakh and Armenia is causing the drones problems. They say even the Russians are using there jamming equipment from there base in Armenia. The jamming has a range of a few hundreds of kms.

Excellent news! Hopefully this is truly the case.

Could you provide sources?

Its in Spanish - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dhn4CxCIK9M4

and this which is on an Azeri attack on a place called Kabashar which was also crushed. It involved a small force of 30 Azeris - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPHOzFgIyIk

[Tekke]

I wonder what Armenia tries to achieve by attacking civilian cities such as Barda a few days ago.
Maybe to provoke Azerbaijan to reciprocate and attack cities in Armenia proper to get Russia involved?

To feed the circle of hate since they can't do much about the drones?
Armenia shot down a few Antonow An-2s claiming these were TB-2 drones.

Anyway I hope for this conflict and illegal armenian occupation to end as soon as possible.

[Salus Maior]

I wonder what Armenia tries to achieve by attacking civilian cities such as Barda a few days ago.
Maybe to provoke Azerbaijan to reciprocate and attack cities in Armenia proper to get Russia involved?

To feed the circle of hate since they can't do much about the drones?
Armenia shot down a few Antonow An-2s claiming these were TB-2 drones.

Anyway I hope for this conflict and illegal armenian occupation to end as soon as possible.

I don't know, what does Azerbaijan hope to achieve by attacking civilian centers?

Which they literally did as the first thing that happened in the war.

[Tekke]

Whataboutism is not a valid argument.
Also we're talking about a conflict on internationally recognized Azerbaijani territory.
Armenian forces should not be there in the first place.

[Albionist Great Britain]

I wonder what Armenia tries to achieve by attacking civilian cities such as Barda a few days ago.
Maybe to provoke Azerbaijan to reciprocate and attack cities in Armenia proper to get Russia involved?

To feed the circle of hate since they can't do much about the drones?
Armenia shot down a few Antonow An-2s claiming these were TB-2 drones.

Anyway I hope for this conflict and illegal armenian occupation to end as soon as possible.

Ah yes, and the genocide of Armenians from Artsakh and the ‘reclamation’ of Azeri lebensraum.

[Heloin]

Whataboutism is not a valid argument.
Also we're talking about a conflict on internationally recognized Azerbaijani territory.
Armenian forces should not be there in the first place.

Your saying that the people who live there shouldn't? Because the people who live there and have for generations are the ones who don't want Azerbaijan.

[Salus Maior]

Whataboutism is not a valid argument.
Also we're talking about a conflict on internationally recognized Azerbaijani territory.
Armenian forces should not be there in the first place.

International Law is wrong, and it's costing lives, as it has before.

Armenians are native to Artsakh, they are the majority population of the region and they don't want to be ruled by Baku. Because Baku has a long case of human rights violations against Armenians, with its long string of pogroms against ethnic Armenians when the Soviet Union fell.

By popular sovereignty, Artsakh wants to be Armenian. The people of Artsakh are Armenian, not Azeri.

[Tekke]

I'm sorry don't want to go into further detail because it appears that the only argument the pro Armenians here have is "genocide/lebensraum".

For anyone actually interested I can recommend this Stephen Sackur (BBC) interview with the Prime Minister of Armenia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-mzKtQbwbM

[Salus Maior]

I'm sorry don't want to go into further detail because it appears that the only argument the pro Armenians here have is "genocide/lebensraum".

For anyone actually interested I can recommend this Stephen Sackur (BBC) interview with the Prime Minister of Armenia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-mzKtQbwbM

I'm not saying that the Armenians are completely clean-handed, but Azerbaijan cannot be trusted ruling over the ethnic Armenians of Artsakh. That is just a no-go.

[Andsed]

Whataboutism is not a valid argument.
Also we're talking about a conflict on internationally recognized Azerbaijani territory.
Armenian forces should not be there in the first place.

International Law is wrong, and it's costing lives, as it has before.

Armenians are native to Artsakh, they are the majority population of the region and they don't want to be ruled by Baku. Because Baku has a long case of human rights violations against Armenians, with its long string of pogroms against ethnic Armenians when the Soviet Union fell.

By popular sovereignty, Artsakh wants to be Armenian. The people of Artsakh are Armenian, not Azeri.

This. Will of the people and popular sovereignty are far more important than whatever geo political reasons(which lets be honest is the real reason Artsakh is recognized as Azerbaijan) the international community is up to.

[Duvniask]

Whataboutism is not a valid argument.
Also we're talking about a conflict on internationally recognized Azerbaijani territory.
Armenian forces should not be there in the first place.

International Law is wrong, and it's costing lives, as it has before.

Armenians are native to Artsakh, they are the majority population of the region and they don't want to be ruled by Baku. Because Baku has a long case of human rights violations against Armenians, with its long string of pogroms against ethnic Armenians when the Soviet Union fell.

By popular sovereignty, Artsakh wants to be Armenian. The people of Artsakh are Armenian, not Azeri.

Let's not forget these goldnuggets from Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev:

"Armenia as a country is of no value. It is actually a colony, an outpost run from abroad, a territory artificially created on ancient Azerbaijani lands."

"Armenia is not even a colony, it is not even worthy of being a servant."

No one in their right mind trusts this guy with rule over Nagorno-Karabakh.

[Kowani]

Khamenei's backing Azerbaijan

[Punished UMN]

Whataboutism is not a valid argument.
Also we're talking about a conflict on internationally recognized Azerbaijani territory.
Armenian forces should not be there in the first place.

Your saying that the people who live there shouldn't? Because the people who live there and have for generations are the ones who don't want Azerbaijan.

Then let's apply that universally to all such situations like this instead of selectively doing so.

[Punished UMN]

International Law is wrong, and it's costing lives, as it has before.

Armenians are native to Artsakh, they are the majority population of the region and they don't want to be ruled by Baku. Because Baku has a long case of human rights violations against Armenians, with its long string of pogroms against ethnic Armenians when the Soviet Union fell.

By popular sovereignty, Artsakh wants to be Armenian. The people of Artsakh are Armenian, not Azeri.

This. Will of the people and popular sovereignty are far more important than whatever geo political reasons(which lets be honest is the real reason Artsakh is recognized as Azerbaijan) the international community is up to.

I seem to remember a lot of people here throwing a fit about Russia doing the exact same thing that Armenia did in Artsakh in both 2014 and 2008.