Armenia-Azerbaijan Conflict: The Great Betrayal

[Salus Maior]

That and Azerbaijan's only claim to the lands is the whims of Stalinist territory markation.

That would be true if Armenia had only occupied Artsakh and not also 14% of Azeri territory that was inhabited by Azeris.

It wouldn’t have been defensible otherwise.

[Novus America]

That would be true if Armenia had only occupied Artsakh and not also 14% of Azeri territory that was inhabited by Azeris.

It wouldn’t have been defensible otherwise.

Although there is some legitimate point here, that controlling the Lachin Corridor and Kalbajar would be necessary to access it, (although there was no reason to expel the Azeris living there, who could have been given full rights) what Armenia did with Aghdam (a city that was never Armenian and to the East) was horrible and not justified.

Armenia did go too far. And thought it could keep the status quo forever, despite not actually preparing a proper military defense to hold it. Despite the worsening economic and demographic disparity.

This was pretty much inevitable, as unfortunate as it was. Arguing you are right means nothing if you lack the ability to defend what you claim to be right, especially when no one else recognizes your claims. The ambiguity was also a mistake, Armenia never tried much to get official bilateral recognition, never even officially claimed the land or recognized it as independent.

It tried to simply wait indefinitely inside the utterly worthless Minsk Group, which although helped it by delaying any changes to the status quo, also hurt it by preventing any official recognition.

And that was that. While I do support the right of the people of Nagorno-Karabakh/Artsakh to self determination, the pre war status quo would not last. And Armenia made same massive strategic blunders over the past 25 years.
As well as failed to have enough children.

Again being right still requires you be able to defend it. Otherwise it is for nothing. Especially in the new multipolar world. The end of history is ended. Now is again a time of great power competition and war.

Grab your gun, it is going to be a wild and bloody ride.

[Wropdeedop]

That would be true if Armenia had only occupied Artsakh and not also 14% of Azeri territory that was inhabited by Azeris.

Congrats on not knowing what the Karabakh is I guess.

So Armenia is entitled to whatever land it wants regardless of who lives there?

[Kowani]

Congrats on not knowing what the Karabakh is I guess.

So Armenia is entitled to whatever land it wants regardless of who lives there?

2 posts, only in this thread
created 2 days ago

whose sockpuppet are you

[Heloin]

Congrats on not knowing what the Karabakh is I guess.

So Armenia is entitled to whatever land it wants regardless of who lives there?

Historically Armenian land, who’s majority population has always been Armenian, and who actively want to be part of Armenia? Yes.

[Novus America]

So Armenia is entitled to whatever land it wants regardless of who lives there?

Historically Armenian land, who’s majority population has always been Armenian, and who actively want to be part of Armenia? Yes.

Yes, but it is fair to point out that should not include Aghdam and some other areas it did control before it lost this war.

[Heloin]

Historically Armenian land, who’s majority population has always been Armenian, and who actively want to be part of Armenia? Yes.

Yes, but it is fair to point out that should not include Aghdam and some other areas it did control before it lost this war.

Aside from Agdam and a few towns the whole of the region still had a Armenian majority pre 1988.

[Novus America]

Yes, but it is fair to point out that should not include Aghdam and some other areas it did control before it lost this war.

Aside from Agdam and a few towns the whole of the region still had a Armenian majority pre 1988.

Much of it did, but the destruction and depopulation of Azeri areas like Aghdam (and turning the mosque there into a barn) were rightfully going to make Azerbaijan angry and vengeful. And those areas should go to Azerbaijan.

Obviously that does not justify what Azerbaijan has done in terms of destruction of civilian areas or they fact that it is now taking some previous Armenian areas.
However if you give a stronger, more powerful county with a bigger economy and better birthrates and excuse to attack, you are going to have a problem. Especially in the new post American World.

You cannot rely on 90s end of history to save you anymore.

It would have been nice that this be solved in a better way, in which both sides interests and legitimate concerns were taken into account. And a fair compromise achieved.
Obviously that did not happen. Now we are back to “might makes right”.

So all we can do is arm ourselves to the teeth, improve of birth rates, build our economies around war potential, and fight for what we have.

[Punished UMN]

Yes, but it is fair to point out that should not include Aghdam and some other areas it did control before it lost this war.

Aside from Agdam and a few towns the whole of the region still had a Armenian majority pre 1988.

So how does that justify expelling 351,000 Azeris from its territory and conducting massacres during the Karabakh war?

[Punished UMN]

That would be true if Armenia had only occupied Artsakh and not also 14% of Azeri territory that was inhabited by Azeris.

It wouldn’t have been defensible otherwise.

So the Armenian desire for its national self-interest overrides the right of Azeris to live somewhere?

[Salus Maior]

It wouldn’t have been defensible otherwise.

So the Armenian desire for its national self-interest overrides the right of Azeris to live somewhere?

The Armenian necessity for the defense of Artsakh from Azerbaijan meant that they needed defensible borders.

Which wouldn’t have been an issue in the first place if Azerbaijan allowed Artsakh to self determine instead of giving that a resounding no and started pogroms against Armenians in Azerbaijan.

[Shofercia]

I can't understand how more people aren't on Armenia's side here. Armenians have lived there for thousands of years. Some of their territory was given to Azerbaijan by Stalin out of nothing more than a divide and conquer strategy. The Armenians there can't get de jure independence or be officially annexed by Armenia and the Azeris want to do ethnic cleansing because a piece of paper from a defunct union says the land is theirs.

The Artsakh situation is literally identical to the Crimea situation, the only difference being the Russians didn't ethnically cleanse the area nor were they driven out by Ukraine. The Armenians did and were by Azerbaijan.

We condemn Russia for the same reason people condemn Armenia: invasion of a sovereign neighbor for territory. In Armenia's case it's worsened by the fact that they ethnically cleansed the region when they took it. Suddenly people have lost their sympathy now that it's them getting ethnically cleansed because, y'know, genocide is apparently okay when it's done against genociders I guess.

If Ukraine pushes the Russians out of Crimea in 2044 I don't expect anyone to sympathize with Moscow, ethnic cleansing or not. The same is true here. It doesn't matter if the Armenians are now the victims. For some, the fact they were once the victimizers matters more. Especially pan-Turkic ultranationalists like Hakinda who I doubt would even budge from his view even if Azeri tanks were running over Armenian children and uploading videos of it to YouTube.

For him, the Armenians did it first so it's okay if the Azeris do it back. "Eye for an eye" mentality.

Not really. In Crimea there's multi-ethnic support for Russian Unity. The only group that wasn't radically pro-Russia was the Crimean Tatars, and that's only because of a single man's, Stalin's, ethnic removal of the Crimean Tatars from Crimea. In 2006 the ethnic based Crimean Tatar party got less than 62,500 votes, and in 2010 they got less than 51,500. That's right, as the amount of Crimean Tatars increased in Crimea, the amount of votes received by the ethnic party, actually decreased. There are over 250,000 Crimean Tatars in Crimea.

The Caucasus region had one ethnic cleansing after another. Since the Romanovs reclaimed Crimea, it was brutalized once, by Stalin, but, as my fellow NSGers noted:

To be fair, Stalin brutalized pretty much every single ethnic minority in the USSR, including his own.

A true champion of equality.

So if the Russians, or the Ukrainians, or the Crimean Tatars started to get ethnically cleansed in Crimea, the other Crimeans would oppose it. Crimea's been a multi-ethnic region, and that's why its demographic outcomes don't adhere to Caucasian Rules.

[Novus America]

So the Armenian desire for its national self-interest overrides the right of Azeris to live somewhere?

The Armenian necessity for the defense of Artsakh from Azerbaijan meant that they needed defensible borders.

Which wouldn’t have been an issue in the first place if Azerbaijan allowed Artsakh to self determine instead of giving that a resounding no and started pogroms against Armenians in Azerbaijan.

The issue is obviously you can see how that argument can be pushed too far.
The PRC will argue Taiwan is a necessity for its defense, and so on.
A lot of places could use that to grab a lot of land.

But I do agree Azerbaijan by attempting to dissolve Nagorno Karabakh did start the fight, and should have be willing to negotiate, still Armenia did some bad and in the case of Aghdam just spiteful and cruel things.
For which Azerbaijan had a legitimate argument was wrong.

Armenia did do some things to make the situation worse.
Although I support self determination for Nagorno Karabakh and it having access to Armenia, still Armenia had gone beyond that.

[Wropdeedop]

So Armenia is entitled to whatever land it wants regardless of who lives there?

2 posts, only in this thread
created 2 days ago

whose sockpuppet are you

I am the latest sockpuppet of New Werpland.

---

https://mirrorspectator.com/2018/12/20/lukashenko-putin-had-urged-sargsyan-to-cede-territory-to-azerbaijan/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CThey%20were%20building%20a%20pipeline.%20I%20think%20it,speak%20to%20Serzh%20Sargsyan%20and%20convey%20the%20message.

According to Lukashenko, Aliyev wanted to build a pipeline through Armenia which instead goes through Georgia now.

[Punished UMN]

So the Armenian desire for its national self-interest overrides the right of Azeris to live somewhere?

The Armenian necessity for the defense of Artsakh from Azerbaijan meant that they needed defensible borders.

Which wouldn’t have been an issue in the first place if Azerbaijan allowed Artsakh to self determine instead of giving that a resounding no and started pogroms against Armenians in Azerbaijan.

Cool. I don't see how needing to defend territory that isn't legally yours gives you any legal right to occupy land that isn't yours and expel its residents.

[Salus Maior]

The Armenian necessity for the defense of Artsakh from Azerbaijan meant that they needed defensible borders.

Which wouldn’t have been an issue in the first place if Azerbaijan allowed Artsakh to self determine instead of giving that a resounding no and started pogroms against Armenians in Azerbaijan.

The issue is obviously you can see how that argument can be pushed too far.
The PRC will argue Taiwan is a necessity for its defense, and so on.
A lot of places could use that to grab a lot of land.

But I do agree Azerbaijan by attempting to dissolve Nagorno Karabakh did start the fight, and should have be willing to negotiate, still Armenia did some bad and in the case of Aghdam just spiteful and cruel things.
For which Azerbaijan had a legitimate argument was wrong.

Armenia did do some things to make the situation worse.
Although I support self determination for Nagorno Karabakh and it having access to Armenia, still Armenia had gone beyond that.

If Armenia did anything less than it did to secure Artsakh, Azerbaijan would have just been able to starve it out. Which they’ll probably try to do at some point later now that things have changed.

[Punished UMN]

The issue is obviously you can see how that argument can be pushed too far.
The PRC will argue Taiwan is a necessity for its defense, and so on.
A lot of places could use that to grab a lot of land.

But I do agree Azerbaijan by attempting to dissolve Nagorno Karabakh did start the fight, and should have be willing to negotiate, still Armenia did some bad and in the case of Aghdam just spiteful and cruel things.
For which Azerbaijan had a legitimate argument was wrong.

Armenia did do some things to make the situation worse.
Although I support self determination for Nagorno Karabakh and it having access to Armenia, still Armenia had gone beyond that.

If Armenia did anything less than it did to secure Artsakh, Azerbaijan would have just been able to starve it out. Which they’ll probably try to do at some point later now that things have changed.

Why was this necessary then: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khojaly_massacre

[Salus Maior]

The Armenian necessity for the defense of Artsakh from Azerbaijan meant that they needed defensible borders.

Which wouldn’t have been an issue in the first place if Azerbaijan allowed Artsakh to self determine instead of giving that a resounding no and started pogroms against Armenians in Azerbaijan.

Cool. I don't see how needing to defend territory that isn't legally yours gives you any legal right to occupy land that isn't yours and expel its residents.

The law in this case not giving any shit to what the native people actually want.

We both know that international law is bullshit, UMN. Unless you’ve suddenly become a total shill for that.

[Salus Maior]

If Armenia did anything less than it did to secure Artsakh, Azerbaijan would have just been able to starve it out. Which they’ll probably try to do at some point later now that things have changed.

Why was this necessary then: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khojaly_massacre

I didn’t say it was.

[Punished UMN]

Cool. I don't see how needing to defend territory that isn't legally yours gives you any legal right to occupy land that isn't yours and expel its residents.

The law in this case not giving any shit to what the native people actually want.

We both know that international law is bullshit, UMN. Unless you’ve suddenly become a total shill for that.

There were more Azeris living in the territory illegally occupied by Artsakh than Armenians in Artsakh. Why does ethnic cleansing only matter when it's the Azeris doing it?

[Secularist Eura]

There was no ethnic cleansing of armenians by the turks. both sides slaughtered one another. armenia is bringing up this topic over and over again due to modern-day political issues.

[Punished UMN]

There was no ethnic cleansing of armenians by the turks. both sides slaughtered one another. armenia is bringing up this topic over and over again due to modern-day political issues.

There was ethnic cleansing by both sides in the karabakh war.

[Salus Maior]

The law in this case not giving any shit to what the native people actually want.

We both know that international law is bullshit, UMN. Unless you’ve suddenly become a total shill for that.

There were more Azeris living in the territory illegally occupied by Artsakh than Armenians in Artsakh. Why does ethnic cleansing only matter when it's the Azeris doing it?

I’ve also never said that either.

[Punished UMN]

There were more Azeris living in the territory illegally occupied by Artsakh than Armenians in Artsakh. Why does ethnic cleansing only matter when it's the Azeris doing it?

I’ve also never said that either.

Yet you describe it as a strategic necessity.

[Novus America]

The issue is obviously you can see how that argument can be pushed too far.
The PRC will argue Taiwan is a necessity for its defense, and so on.
A lot of places could use that to grab a lot of land.

But I do agree Azerbaijan by attempting to dissolve Nagorno Karabakh did start the fight, and should have be willing to negotiate, still Armenia did some bad and in the case of Aghdam just spiteful and cruel things.
For which Azerbaijan had a legitimate argument was wrong.

Armenia did do some things to make the situation worse.
Although I support self determination for Nagorno Karabakh and it having access to Armenia, still Armenia had gone beyond that.

If Armenia did anything less than it did to secure Artsakh, Azerbaijan would have just been able to starve it out. Which they’ll probably try to do at some point later now that things have changed.

Armenia failed to secure Artsakh anyways. Because simply taking more land did not overcome its other failures.
And actually left it over extended.
Better weapons and tactics, better economic improvements, and better demographics would have done a lot more than destroying a few Azerbaijani cities.

And not with Aghdam, Aghdam was not between Nagorno Karabakh and Armenia. That was just spiteful.

Sure I agree securing the Lachin Corridor and Kalbajar made sense, (although the Azeris driven out should have been allowed to return with full rights) but Armenia did go further than just that.