Armenia-Azerbaijan Conflict: The Great Betrayal

[SD_Film Artists]

Depending on some potential referendums and polls the UK claims over places like Scotland and Northern Ireland may not be legitimate. With Nagorno-Karabakh the majority in the region dont want to be part of Azerbaijan and so their claim is not legitimate. The same would apply to Scotland and Norther Ireland if the majority in those regions voted that way.

Do you believe that referenda or demographics are what makes a country legitimate? How far are you willing to take this principle? Should a (hypothetically) majority Somali neighborhood of Stockholm be able to unilaterally secede to from an independent Somali republic, for instance?

I think the important factor is that the Armenians have always been there rather than just getting off the bus and claiming self-identification. As for Britain, it wouldn't make sense for Scotland to keep becoming independent then in the union again then independent again each time the winds change. You could make the case that the referenda should have a 75% majority for such a drastic (and IMO horrific) constitutional change.

[The New California Republic]

This conflict needs to stay fucking stopped, so that this sort of thing doesn't happen again (video in link):

Nagorno-Karabakh: The three-year-old orphaned by war


Three-year-old Hadija is now an orphan. Her mum, dad and older sister were killed in a missile strike by Armenian forces on their house.

Armenia and Azerbaijain are fighting a war for control of the disputed region of Nagorno-Karabakh.

But civilians on both sides are also caught up in the conflict.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-54650502

[Andsed]

Depending on some potential referendums and polls the UK claims over places like Scotland and Northern Ireland may not be legitimate. With Nagorno-Karabakh the majority in the region dont want to be part of Azerbaijan and so their claim is not legitimate. The same would apply to Scotland and Norther Ireland if the majority in those regions voted that way.

Do you believe that referenda or demographics are what makes a country legitimate? How far are you willing to take this principle? Should a (hypothetically) majority Somali neighborhood of Stockholm be able to unilaterally secede to from an independent Somali republic, for instance?

Yes. Will of the people is what makes countries legitimate. If a people do not wish to be ruled over by a nation then that nation has no business trying to force its rule over them. So coming back to Nagorno-Karabakh, the majority in the region don't want to be ruled by the Azeri. Therefore their claim is illegitimate in my eyes and they need to back off.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

I’ve given up trying to explain; people just use "fascist" to refer to everything they don’t like, both the left and the right. If you read out actual fascist beliefs without mentioning the name of the ideology, 9/10 Americans would say that sounds like "far left socializm"

It's more about whether a regime hits the same or similar beats as the historical Fascists rather than if they're ideologically pure Fascists.

That being said, iirc Mussolini did point to Ataturk's Turkey as an example of certain fascist concepts being successful.

Those who do not like Atatürk in the world are generally people with low education levels (Survey Studies). For example, political Islamists and people with Turkishphobia. We are no longer in the 20th century, we do not accept the imperial order as a nation. Armenian government supporters should be aware of this.

Do you believe that referenda or demographics are what makes a country legitimate? How far are you willing to take this principle? Should a (hypothetically) majority Somali neighborhood of Stockholm be able to unilaterally secede to from an independent Somali republic, for instance?

Yes. Will of the people is what makes countries legitimate. If a people do not wish to be ruled over by a nation then that nation has no business trying to force its rule over them. So coming back to Nagorno-Karabakh, the majority in the region don't want to be ruled by the Azeri. Therefore their claim is illegitimate in my eyes and they need to back off.

This is entirely your assumption, because the so-called referendum of the Armenian government did not include all people. that is why the so-called referendum they have made has no effect.

@Andsed My worries
1-Forcibly seizing Azerbaycan lands through religious ethnic nationalism by the government of Armenia
2-All the people did not participate in the elections
3-The voting rates are questionable

[Baltenstein]

It's more about whether a regime hits the same or similar beats as the historical Fascists rather than if they're ideologically pure Fascists.

That being said, iirc Mussolini did point to Ataturk's Turkey as an example of certain fascist concepts being successful.

Those who do not like Atatürk in the world are generally people with low education levels (Survey Studies).

Source:

The Turkish minister of Turkishness, Öztürk Türkuglu.

[Albionist Great Britain]

The only good Ottoman Empire is one stricken down, torn apart and its grave unmarked. We should’ve done more to put that old bitch and its offspring down when we had the chance.

Albionist, wrong right every idea is worth discussing but I think it should be done according to 21st century social democratic values. you're talking like government supporters in Turkey. this makes me sad

False. Some ideas aren’t worth discussing at all. Of course, I doubt you’d want anything that goes against Turkic supremacist goals to be discussed.

Considering how he’s fully complacent, and how supportive of the Azeri ultranationalists he is, I don’t think he’s merely ‘falling’ for it.

Turkey is claiming that everyone else (Greece, the Kurds, Armenia, Syria) is the bad guy, but in fact they're the ones aggressive, as are their allies.

They’re shifting the blame and playing the victim.

The only good Ottoman Empire is one stricken down, torn apart and its grave unmarked. We should’ve done more to put that old bitch and its offspring down when we had the chance.

Ottoman History didn't begin in 1915. The Ottoman's Empire's record as a whole is little worse than that of the British Empire.

And?

@Andsed My worries
1-Forcibly seizing Azerbaycan lands through religious ethnic nationalism by the government of Armenia
2-All the people did not participate in the elections
3-The voting rates are questionable

The Azeris boycotted the referendum. That doesn’t make it any less legitimate, not like Baku had any legitimacy in the first place.

[Andsed]

It's more about whether a regime hits the same or similar beats as the historical Fascists rather than if they're ideologically pure Fascists.

That being said, iirc Mussolini did point to Ataturk's Turkey as an example of certain fascist concepts being successful.

Those who do not like Atatürk in the world are generally people with low education levels (Survey Studies). For example, political Islamists and people with Turkishphobia. We are no longer in the 20th century, we do not accept the imperial order as a nation. Armenian government supporters should be aware of this.

Yes. Will of the people is what makes countries legitimate. If a people do not wish to be ruled over by a nation then that nation has no business trying to force its rule over them. So coming back to Nagorno-Karabakh, the majority in the region don't want to be ruled by the Azeri. Therefore their claim is illegitimate in my eyes and they need to back off.

This is entirely your assumption, because the so-called referendum of the Armenian government did not include all people. that is why the so-called referendum they have made has no effect.

@Andsed My worries
1-Forcibly seizing Azerbaycan lands through religious ethnic nationalism by the government of Armenia
2-All the people did not participate in the elections
3-The voting rates are questionable

No its not an assumption. It is a simple fact that Armenians are the majority in the region and they don't want to be part of Azerbaijan. If you took another referendum it would go against Azerbaijan. The Azeri claim to the region is flimsy at best.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

Those who do not like Atatürk in the world are generally people with low education levels (Survey Studies).

Source:

The Turkish minister of Turkishness, Öztürk Türkuglu.

According to the work of the Republican People's Party and independent research companies.

[Insaanistan]

This conflict needs to stay fucking stopped, so that this sort of thing doesn't happen again (video in link):

Nagorno-Karabakh: The three-year-old orphaned by war


Three-year-old Hadija is now an orphan. Her mum, dad and older sister were killed in a missile strike by Armenian forces on their house.

Armenia and Azerbaijain are fighting a war for control of the disputed region of Nagorno-Karabakh.

But civilians on both sides are also caught up in the conflict.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-54650502

For a second, I thought her name was “Hadjiya/Hajiya”, and I got VERY confused. Then I realized it was “Hadija”, aka “Khadijah”.

[Salus Maior]

Those who do not like Atatürk in the world are generally people with low education levels (Survey Studies).

I’m going to give you the benefit of a doubt and say that’s probably true...In the Turkish context. I imagine that it’s a similar situation to Fundamentalism in the U.S, where adherents to that belief system have a correlation with being on the lower educational/intellectual side.

I imagine Turkish opponents to Ataturk mostly hate him because he was a secularist, and want a more harshly religious conservative and reactionary society like America’s Fundamentalists.

That being said, I’m not in the Turkish cultural context and Ataturk’s secularism isn’t really a problem for me, it’s his nationalism. And considering I’m a college student with generally decent marks, the ‘low education’ slight doesn’t really hit the mark with me.

[Travislavania]

most of Scotland does want independence, next referendum will be interesting

[Saiwania]

Armenians already see the conflict as existential; Nagorno-Karabakh's Armenians aren't leaving w/o a fight.

I'm saying the situation on the ground as it is currently, is that Armenia has lost (unless I'm mistaken). Hence, it is time for Armenia to seek an armistice with Azerbaijan granting them the victory. Nagorno-Karabakh in exchange for all of its previous population moving to Armenia is a fair trade that Azerbaijan will likely agree to.

I really doubt its even an option for Armenia to take the North Vietnam route where they can send a near infinite number of soldiers to try to win against Azerbaijan via attrition in a guerilla war followed by a conventional campaign, when Armenia has no major allies to send them weaponry or provide any safe havens beyond Azerbaijan's reach.

[The New California Republic]

most of Scotland does want independence, next referendum will be interesting

Not the subject of the thread. Not even close.

[Transjlwanja]

Armenians already see the conflict as existential; Nagorno-Karabakh's Armenians aren't leaving w/o a fight.

I'm saying the situation on the ground as it is currently, is that Armenia has lost (unless I'm mistaken). Hence, it is time for Armenia to seek an armistice with Azerbaijan granting them the victory. Nagorno-Karabakh in exchange for all of its previous population moving to Armenia is a fair trade that Azerbaijan will likely agree to.

I really doubt its even an option for Armenia to take the North Vietnam route where they can send a near infinite number of soldiers to try to win against Azerbaijan via attrition in a guerilla war followed by a conventional campaign, when Armenia has no major allies to send them weaponry or provide any safe havens beyond Azerbaijan's reach.

Iran is still a solid ally to Armenia AFAIK, & Russia's likely to continue selling weapons to both the Armo & Azeri sides.

[Aureumterra III]

Those who do not like Atatürk in the world are generally people with low education levels (Survey Studies).

Source:

The Turkish minister of Turkishness, Öztürk Türkuglu.

How Turkish!

[Insaanistan]

Source:

The Turkish minister of Turkishness, Öztürk Türkuglu.

How Turkish!

Türkiye stronk! Kebab?

[Heloin]

Armenians already see the conflict as existential; Nagorno-Karabakh's Armenians aren't leaving w/o a fight.

I'm saying the situation on the ground as it is currently, is that Armenia has lost (unless I'm mistaken). Hence, it is time for Armenia to seek an armistice with Azerbaijan granting them the victory. Nagorno-Karabakh in exchange for all of its previous population moving to Armenia is a fair trade that Azerbaijan will likely agree to.

I really doubt its even an option for Armenia to take the North Vietnam route where they can send a near infinite number of soldiers to try to win against Azerbaijan via attrition in a guerilla war followed by a conventional campaign, when Armenia has no major allies to send them weaponry or provide any safe havens beyond Azerbaijan's reach.

Every single post you make on the conflict singles that you have no idea what is happening or the what the last 30 years of conflict has been. Armenia is the disadvantaged party, they always have been, yet for the last 30 years they've won. Any sign of a clear cut victory is pure misunderstanding of the situation at best, and the proposal to remove the people from the Karabakh isn't an option the people living there would accept. There are peaceful options that both sides could easily come to even if your to blind to a lust for war to see(or more accurately want) them.

[Saiwania]

Every single post you make on the conflict singles that you have no idea what is happening or the what the last 30 years of conflict has been. Armenia is the disadvantaged party, they always have been, yet for the last 30 years they've won. Any sign of a clear cut victory is pure misunderstanding of the situation at best, and the proposal to remove the people from the Karabakh isn't an option the people living there would accept. There are peaceful options that both sides could easily come to even if your to blind to a lust for war to see(or more accurately want) them.

The war has started, it is too late for peace. The entire purpose of it so far as I can tell, is to decide the fate of Nagorno-Karabakh. My point is that the residents of that province will have no choice but to leave if Azerbaijan is successful in annexing it by force. They identify more with Armenia, so it is more logical for them to leave for what will still be Armenian territory after the conflict is over.

Staying is sheer madness, it is like those Germans that stayed in Berlin on purpose in 1945. Those in Germany who were smart or capable enough, went west ahead of time to avoid the Red Army's jurisdiction. Generally speaking, those in the western half of Germany had a better fate or future prospects.

[Heloin]

Every single post you make on the conflict singles that you have no idea what is happening or the what the last 30 years of conflict has been. Armenia is the disadvantaged party, they always have been, yet for the last 30 years they've won. Any sign of a clear cut victory is pure misunderstanding of the situation at best, and the proposal to remove the people from the Karabakh isn't an option the people living there would accept. There are peaceful options that both sides could easily come to even if your to blind to a lust for war to see(or more accurately want) them.

The war has started, it is too late for peace. The entire purpose of it so far as I can tell, is to decide the fate of Nagorno-Karabakh. My point is that the residents of that province will have no choice but to leave if Azerbaijan is successful in annexing it by force. They identify more with Armenia, so it is more logical for them to leave for what will still be Armenian territory after the conflict is over.

Staying is sheer madness, it is like those Germans that stayed in Berlin on purpose in 1945. Those in Germany who were smart or capable enough, went west ahead of time to avoid the Red Army's jurisdiction. Generally speaking, those in the western half of Germany had a better fate or future prospects.

Your point is that you have no idea what is or has been going on in the region, all this after making it clear you hate the idea of peace because you want a total war in the Caucasus. Any point you make can and should be dismissed at this point.

[The New California Republic]

The war has started, it is too late for peace.

Sorry but that is total shit, it's never too late for peace.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

The war has started, it is too late for peace.

Sorry but that is total shit, it's never too late for peace.

It's never too late for peace, people are dying, some people talk about war I find it so wrong.

[Insaanistan]

Sorry but that is total shit, it's never too late for peace.

It's never too late for peace, people are dying, some people talk about war I find it so wrong.

We must do everything we can for peace.
“Whoever takes an innocent life, it is as if they have killed all of mankind. And whoever saves an innocent life, it is as if they have saved all of mankind.”
-the Holy Qur’ân

[Heloin]

Sorry but that is total shit, it's never too late for peace.

It's never too late for peace, people are dying, some people talk about war I find it so wrong.

Your on the same page as Sai when it comes to calling for violence.

[Saiwania]

This conflict needs to stay fucking stopped, so that this sort of thing doesn't happen again...

I'm not persuaded by what I'd call "boo hoo" stories. Perhaps civilians that're near the point of conflict should choose a side to fight on or assist, or make arrangements to leave for areas that're currently away from the front lines. War is war. I don't see it as a flaw that people happen to suffer some from a conflict.

What is more important is which side is winning and what battlefield manuvers are being done by both sides. Whoever advances further will win this.

[Insaanistan]

This conflict needs to stay fucking stopped, so that this sort of thing doesn't happen again...

I'm not persuaded by what I'd call "boo hoo" stories. Perhaps civilians that're near the point of conflict should choose a side to fight on or assist, or make arrangements to leave for areas that're currently away from the front lines. War is war. I don't see it as a flaw that people happen to suffer some from a conflict.

What is more important is which side is winning and what battlefield manuvers are being done by both sides. Whoever advances further will win this.

...
WHAT
THE
F-