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Armenia-Azerbaijan Conflict: The Great Betrayal

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SD_Film Artists
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Postby SD_Film Artists » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:17 am

Transjlwanja wrote:
Andsed wrote:Depending on some potential referendums and polls the UK claims over places like Scotland and Northern Ireland may not be legitimate. With Nagorno-Karabakh the majority in the region dont want to be part of Azerbaijan and so their claim is not legitimate. The same would apply to Scotland and Norther Ireland if the majority in those regions voted that way.


Do you believe that referenda or demographics are what makes a country legitimate? How far are you willing to take this principle? Should a (hypothetically) majority Somali neighborhood of Stockholm be able to unilaterally secede to from an independent Somali republic, for instance?



I think the important factor is that the Armenians have always been there rather than just getting off the bus and claiming self-identification. As for Britain, it wouldn't make sense for Scotland to keep becoming independent then in the union again then independent again each time the winds change. You could make the case that the referenda should have a 75% majority for such a drastic (and IMO horrific) constitutional change.
Last edited by SD_Film Artists on Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby The New California Republic » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:19 am

This conflict needs to stay fucking stopped, so that this sort of thing doesn't happen again (video in link):

Nagorno-Karabakh: The three-year-old orphaned by war


Three-year-old Hadija is now an orphan. Her mum, dad and older sister were killed in a missile strike by Armenian forces on their house.

Armenia and Azerbaijain are fighting a war for control of the disputed region of Nagorno-Karabakh.

But civilians on both sides are also caught up in the conflict.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-54650502
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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Postby Andsed » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:22 am

Transjlwanja wrote:
Andsed wrote:Depending on some potential referendums and polls the UK claims over places like Scotland and Northern Ireland may not be legitimate. With Nagorno-Karabakh the majority in the region dont want to be part of Azerbaijan and so their claim is not legitimate. The same would apply to Scotland and Norther Ireland if the majority in those regions voted that way.


Do you believe that referenda or demographics are what makes a country legitimate? How far are you willing to take this principle? Should a (hypothetically) majority Somali neighborhood of Stockholm be able to unilaterally secede to from an independent Somali republic, for instance?

Yes. Will of the people is what makes countries legitimate. If a people do not wish to be ruled over by a nation then that nation has no business trying to force its rule over them. So coming back to Nagorno-Karabakh, the majority in the region don't want to be ruled by the Azeri. Therefore their claim is illegitimate in my eyes and they need to back off.
Last edited by Andsed on Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:36 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:I’ve given up trying to explain; people just use "fascist" to refer to everything they don’t like, both the left and the right. If you read out actual fascist beliefs without mentioning the name of the ideology, 9/10 Americans would say that sounds like "far left socializm"


It's more about whether a regime hits the same or similar beats as the historical Fascists rather than if they're ideologically pure Fascists.

That being said, iirc Mussolini did point to Ataturk's Turkey as an example of certain fascist concepts being successful.
Those who do not like Atatürk in the world are generally people with low education levels (Survey Studies). For example, political Islamists and people with Turkishphobia. We are no longer in the 20th century, we do not accept the imperial order as a nation. Armenian government supporters should be aware of this.

Andsed wrote:
Transjlwanja wrote:
Do you believe that referenda or demographics are what makes a country legitimate? How far are you willing to take this principle? Should a (hypothetically) majority Somali neighborhood of Stockholm be able to unilaterally secede to from an independent Somali republic, for instance?

Yes. Will of the people is what makes countries legitimate. If a people do not wish to be ruled over by a nation then that nation has no business trying to force its rule over them. So coming back to Nagorno-Karabakh, the majority in the region don't want to be ruled by the Azeri. Therefore their claim is illegitimate in my eyes and they need to back off.
This is entirely your assumption, because the so-called referendum of the Armenian government did not include all people. that is why the so-called referendum they have made has no effect.

@Andsed My worries
1-Forcibly seizing Azerbaycan lands through religious ethnic nationalism by the government of Armenia
2-All the people did not participate in the elections
3-The voting rates are questionable
Last edited by Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum on Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:51 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Baltenstein » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:53 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
It's more about whether a regime hits the same or similar beats as the historical Fascists rather than if they're ideologically pure Fascists.

That being said, iirc Mussolini did point to Ataturk's Turkey as an example of certain fascist concepts being successful.
Those who do not like Atatürk in the world are generally people with low education levels (Survey Studies).


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Albionist Great Britain
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Postby Albionist Great Britain » Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:05 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
Albionist Great Britain wrote:
The only good Ottoman Empire is one stricken down, torn apart and its grave unmarked. We should’ve done more to put that old bitch and its offspring down when we had the chance.
Albionist, wrong right every idea is worth discussing but I think it should be done according to 21st century social democratic values. you're talking like government supporters in Turkey. this makes me sad


False. Some ideas aren’t worth discussing at all. Of course, I doubt you’d want anything that goes against Turkic supremacist goals to be discussed.

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Albionist Great Britain wrote:
Considering how he’s fully complacent, and how supportive of the Azeri ultranationalists he is, I don’t think he’s merely ‘falling’ for it.


Turkey is claiming that everyone else (Greece, the Kurds, Armenia, Syria) is the bad guy, but in fact they're the ones aggressive, as are their allies.


They’re shifting the blame and playing the victim.

Transjlwanja wrote:
Albionist Great Britain wrote:The only good Ottoman Empire is one stricken down, torn apart and its grave unmarked. We should’ve done more to put that old bitch and its offspring down when we had the chance.


Ottoman History didn't begin in 1915. The Ottoman's Empire's record as a whole is little worse than that of the British Empire.


And?

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:@Andsed My worries
1-Forcibly seizing Azerbaycan lands through religious ethnic nationalism by the government of Armenia
2-All the people did not participate in the elections
3-The voting rates are questionable


The Azeris boycotted the referendum. That doesn’t make it any less legitimate, not like Baku had any legitimacy in the first place.

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Postby Andsed » Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:18 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
It's more about whether a regime hits the same or similar beats as the historical Fascists rather than if they're ideologically pure Fascists.

That being said, iirc Mussolini did point to Ataturk's Turkey as an example of certain fascist concepts being successful.
Those who do not like Atatürk in the world are generally people with low education levels (Survey Studies). For example, political Islamists and people with Turkishphobia. We are no longer in the 20th century, we do not accept the imperial order as a nation. Armenian government supporters should be aware of this.

Andsed wrote:Yes. Will of the people is what makes countries legitimate. If a people do not wish to be ruled over by a nation then that nation has no business trying to force its rule over them. So coming back to Nagorno-Karabakh, the majority in the region don't want to be ruled by the Azeri. Therefore their claim is illegitimate in my eyes and they need to back off.
This is entirely your assumption, because the so-called referendum of the Armenian government did not include all people. that is why the so-called referendum they have made has no effect.

@Andsed My worries
1-Forcibly seizing Azerbaycan lands through religious ethnic nationalism by the government of Armenia
2-All the people did not participate in the elections
3-The voting rates are questionable

No its not an assumption. It is a simple fact that Armenians are the majority in the region and they don't want to be part of Azerbaijan. If you took another referendum it would go against Azerbaijan. The Azeri claim to the region is flimsy at best.
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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:27 am

Baltenstein wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Those who do not like Atatürk in the world are generally people with low education levels (Survey Studies).


Source:

The Turkish minister of Turkishness, Öztürk Türkuglu.
According to the work of the Republican People's Party and independent research companies.
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Postby Insaanistan » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:02 am

The New California Republic wrote:This conflict needs to stay fucking stopped, so that this sort of thing doesn't happen again (video in link):

Nagorno-Karabakh: The three-year-old orphaned by war


Three-year-old Hadija is now an orphan. Her mum, dad and older sister were killed in a missile strike by Armenian forces on their house.

Armenia and Azerbaijain are fighting a war for control of the disputed region of Nagorno-Karabakh.

But civilians on both sides are also caught up in the conflict.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-54650502


For a second, I thought her name was “Hadjiya/Hajiya”, and I got VERY confused. Then I realized it was “Hadija”, aka “Khadijah”.
Last edited by Insaanistan on Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Salus Maior » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:34 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Those who do not like Atatürk in the world are generally people with low education levels (Survey Studies).


I’m going to give you the benefit of a doubt and say that’s probably true...In the Turkish context. I imagine that it’s a similar situation to Fundamentalism in the U.S, where adherents to that belief system have a correlation with being on the lower educational/intellectual side.

I imagine Turkish opponents to Ataturk mostly hate him because he was a secularist, and want a more harshly religious conservative and reactionary society like America’s Fundamentalists.

That being said, I’m not in the Turkish cultural context and Ataturk’s secularism isn’t really a problem for me, it’s his nationalism. And considering I’m a college student with generally decent marks, the ‘low education’ slight doesn’t really hit the mark with me.
Last edited by Salus Maior on Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Travislavania » Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:44 pm

most of Scotland does want independence, next referendum will be interesting
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Postby Saiwania » Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:34 pm

Transjlwanja wrote:Armenians already see the conflict as existential; Nagorno-Karabakh's Armenians aren't leaving w/o a fight.


I'm saying the situation on the ground as it is currently, is that Armenia has lost (unless I'm mistaken). Hence, it is time for Armenia to seek an armistice with Azerbaijan granting them the victory. Nagorno-Karabakh in exchange for all of its previous population moving to Armenia is a fair trade that Azerbaijan will likely agree to.

I really doubt its even an option for Armenia to take the North Vietnam route where they can send a near infinite number of soldiers to try to win against Azerbaijan via attrition in a guerilla war followed by a conventional campaign, when Armenia has no major allies to send them weaponry or provide any safe havens beyond Azerbaijan's reach.

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Postby The New California Republic » Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:40 pm

Travislavania wrote:most of Scotland does want independence, next referendum will be interesting

Not the subject of the thread. Not even close.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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Postby Transjlwanja » Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:48 pm

Saiwania wrote:
Transjlwanja wrote:Armenians already see the conflict as existential; Nagorno-Karabakh's Armenians aren't leaving w/o a fight.


I'm saying the situation on the ground as it is currently, is that Armenia has lost (unless I'm mistaken). Hence, it is time for Armenia to seek an armistice with Azerbaijan granting them the victory. Nagorno-Karabakh in exchange for all of its previous population moving to Armenia is a fair trade that Azerbaijan will likely agree to.

I really doubt its even an option for Armenia to take the North Vietnam route where they can send a near infinite number of soldiers to try to win against Azerbaijan via attrition in a guerilla war followed by a conventional campaign, when Armenia has no major allies to send them weaponry or provide any safe havens beyond Azerbaijan's reach.


Iran is still a solid ally to Armenia AFAIK, & Russia's likely to continue selling weapons to both the Armo & Azeri sides.
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Postby Aureumterra III » Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:50 pm

Baltenstein wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Those who do not like Atatürk in the world are generally people with low education levels (Survey Studies).


Source:

The Turkish minister of Turkishness, Öztürk Türkuglu.

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Postby Insaanistan » Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:51 pm

Aureumterra III wrote:
Baltenstein wrote:
Source:

The Turkish minister of Turkishness, Öztürk Türkuglu.

How Turkish!


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Postby Heloin » Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:52 pm

Saiwania wrote:
Transjlwanja wrote:Armenians already see the conflict as existential; Nagorno-Karabakh's Armenians aren't leaving w/o a fight.


I'm saying the situation on the ground as it is currently, is that Armenia has lost (unless I'm mistaken). Hence, it is time for Armenia to seek an armistice with Azerbaijan granting them the victory. Nagorno-Karabakh in exchange for all of its previous population moving to Armenia is a fair trade that Azerbaijan will likely agree to.

I really doubt its even an option for Armenia to take the North Vietnam route where they can send a near infinite number of soldiers to try to win against Azerbaijan via attrition in a guerilla war followed by a conventional campaign, when Armenia has no major allies to send them weaponry or provide any safe havens beyond Azerbaijan's reach.

Every single post you make on the conflict singles that you have no idea what is happening or the what the last 30 years of conflict has been. Armenia is the disadvantaged party, they always have been, yet for the last 30 years they've won. Any sign of a clear cut victory is pure misunderstanding of the situation at best, and the proposal to remove the people from the Karabakh isn't an option the people living there would accept. There are peaceful options that both sides could easily come to even if your to blind to a lust for war to see(or more accurately want) them.
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Postby Saiwania » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:05 pm

Heloin wrote:Every single post you make on the conflict singles that you have no idea what is happening or the what the last 30 years of conflict has been. Armenia is the disadvantaged party, they always have been, yet for the last 30 years they've won. Any sign of a clear cut victory is pure misunderstanding of the situation at best, and the proposal to remove the people from the Karabakh isn't an option the people living there would accept. There are peaceful options that both sides could easily come to even if your to blind to a lust for war to see(or more accurately want) them.


The war has started, it is too late for peace. The entire purpose of it so far as I can tell, is to decide the fate of Nagorno-Karabakh. My point is that the residents of that province will have no choice but to leave if Azerbaijan is successful in annexing it by force. They identify more with Armenia, so it is more logical for them to leave for what will still be Armenian territory after the conflict is over.

Staying is sheer madness, it is like those Germans that stayed in Berlin on purpose in 1945. Those in Germany who were smart or capable enough, went west ahead of time to avoid the Red Army's jurisdiction. Generally speaking, those in the western half of Germany had a better fate or future prospects.

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Postby Heloin » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:10 pm

Saiwania wrote:
Heloin wrote:Every single post you make on the conflict singles that you have no idea what is happening or the what the last 30 years of conflict has been. Armenia is the disadvantaged party, they always have been, yet for the last 30 years they've won. Any sign of a clear cut victory is pure misunderstanding of the situation at best, and the proposal to remove the people from the Karabakh isn't an option the people living there would accept. There are peaceful options that both sides could easily come to even if your to blind to a lust for war to see(or more accurately want) them.


The war has started, it is too late for peace. The entire purpose of it so far as I can tell, is to decide the fate of Nagorno-Karabakh. My point is that the residents of that province will have no choice but to leave if Azerbaijan is successful in annexing it by force. They identify more with Armenia, so it is more logical for them to leave for what will still be Armenian territory after the conflict is over.

Staying is sheer madness, it is like those Germans that stayed in Berlin on purpose in 1945. Those in Germany who were smart or capable enough, went west ahead of time to avoid the Red Army's jurisdiction. Generally speaking, those in the western half of Germany had a better fate or future prospects.

Your point is that you have no idea what is or has been going on in the region, all this after making it clear you hate the idea of peace because you want a total war in the Caucasus. Any point you make can and should be dismissed at this point.
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Postby The New California Republic » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:16 pm

Saiwania wrote:The war has started, it is too late for peace.

Sorry but that is total shit, it's never too late for peace.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:23 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
Saiwania wrote:The war has started, it is too late for peace.

Sorry but that is total shit, it's never too late for peace.
It's never too late for peace, people are dying, some people talk about war I find it so wrong.
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Postby Insaanistan » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:25 pm

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Sorry but that is total shit, it's never too late for peace.
It's never too late for peace, people are dying, some people talk about war I find it so wrong.


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Postby Heloin » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:25 pm

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Sorry but that is total shit, it's never too late for peace.
It's never too late for peace, people are dying, some people talk about war I find it so wrong.

Your on the same page as Sai when it comes to calling for violence.
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Postby Saiwania » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:35 pm

The New California Republic wrote:This conflict needs to stay fucking stopped, so that this sort of thing doesn't happen again...


I'm not persuaded by what I'd call "boo hoo" stories. Perhaps civilians that're near the point of conflict should choose a side to fight on or assist, or make arrangements to leave for areas that're currently away from the front lines. War is war. I don't see it as a flaw that people happen to suffer some from a conflict.

What is more important is which side is winning and what battlefield manuvers are being done by both sides. Whoever advances further will win this.
Last edited by Saiwania on Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Insaanistan » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:37 pm

Saiwania wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:This conflict needs to stay fucking stopped, so that this sort of thing doesn't happen again...


I'm not persuaded by what I'd call "boo hoo" stories. Perhaps civilians that're near the point of conflict should choose a side to fight on or assist, or make arrangements to leave for areas that're currently away from the front lines. War is war. I don't see it as a flaw that people happen to suffer some from a conflict.

What is more important is which side is winning and what battlefield manuvers are being done by both sides. Whoever advances further will win this.


...
WHAT
THE
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السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركته
May the peace and blessings of God be with you!
Hello brother (or sister),
I’m an unapologetic Muslim and overall peaceful person.
My parents think I am an Indophile and Arabophile.
I’m heterosexual, but some of my friends might claim I’m asexual because I’m a 14-year old who’s never had a girlfriend (not that I really know any Muslimahs)
If you have any questions about Islam, or want to debate in a civil manner, I’m open to it.
Peace and Love.

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