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Possible ban on German imperial flag, it is going to far.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Ban the Imperial German flag (1871-1918)?

Yes, it’s fascist and Nazi
16
4%
Yes
27
7%
No
101
27%
No, and those who say yes need a short history lesson.
215
58%
What is the German Empire?
9
2%
 
Total votes : 368

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Baltenstein
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Founded: Jan 25, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Baltenstein » Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:59 am

Insaanistan wrote:
Baltenstein wrote:
Erm, what? What kind of "historians" are you talking about? Anyone who seriously suggests that the concept of slavery started with and was exclusive to the Atlantic Slave trade ought to stop calling himself historian.


Hold up. I never said it was exclusive to it. However, due to the Eurocentrism of our world, when we think of slavery, we generally think of the chattel slavery of the Atlantic Slave Trade. Chattel slavery had appeared several times throughout history but had almost never been the dominant one anywhere. To avoid people equating the types of slavery, many historians don’t like to refer to the other ones as such, or at least define it as a different type of slavery.


Maybe you think mostly and/or only of the Atlantic Slave Trade. Who are you to generalize like that? The first mention of slavery that appears in the history curriculum of your average European history lesson is that of the Ancient Mediterranean. Connected to that, if the pupil in question is also attending Sunday School or something similar, he will hear the tale of the Hebrews' enslavement in Egypt.

And again, who are these "many historians"? That makes about as much sense as saying that historians don't like to call to refer to military conflicts other than Second World War as "wars".
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Port Myreal
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Founded: Feb 05, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Port Myreal » Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:24 am

Eukaryotic Cells wrote:What flag would neo-Nazis fly at rallies if this flag was banned?

They'll probably use the Wirmer flag more often.
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Grand Hellenic Republic
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Founded: May 12, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Grand Hellenic Republic » Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:18 pm

Port Myreal wrote:
Eukaryotic Cells wrote:What flag would neo-Nazis fly at rallies if this flag was banned?

They'll probably use the Wirmer flag more often.


It would be too ironic for them to do that honestly, so I doubt it. I mean, we are talking about the flag of the people who almost killed their idol with a bomb.
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Grand Hellenic Republic
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Founded: May 12, 2020
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Postby Grand Hellenic Republic » Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:24 pm

Also yes, the Ottoman empire had both slavery and serfdom within its borders and it was quite bad. There was sexual slavery for many women who were taken into harems, the devshirme (gathering of very young christian boys to serve as soldiers/court officials) which was effectively state brainwashing on a portion of its subjugated subjects, and the berber pirates who under ottoman protection would raid christian shore villages and ships for some traditional old slaves, not to mention the origin of the word slave coming from enslaved slavs under arab and later ottoman dominion. Someone could make the argument that black people in America had it worse, but honestly I find comparing tragedies to be rather bad behaviour in general.
Last edited by Grand Hellenic Republic on Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Grand Hellenic Republic
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Founded: May 12, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Grand Hellenic Republic » Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:26 pm

Baltenstein wrote:
Grand Hellenic Republic wrote:I have seen neo-nazis and white nationalists on the internet say that if they start losing more flags they will start flying the LGBT one


Fun fact: Peruvian ethnonationalists already do that.

Image

Granted, it's because the flag of the Inca nation through pure coincidence happens to be almost completely identical to the LGBT flag but hey, details. :p


amazing! I knew about the inca flag being colorful but I didnt know it had a striped variant :rofl:
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The Greater Ohio Valley
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Founded: Jan 19, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Greater Ohio Valley » Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:45 pm

Kinda dumb tbh. The German Imperial flag doesn’t really have the same unsavory connotations as the Nazi Germany flag.
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Port Myreal
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Founded: Feb 05, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Port Myreal » Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:35 pm

Grand Hellenic Republic wrote:
Port Myreal wrote:They'll probably use the Wirmer flag more often.


It would be too ironic for them to do that honestly, so I doubt it. I mean, we are talking about the flag of the people who almost killed their idol with a bomb.

They already do.
Most German nationalists aren't pro-Nazism anyway. So using the Wirmer flag would make perfect sense for them. On the one hand they can display that they're nationalists (which many July 20th plotters indubitably were) and on the other hand to show opposition to authoritarian regimes like Nazi-Germany, but also East Germany under the Socialist Unity Party and, their current enemies, the "evil" European Union and Angela Merkel's "pro-immigration government".
Last edited by Port Myreal on Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Auristania
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Posts: 1122
Founded: Aug 12, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Auristania » Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:03 pm

Hitler was vegetaryan non-smoker.
Ban vegetaryanism, make smoking compulsory.

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The Reformed American Republic
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Posts: 7643
Founded: May 23, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby The Reformed American Republic » Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:12 pm

The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:Kinda dumb tbh. The German Imperial flag doesn’t really have the same unsavory connotations as the Nazi Germany flag.

Exactly. The German imperial flag represents old Germany, while the Nazi flag represents the horrors the Nazis did.
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Rusozak
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Founded: Jun 14, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Rusozak » Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:15 pm

The Reformed American Republic wrote:
The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:Kinda dumb tbh. The German Imperial flag doesn’t really have the same unsavory connotations as the Nazi Germany flag.

Exactly. The German imperial flag represents old Germany, while the Nazi flag represents the horrors the Nazis did.


Just spitballing ideas here, but what about lifting the ban on the actual Nazi flag just so we know who the Nazis are an don't have play a game of "genocidal monster or Kaiser nostalgist." Ban their banner and they just become harder to identify.
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The Reformed American Republic
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Founded: May 23, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby The Reformed American Republic » Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:20 pm

Rusozak wrote:
The Reformed American Republic wrote:Exactly. The German imperial flag represents old Germany, while the Nazi flag represents the horrors the Nazis did.


Just spitballing ideas here, but what about lifting the ban on the actual Nazi flag just so we know who the Nazis are an don't have play a game of "genocidal monster or Kaiser nostalgist." Ban their banner and they just become harder to identify.

Sounds good. I want them to out themselves too.
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"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." - Carl Schurz
Older posts do not reflect my positions.

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WayNeacTia
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Posts: 4330
Founded: Aug 01, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby WayNeacTia » Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:35 pm

The Reformed American Republic wrote:Fascists also fly the American flag. Should that be banned too?

Check, and I do believe Mate as well.

/thread
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Bear Stearns
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Posts: 11834
Founded: Dec 02, 2018
Capitalizt

Postby Bear Stearns » Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:47 pm

Bienenhalde wrote:It is unfortunate that the German Imperial flag has been appropriated by Neo-Nazis and other troublemakers. However, I wouldn't support banning it, and I feel like doing so could set a dangerous precedent.


The dangerous precedent was already set years ago.
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Bear Stearns
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Founded: Dec 02, 2018
Capitalizt

Postby Bear Stearns » Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:57 pm

Yet the former flag of East Germany remains unbanned...hmmmm
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The Snazzylands
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Posts: 742
Founded: Feb 20, 2015
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby The Snazzylands » Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:50 am

However, spokeswoman Simone Rafael says: "Bans show limits to what is good, but do not solve problems."
She expects that the “right-wing alternative scene” would then look for a new flag or simply march with the black, red and gold flag of Germany.

>neo-nazis use a flag
>it gets banned
>neo-nazis switch to a different flag
>repeat until they're forced to use official flag of Germany because all other flags have been banned
Now this is the German ingenuity we all know and love.
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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:56 am

The Snazzylands wrote:
However, spokeswoman Simone Rafael says: "Bans show limits to what is good, but do not solve problems."
She expects that the “right-wing alternative scene” would then look for a new flag or simply march with the black, red and gold flag of Germany.

>neo-nazis use a flag
>it gets banned
>neo-nazis switch to a different flag
>repeat until they're forced to use official flag of Germany because all other flags have been banned
Now this is the German ingenuity we all know and love.

Well Germany could put them in reeducation but there'd be outcries of "muh frees" more than it already is.
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Des-Bal
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Founded: Jan 24, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Des-Bal » Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:39 am

Wow that's shocking, I assumed first thing would be banned then everything would be great forever. Guess we need to ban second thing. I hope there never comes a day when third thing must be banned.
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The Kingdom of the Three Isles
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Postby The Kingdom of the Three Isles » Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:05 am

It would be going to far to ban it. Unlike the Nazi flag, it can’t be offensive. You might as well ban the UK flag because the British Empire enslaved black people. Also unlike the Nazi flag, it only represents a country, not a party that had racist and exclusive views.
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