Possible ban on German imperial flag, it is going to far.

[Thermodolia]

Britain, Turkey, and America were just as bad if not worse.

And Turkey actually still has the same flag as they did before.

Funny that the both of you seem to think that after I said all the empire’s of the time where shite your pointing out that yes, they were. The German Empire was awful just like the rest of them, no point starting the pointless contest of who was the worst monsters.

The King of Belgium was probably the worst though. If you make everyone else in that time go “holy shit dude you crazy” you’re pretty bad

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Poll could do with a 'flags I couldn't give a flying fuck' option.

[Albionist Great Britain]

This is a blatant attack upon German history and culture. While its use by neo-nazis and ultranationalists is unfortunate, it is no justification to ban the imperial tricolour. It would make more sense to ban the flag of the GDR given it [the GDR] was far more totalitarian and harmful to the people of Germany than the Kaiserreich.

I hope to see this not go ahead or get repealed. The German liberal establishment is only further ruining Germany and giving far-right rhetoric more ground.

If someone was that keen on Imperial Germany already that they'd care about this then this isn't the straw that broke the camels back for them. There isn't anyone who two days ago was really happy with Germany who because of this now thinks the state needs to goosestep it's way to the far right again. If there is then that person has some misplaced priorities.

That isn’t what I meant, sorry if the wording could’ve been better. I meant that this policy does nothing but hand legitimacy to far-right theories of anti-Germanism within the German liberal establishment, which helps the far-right seem, I guess, righter?

[Omnum]

The swatstika was used by the ancient greeks, anglo-saxons, and celts, and was a european symbol of good luck long before the Nazis came along.
Yet its no longer associated with good luck. Its associated with nazis. Things change. The iron cross is no longer associated with the Teutonic Knights or Prussia. Its associated with nazis, just like the swatstika, and we've banned the swatstika. Are you saying we should be able to fly the swatstika?

Funny... why did you not mention it was also a Native American symbol, an Indian (from India) symbol, and used by Hindu, Buddhist and Jainist faiths, but simply mentioned the Greeks, Anglo-Saxons and Celts?

Because the point he was getting at was that the Iron Cross was a germanic symbol long before nazis used it, so we shouldn't ban it. I was raising that the swatstika was also a European symbol long before the nazis used it. Obviously it is most associated culturally with Hindu/Native America, but I specifically was drawing the analogy to the iron cross there.

[Katganistan]

Funny... why did you not mention it was also a Native American symbol, an Indian (from India) symbol, and used by Hindu, Buddhist and Jainist faiths, but simply mentioned the Greeks, Anglo-Saxons and Celts?

That's literally the reason Hitler hijacked the swastika, it was so common in Indo-European cultures and would be pretty fitting as a common symbol for his "Aryan Reich"

Point is: why not mention that Aryans -- the original Aryans -- were Indian?
Why only mention "white Erupean" cultures that used the swastika in that post?

[Katganistan]

Funny... why did you not mention it was also a Native American symbol, an Indian (from India) symbol, and used by Hindu, Buddhist and Jainist faiths, but simply mentioned the Greeks, Anglo-Saxons and Celts?

Because the point he was getting at was that the Iron Cross was a germanic symbol long before nazis used it, so we shouldn't ban it. I was raising that the swatstika was also a European symbol long before the nazis used it. Obviously it is most associated culturally with Hindu/Native America, but I specifically was drawing the analogy to the iron cross there.

Then you should understand that that was not what came across. It came across as "all these other white cultures used it so it should be ok!" and seemed to ignore its origins completely.

Which... kind of is part of the point on why Neo-Nazis march around with it declaring themselves to for racial purity, and hate brown people and race traitors and securing the future for their little white children..... (at least in the US).

So yes, declaring it's an ancient white European symbol is more than a little tone deaf. Declaring it as an ancient religious symbol for many cultures and a symbol of good luck would have been the better argument.

[Omnum]

Because the point he was getting at was that the Iron Cross was a germanic symbol long before nazis used it, so we shouldn't ban it. I was raising that the swatstika was also a European symbol long before the nazis used it. Obviously it is most associated culturally with Hindu/Native America, but I specifically was drawing the analogy to the iron cross there.

Then you should understand that that was not what came across. It came across as "all these other white cultures used it so it should be ok!" and seemed to ignore its origins completely.

Which... kind of is part of the point on why Neo-Nazis march around with it declaring themselves to for racial purity, and hate brown people and race traitors and securing the future for their little white children..... (at least in the US).

So yes, declaring it's an ancient white European symbol is more than a little tone deaf. Declaring it as an ancient religious symbol for many cultures and a symbol of good luck would have been the better argument.

Oh no no, that was absolutely the point I was going for. In the context of that argument, he agreed that nazi flags with swatstikas shouldn't be flown because the association with nazis, but said iron crosses are fine because they were a Germanic symbol before the nazis. I then raised the point in that post that the swatstika was also used by germanic people before the nazis (and he doesn't support the swatstika flying), to point out the cognitive dissonance in his argument.

Hopefully I explained that adequately, does that make sense?

[The Reformed American Republic]

And this is why we need greater cultural backlash against you leftists.

Not even really a leftist socially, I just hate your country

If you're European, you're probably a social leftist.

[Omnum]

Not even really a leftist socially, I just hate your country

If you're European, you're probably a social leftist.

Australian

[The Reformed American Republic]

If you're European, you're probably a social leftist.

Australian

No difference there.

[The Restored Danelaw]

Australian

No difference there.

You're the real life version of that Skinner meme, aren't you?

[The Reformed American Republic]

No difference there.

You're the real life version of that Skinner meme, aren't you?

I'm out of touch because I had words with another poster.
Edit: I think you're the one out of touch.

[Omnum]

You're the real life version of that Skinner meme, aren't you?

I'm out of touch because I had words with another poster.

We're getting off topic, but uh, there is literally only one major non-governmental media source that is NOT owned by Rupert Murdoch in our country
like 9 out of our 10 major news corps are murdoch owned or affiliated
our conservative party has been in power for 56% of our country's history, which is saying a lot because until recently it used to be a series of smaller parties versus them (not a two party system)
We just re-elected a leader who doesn't believe in climate change and is a creationist christian who's best mate is an avid Qanon sperger
You do not get to make a false equivalence like that
I wish we had European social leftism sometimes, it'd be better than this
Anyway, back to flags

[The Reformed American Republic]

I wish we had European social leftism sometimes, it'd be better than this

I was partially right then. Now dropping this.

---

I don't think this historical flag should be banned. It's a piece of history, and it wasn't created explicitly to symbolize nazism, unlike the nazi flag.

[Ifreann]

Disrupting fascists from holding rallies and trying to build support is always a good idea.

---

And besides, what's going to happen if they ban it? The Nazis will then just adopt another symbol.

The flag gets confiscated and the person waving it gets fined.

The police in the state of Bremen can now confiscate the flags and ask the owners to pay a fine of up to 1000 euros.

---

The Germans need to stop covering up the past but instead learn from it

Germans don't cover up the past. Quite the contrary, they're very frank and up front about the terrible things their nation has done in the past. That's why they don't allow for the public promotion of the ideas that lead to those crimes. Because they've learned what happens when you let people hostile to the most basic of human rights have a platform to build power.

---

No, governments should not ban any flag, except those unique to banned groups.

1) The Nazis didn't create the Imperial Flag, they hijacked it (and the swastika too, as a matter of fact). If we were to ban a symbol just because bad guys used it at some point, that would create an unsettling precedent—what if neo-Nazis suddenly decided to use the LGBT rainbow flag, or another symbol of an "accepted" group? Would that symbol have to be banned as well, because it got hijacked and corrupted? Ridiculous policy.

2) Minus the eagle, the Imperial Flag is simply a tricolor like France, Italy and Netherlands. Do we really want to start banning simple sequences of colors?

3) Banning neo-Nazi symbols doesn't make neo-Nazis magically disappear. It pushes them underground, where keeping an eye on them becomes even harder. This is like putting black tape over the low fuel light in your car. You don't see the problem anymore, but the problem is still there.

Banning neo-Nazi symbols isn't meant to make them magically disappear, it's meant to make it harder for them to publicly build support. Which is obviously does. If they're pushed underground, then they're not likely to be swept into power in a series of elections. And it's not really that difficult to infiltrate neo-Nazi organisations, they tend to be incompetent.

---

If they ban this flag...

They already have. In Bremen.

---

Perhaps Nazis will choose a flag from a country that is anti-semetic to get around the ban. It will be interesting if Nazis use flags of anti-Jewish nations or flags from non-German nations that had a history of being racist and/or anti-Jewish. Germany better get ready to have many flag bans to keep liberal totalitarians happy.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-10-mo ... countries/

The Muslim brotherhood was founded by an admirer of Hitler and currently, many Islamic countries ban Israeli citizens from visiting and have invaded Israel in the recent past. This makes it possible that a flag from an anti-Jewish nation will be chosen by those that hate Jews if the old German flag is banned. However, Germany can't ban these flags without being accused of being intolerant towards Muslims. Liberals will be caught in a pickle if this happens.

https://billionbibles.org/sharia/hitler ... rhood.html

Here's the thing, though. If fashos try to appropriate a symbol that's already widely used and has other, non-fashy connotations, it won't work. They're too fringe to overcome the popular connotations of the national flag of a country that exists today and has people flying that flag because that's the country they're from.

---

The OP confuses me a bit so I’ll ask for clarification. Is this really happening, a ban on the German imperial flag or is this an exaggerated claim?

Bremen has banned the public use of some specific German imperial flags, and some other states are thinking of following suit.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Disrupting fascists from holding rallies and trying to build support is always a good idea.

---

And besides, what's going to happen if they ban it? The Nazis will then just adopt another symbol.

The flag gets confiscated and the person waving it gets fined.

The police in the state of Bremen can now confiscate the flags and ask the owners to pay a fine of up to 1000 euros.

---

The Germans need to stop covering up the past but instead learn from it

Germans don't cover up the past. Quite the contrary, they're very frank and up front about the terrible things their nation has done in the past. That's why they don't allow for the public promotion of the ideas that lead to those crimes. Because they've learned what happens when you let people hostile to the most basic of human rights have a platform to build power.

---

No, governments should not ban any flag, except those unique to banned groups.

1) The Nazis didn't create the Imperial Flag, they hijacked it (and the swastika too, as a matter of fact). If we were to ban a symbol just because bad guys used it at some point, that would create an unsettling precedent—what if neo-Nazis suddenly decided to use the LGBT rainbow flag, or another symbol of an "accepted" group? Would that symbol have to be banned as well, because it got hijacked and corrupted? Ridiculous policy.

2) Minus the eagle, the Imperial Flag is simply a tricolor like France, Italy and Netherlands. Do we really want to start banning simple sequences of colors?

3) Banning neo-Nazi symbols doesn't make neo-Nazis magically disappear. It pushes them underground, where keeping an eye on them becomes even harder. This is like putting black tape over the low fuel light in your car. You don't see the problem anymore, but the problem is still there.

Banning neo-Nazi symbols isn't meant to make them magically disappear, it's meant to make it harder for them to publicly build support. Which is obviously does. If they're pushed underground, then they're not likely to be swept into power in a series of elections. And it's not really that difficult to infiltrate neo-Nazi organisations, they tend to be incompetent.

---

If they ban this flag...

They already have. In Bremen.

---

Perhaps Nazis will choose a flag from a country that is anti-semetic to get around the ban. It will be interesting if Nazis use flags of anti-Jewish nations or flags from non-German nations that had a history of being racist and/or anti-Jewish. Germany better get ready to have many flag bans to keep liberal totalitarians happy.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-10-mo ... countries/

The Muslim brotherhood was founded by an admirer of Hitler and currently, many Islamic countries ban Israeli citizens from visiting and have invaded Israel in the recent past. This makes it possible that a flag from an anti-Jewish nation will be chosen by those that hate Jews if the old German flag is banned. However, Germany can't ban these flags without being accused of being intolerant towards Muslims. Liberals will be caught in a pickle if this happens.

https://billionbibles.org/sharia/hitler ... rhood.html

Here's the thing, though. If fashos try to appropriate a symbol that's already widely used and has other, non-fashy connotations, it won't work. They're too fringe to overcome the popular connotations of the national flag of a country that exists today and has people flying that flag because that's the country they're from.

---

The OP confuses me a bit so I’ll ask for clarification. Is this really happening, a ban on the German imperial flag or is this an exaggerated claim?

Bremen has banned the public use of some specific German imperial flags, and some other states are thinking of following suit.

Thank you for the clarification.

Is it because of current unrest and events in Germany or has this been in the works for some time?

[Omnum]

snip

Very well organised and concise logical arguments. I applaud you, king.

[The Archregimancy]

Funny that the both of you seem to think that after I said all the empire’s of the time where shite your pointing out that yes, they were. The German Empire was awful just like the rest of them, no point starting the pointless contest of who was the worst monsters.

The King of Belgium was probably the worst though. If you make everyone else in that time go “holy shit dude you crazy” you’re pretty bad

With the significant qualifier that the Congo Free State of Leopold II was a personal possession of the Belgian monarch, and not a colony of the Belgian state. Belgium would only take control of then became the Belgian Congo in 1908, after the outcry over the 1904 Casement report on atrocities in the Congo forced Leopold to relinquish control.

However, except for the period 1971-1997, when the country was Zaire, what's now the Democratic Republic of the Congo has continued to use a flag that incorporates the blue background and yellow star that formed the flag of both the Congo Free State and the Belgian Congo. The star has moved a couple of times, and a lighter shade of blue's been used since 2003, but it's still ultimately derived from the flag used by both sets of colonial oppressors as the flag of the territory.

Liberia is the only other African country that I can think of that uses a flag directly derived from the flag used by the colonising power (noting that Liberia is an unusual case), though South Africa's flag deliberately incorporates the colours of the British and Dutch flags (which, conveniently, are the same), and Algeria and Tunisia either incorporate nods to the pre-European control of the Ottoman Empire or (in Tunisia's case) are directly drawn from Ottoman-period flags.

[Ifreann]

Bremen has banned the public use of some specific German imperial flags, and some other states are thinking of following suit.

Thank you for the clarification.

Is it because of current unrest and events in Germany or has this been in the works for some time?

Neo-Nazis using symbols older imperial German symbols isn't a new thing, but it sounds like this is a response to a sort of German "sovereign citizen"-esque movement that holds that the modern federal republic is an illegal occupying force and the legitimate German government is the German Empire.

[The Restored Danelaw]

Thank you for the clarification.

Is it because of current unrest and events in Germany or has this been in the works for some time?

Neo-Nazis using symbols older imperial German symbols isn't a new thing, but it sounds like this is a response to a sort of German "sovereign citizen"-esque movement that holds that the modern federal republic is an illegal occupying force and the legitimate German government is the German Empire.

They hold the Weimar Republic s the legitimate organization. And I mean the Reichsbürger movement has been around for way longer than the recent events.

[Cop Met]

kinda looks racist at first glance, but i think that's just because i've see racists use it
i'm all for it. i'm not german, but if the flag isn't officially used for anything and is a racist symbol, it just makes sense to prevent its use, like the confederate flag.

I've seen racists use your face as a symbol for their racism. Your face has been banned, please cover up.

Also: nothing wrong with the Confederate flag.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Thank you for the clarification.

Is it because of current unrest and events in Germany or has this been in the works for some time?

Neo-Nazis using symbols older imperial German symbols isn't a new thing, but it sounds like this is a response to a sort of German "sovereign citizen"-esque movement that holds that the modern federal republic is an illegal occupying force and the legitimate German government is the German Empire.

Ah, perhaps stubbornly clinging to a past.

I don’t think I’m suited to say much here.

[The Restored Danelaw]

kinda looks racist at first glance, but i think that's just because i've see racists use it
i'm all for it. i'm not german, but if the flag isn't officially used for anything and is a racist symbol, it just makes sense to prevent its use, like the confederate flag.

I've seen racists use your face as a symbol for their racism. Your face has been banned, please cover up.

Also: nothing wrong with the Confederate flag.

The Confederate Flag is like, one of the incredibly small number of symbols in history that actually should be banned across the board. Admittedly the Nazi Flag is another.

[Ifreann]

Neo-Nazis using symbols older imperial German symbols isn't a new thing, but it sounds like this is a response to a sort of German "sovereign citizen"-esque movement that holds that the modern federal republic is an illegal occupying force and the legitimate German government is the German Empire.

They hold the Weimar Republic s the legitimate organization. And I mean the Reichsbürger movement has been around for way longer than the recent events.

All I know about them is what I've gathered from this thread, so any clarifications or corrections are welcome.

[Kowani]

kinda looks racist at first glance, but i think that's just because i've see racists use it
i'm all for it. i'm not german, but if the flag isn't officially used for anything and is a racist symbol, it just makes sense to prevent its use, like the confederate flag.

I've seen racists use your face as a symbol for their racism. Your face has been banned, please cover up.

Also: nothing wrong with the Confederate flag.

Never understood how the right-wing, which prides itself on displays of patriotism, fights so hard to defend losing traitors.