NationStates

Cekoviu wrote:a) why's natural good
b) don't pull that evopsych bs on me

a). Natural is good when it is healthy and beneficial to our mental health and ability to succeed and thrive as a species. Rather remarkable that the most successful, most prosperous, most fulfilled and happiest societies on the planet all share a common embrace of freedom as a fundamental human right, whether San bushmen hunter-gatherers in South Africa or the people living in modern liberal democracies.

b). As much as you might not like it, we are as much a product of evolution as every other species on our planet. Totalitarianism and bureaucracy on the scales implemented in the past 100 years are an aberration in history and go completely against everything we know in our bones to be right and best for us as a species. Our entire history as modern man, let alone our predecessors, is based upon freedom, exploration and curiosity.

And I know your type, you believe that when the Revolution comes you'll be one of the great leaders, the one in charge of everything with a spacious apartment and private car implementing its ideals across the nation to roaring applause from the workers and peasants. Fact is, people far more ruthless and less ideological than you are already plotting against you and will take over in short order, and if you're lucky you'll be lower than dogshit in the Party ranks exiled to somewhere in the middle of nowhere, oppressed and hungry just like the rest of us. If you're unfortunate or foolish enough to speak your mind and try to rail about the platitudes of the Revolution, you'll find your way to the prison with a bullet in the back of your head. Happens every time.

Cekoviu wrote:

The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:I imagine people, and in turn society, is generally happier without the threat of being gulag’d, killed or tortured for daring to speak their mind on things they want to speak their minds on, enjoy the things they like enjoying (provided they aren’t raping, murdering or maiming other people) or just going about their day. You seem to be enjoying those freedoms right now.

believe me, if i knew i could just easily get killed for writing politics online, i'd be thrilled, but that's beside the point
why are rape, murder, and maiming somehow a distinct class, the only prohibited things to you? what's special about them?

If you wanna drag this into a philosophical rigmarole over why rape, murder and maiming is “special” then I know you’re not in this in particularly good faith because you probably know all the possible answers to that one and I’m good on not having to waste my time.

Cekoviu wrote:

Vetalia wrote:
It's the natural, best state of human existence and deeply ingrained in us via millions of years of evolution.

a) why's natural good
b) don't pull that evopsych bs on me

The Emerald Legion wrote:
By and large, Rape, Murder, and Maiming people requires violating their freedom of choice.

what about, say, taxation? that violates freedom of choice, more or less. or how about abortion? hunting? if those don't count, why not? do only adult humans have the right to bodily integrity and their life? why?

I'm not particularly fond of taxation either, however, hypothetically it doesn't violate freedom of choice as everyone has a say in the government, meaning everyone has a say in what the government spends money on, and therefor an obligation to pay their fair share of what's been agreed to do. The trouble comes when the government loses that representative nature.

There's a difference between killing someone and not providing them with something they need to live. I don't have to hand a starving man food just because he's starving. But I should not be allowed to stab said starving man in the throat.

Also no, Animals don't have rights. They're property.

I would recommend everyone return to the topic of this thread.

Cekoviu wrote:there should not be freedom of speech or freedom of the press

This tbh. Freedom of speech and the press is quite easily the most dangerous and destructive thing in our nation.

Freedom of speech = the government cannot persecute you because of what you say or believe. It does not mean you're free to say or believe assholish things and not be called an asshole.

US-SSR wrote:Freedom of speech = the government cannot persecute you because of what you say or believe. It does not mean you're free to say or believe assholish things and not be called out as an asshole.

However, you're also not free to just fire people solely because they're an asshole.

The Emerald Legion wrote:

US-SSR wrote:Freedom of speech = the government cannot persecute you because of what you say or believe. It does not mean you're free to say or believe assholish things and not be called out as an asshole.

However, you're also not free to just fire people solely because they're an asshole.

Ah, yes you are, if they don't have a union to stand up for them and/or if you have a business need not to employ assholes or have them associated with your brand. Which pretty much describes every publicly held company, government or academic institution, etc. etc. etc.

The Emerald Legion wrote:

US-SSR wrote:Freedom of speech = the government cannot persecute you because of what you say or believe. It does not mean you're free to say or believe assholish things and not be called out as an asshole.

However, you're also not free to just fire people solely because they're an asshole.

Private organizations have this right.

Freedom of Speech is a potentially dangerous business, however it should be tolerated to a certain degree. As long as it doesn't incite chaos and doesn't attempt to subvert rational debate.

Urquhart wrote:Freedom of Speech is a privilege is our esteemed nation. Freedom of Speech has resulted in many a fool bypassing rational debate and inciting chaos. This is something that absolutely couldn't be tolerated, as these rabble have caused the destruction and subversion of our orderly sociopolitical climate. Thus, they have all been censored in the media and imprisoned for extended periods of time.

If you think this is, this is not in character rp questions.

I think the Federal Republic of Germany has the right idea in that they censor both Neo-Nazis and far-left communists.

Washington Resistance Army wrote:

Cekoviu wrote:there should not be freedom of speech or freedom of the press

This tbh. Freedom of speech and the press is quite easily the most dangerous and destructive thing in our nation.

man i enjoy the new based wra

Free speech is one of the most important liberties. Allowing corporate entities and hierarchies such as the state to suppress freedom of expression goes against my values as a libertarian socialist. True, things like bigotry are egregious, but it shouldn’t be the state suppressing its rather the people being able to react in it however way they please.

Free speech is good, except where it conflicts with national security. Then safety has to come first.

Infected Mushroom wrote:Free speech is good, except where it conflicts with national security. Then safety has to come first.

Free speech means the state can prosecute you for treasonous or seditious acts, but not treasonous or seditious thoughts or ideas. Giving the state the power to decide which thoughts or ideas are treasonous or seditious and thus prosecuteable is the classic slippery slope, viz. the Red Scare.

Infected Mushroom wrote:Free speech is good, except where it conflicts with national security. Then safety has to come first.

I wouldn't go down that line of reasoning. If the state has decided that the people are not able to handle certain pieces of information responsibly, do you really trust politicians with it?

Cordel One wrote:

Gutaiai wrote:Free speech is inherently important for the exchange of ideas.

Why censor "hate speech" or extremists when you can use your rights to speak freely as an invitation to mock and ridicule their ideas?

Anyone who argues otherwise is just asking for a slippery slope where the government silences all opposition under the pretext of "hate speech" and "radicals" and becomes extremely totalitarian.

The slippery slope is a logical fallacy.

Funny thing, because the slippery slope fallacy varies based on subject. And it just so happens that in the case of free speech, we already have precedent that proves the slippery slope exists.

If you want to properly point out a slippery slope fallacy, you should do it against an argument where such slippery slope is known to not exist. Otherwise you end up pointing out a fallacy that simply isn't there.

Cekoviu wrote:

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
This tbh. Freedom of speech and the press is quite easily the most dangerous and destructive thing in our nation.

man i enjoy the new based wra

Didn't like my response to you though, apparently. Truth hurts.

Infected Mushroom wrote:Free speech is good, except where it conflicts with national security. Then safety has to come first.

Sure but how is "national security" defined? Seems like you back Winnie the Flu Xi Jinping, the Tiananmen Square massacre, ethnic cleansing in Tibet and the rest of the Chicom crimes based on your signature as opposed to supporting the legitimate Chinese government, i.e. Republic of China in Taiwan over all of China.

Vetalia wrote:

Cekoviu wrote:why? what's inherently good about freedom?

It's the natural, best state of human existence and deeply ingrained in us via millions of years of evolution.

Read Hobbes.

Punished UMN wrote:

Vetalia wrote:
It's the natural, best state of human existence and deeply ingrained in us via millions of years of evolution.

Read Hobbes.

Look at hunter-gatherer societies.

Vetalia wrote:

Punished UMN wrote:Read Hobbes.

Look at hunter-gatherer societies.

Yeah, it's so free how they murder each other.

Vetalia wrote:

Cekoviu wrote:man i enjoy the new based wra

Didn't like my response to you though, apparently. Truth hurts.

nah i just don't want to get a wEeK vAcAtIoN for threadjacking right after i got off the last one

Punished UMN wrote:

Vetalia wrote:
It's the natural, best state of human existence and deeply ingrained in us via millions of years of evolution.

Read Hobbes.

the “state of nature” and the “social contract” are ahistorical bullshit that have no basis in reality.