Free Speech:「Yes or No」

[Loben III]

Honestly I just glanced at it because you probably wrote that as if you didn’t like what I had to say.

I’ll get back to you as soon as you form a coherent sentence, okay buddy?

Sure, whatever.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Pinochet wasn’t fascist?

No.

Nazi Germany and Italy were capitalistic. Were the Nazis not fascist?

"You serious?"

What?

Nazi Germany had Krupp, IG Farben and Friedrich Flick. These companies were both independent contractors and Nazi donors. There was some nationalisation, but overall, wealthy capitalists and industrialists remained the same as they had in Weimar, just with less Union opposition.

[Nuroblav]

Even coming from someone who dislikes both Trump and facism, I would not call Trump a facist. While some of the signs show, Trump is too capitalist to be facist - something that would be more along the lines of corporatism. I also have doubts over whether he would be authoritarian enough, but who knows.

Right-wing populist is probably more accurate. But back on topic we go.

[Atheris]

No.


(Image)
"You serious?"

What?

Nazi Germany had Krupp, IG Farben and Friedrich Flick. These companies were both independent contractors and Nazi donors. There was some nationalisation, but overall, wealthy capitalists and industrialists remained the same as they had in Weimar, just with less Union opposition.

Nazi Germany didn't let small private businesses and enterprises survive. They supported large monopolies and trusts, not letting people be able to start their own business and grow their wealth in a capitalist fashion. That's corporatism, not capitalism.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

He might call himself a communist, but he would not be a communist. Because he is a rich owner of companies who hasn’t worked a day in his life. Yes, he wants power. That’s what fascism is: only concerned with anti-leftism and power.

That’s not fascism. That could be literally anything. Reagan under that metric is a fascist, instead of ya know neocon prime.

You are not making arguments against Trump being a fascist.

Because it’s pretty fucking plain that Trump is no fascist

So plain, in fact, that you don’t have to argue?

It’s not the only metric. But being an opportunist does not make you less of a fascist. I already pointed out all the fascistic policies before, including the racism, rabid xenophobi and antidemocratic tendencies.

Pinochet wasn’t fascist?

No he wasn’t.

Stop with this silly boogieman. The republicans aren’t fascist but just right wing authoritarian, hell out actual fascist groups hate the republicans for not being fascist.

Nazi Germany and Italy were capitalistic. Were the Nazis not fascist?

No they where not. They where in a very strange third position. Fascism isn’t based on capitalism but a corporatism managed by the state. Jesus read some damn fascist theory

I have read enormous amounts on the actual, factual imposition of fascist ideologies. Don’t discard my opinions as uniformed just because you don’t agree with them, because I have studied this subject thoroughly.

They called thmselves third position because it was popular, but in actual fact they just supported the ruling capitalistic class, because they relied on one another for power and resources.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

What?

Nazi Germany had Krupp, IG Farben and Friedrich Flick. These companies were both independent contractors and Nazi donors. There was some nationalisation, but overall, wealthy capitalists and industrialists remained the same as they had in Weimar, just with less Union opposition.

Nazi Germany didn't let small private businesses and enterprises survive. They supported large monopolies and trusts, not letting people be able to start their own business and grow their wealth in a capitalist fashion. That's corporatism, not capitalism.

What about this is not capitalistic? Capitalism also supports monopolisation. It’s what happens when you don’t step in to regulate the market.

[An-Tanwir]

you clearly don’t know shit about extremist ideologies

me when i watch 1 Jreg video

[Atheris]

Nazi Germany didn't let small private businesses and enterprises survive. They supported large monopolies and trusts, not letting people be able to start their own business and grow their wealth in a capitalist fashion. That's corporatism, not capitalism.

What about this is not capitalistic? Capitalism also supports monopolisation. It’s what happens when you don’t step in to regulate the market.

Capitalism supports letting private enterprise sprout up and for people to make their own wealth by making and creating enterprise, something both Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy actively opposed and clamped down on as part of Fascist Economics. (source: The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany, William L. Shirer)

Nazi Germany only supported private businesses if they funded the war machine (source: The Role of Private Property in the Nazi Economy: The Case of Industry, Christoph Buchheim and Jonas Scherner), leaving civilian enterprise in the dust. How exactly is that capitalistic?

edit: a space

[Cordel One]

I dislike Biden, but he’s better than Trump.

The fact that Trump is not too extreme for you says more about you than about Trump, tbh. If loving your country leads to the things Trump is doing, then yeah, it’s fascistm and it’s bad.

The fact you don’t fear fascism is probably because you wouldn’t suffer under it. At first.

Trump isn’t extreme, in no way Is he extreme. And what is he actually doing that is so fascist and bad? And no I don’t care what happens to the United States. Elect Biden, let it fall into anarchy. As long as my family there gets out, let it all burn for all I care. Sadly this is not how it works and it would be negative for me if the USA falls into anarchy and I currently prefer for it to be like prosperous than collapsing.

The right makes Biden sound really cool by labeling him an anarchist and a radical communist when he's really just another status quo war criminal.

[The Restored Danelaw]

I harbor great dislike for the concept of 'free speech'. Speech is not, and should never be, free of consequence. The thing is, I prefer "free speech" to someone other than myself -and those politically aligned with me- defining those consequences.

[Thermodolia]

That’s not fascism. That could be literally anything. Reagan under that metric is a fascist, instead of ya know neocon prime.


Because it’s pretty fucking plain that Trump is no fascist

So plain, in fact, that you don’t have to argue?

Yes because everyone else in this thread sees that he’s not a fascist except you.

It’s not the only metric. But being an opportunist does not make you less of a fascist. I already pointed out all the fascistic policies before, including the racism, rabid xenophobi and antidemocratic tendencies.

Which makes him a racist authoritarian but not a fascist.

There’s a number of reasons to oppose Trump, you don’t need to make up that he’s a fascist to get people to oppose him.

No he wasn’t.

Stop with this silly boogieman. The republicans aren’t fascist but just right wing authoritarian, hell out actual fascist groups hate the republicans for not being fascist.


No they where not. They where in a very strange third position. Fascism isn’t based on capitalism but a corporatism managed by the state. Jesus read some damn fascist theory

I have read enormous amounts on the actual, factual imposition of fascist ideologies. Don’t discard my opinions as uniformed just because you don’t agree with them, because I have studied this subject thoroughly.

I don’t believe that you have. Otherwise you’d realize they where corporatists and not capitalists. Pretty much every fascist on this site can tell you they don’t care for capitalism.

They called thmselves third position because it was popular, but in actual fact they just supported the ruling capitalistic class, because they relied on one another for power and resources.

Because they are third position. Fascism is corporatism.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

What about this is not capitalistic? Capitalism also supports monopolisation. It’s what happens when you don’t step in to regulate the market.

Capitalism supports letting private enterprise sprout up and for people to make their own wealth by making and creating enterprise, something both Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy actively opposed and clamped down on as part of Fascist Economics. (source: The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany, William L. Shirer)

Nazi Germany only supported private businesses if they funded the war machine (source: The Role of Private Property in the Nazi Economy: The Case of Industry, Christoph Buchheim and Jonas Scherner), leaving civilian enterprise in the dust. How exactly is that capitalistic?

edit: a space

You’re not describing capitalism, though. Capitalism, literally, is an economic system where the means of production are controlled by those people who invested the capital. In Nazi Germany, business was heavily privatised and given over to those with the capital to pay for it, in return for voluntary contributions to the State. Sure, they took over the cartel infrastructure left by Weimar, but their own economic policy was one of support for capitalist and privatisation. That is not foreign enough to capitalism to be called its own thing.

[Eukaryotic Cells]

What about this is not capitalistic? Capitalism also supports monopolisation. It’s what happens when you don’t step in to regulate the market.

Capitalism supports letting private enterprise sprout up and for people to make their own wealth by making and creating enterprise, something both Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy actively opposed and clamped down on as part of Fascist Economics. (source: The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany, William L. Shirer)

Nazi Germany only supported private businesses if they funded the war machine (source: The Role of Private Property in the Nazi Economy: The Case of Industry, Christoph Buchheim and Jonas Scherner), leaving civilian enterprise in the dust. How exactly is that capitalistic?

edit: a space

Not saying this in opposition to your points, but more as an added comment.

It should be remembered that Nazism was inherently flexible and pragmatic when it came to economics. Economic policies were instituted in service of their strategic aims and political ideology, which was based much more on theories of race and nationalism. This is to be contrasted with other ideologies which are much more heavily based on some school of economic thought (e.g. Marxism).

There were some genuinely left-wing elements within the Nazi Party (the Strasserists are the most prominent example), but they were either purged or marginalized.

[Atheris]

Capitalism supports letting private enterprise sprout up and for people to make their own wealth by making and creating enterprise, something both Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy actively opposed and clamped down on as part of Fascist Economics. (source: The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany, William L. Shirer)

Nazi Germany only supported private businesses if they funded the war machine (source: The Role of Private Property in the Nazi Economy: The Case of Industry, Christoph Buchheim and Jonas Scherner), leaving civilian enterprise in the dust. How exactly is that capitalistic?

edit: a space

You’re not describing capitalism, though. Capitalism, literally, is an economic system where the means of production are controlled by those people who invested the capital. In Nazi Germany, business was heavily privatised and given over to those with the capital to pay for it, in return for voluntary contributions to the State. Sure, they took over the cartel infrastructure left by Weimar, but their own economic policy was one of support for capitalist and privatisation. That is not foreign enough to capitalism to be called its own thing.

Have you read anything about Nazi economics?
Here, let me give you some material.

In the six years between the Fascist victory in Germany and the outbreak of war, Nazism erected a system of production, distribution and consumption that defies classification in any of the usual categories. It was not capitalism in the traditional sense: the autonomous market mechanism so characteristic of capitalism during the last two centuries had all but disappeared. It was not State capitalism: the government disclaimed any desire to own the means of production, and in fact took steps to denationalize them. It was not socialism or communism: private property and private profit still existed. The Nazi system was, rather, a combination of some of the characteristics of capitalism and a highly planned economy.

Source: Nazi War Finance and Banking, Otto Nathan

Edit: Made it easier to read the quote.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

So plain, in fact, that you don’t have to argue?

Yes because everyone else in this thread sees that he’s not a fascist except you.

It’s not the only metric. But being an opportunist does not make you less of a fascist. I already pointed out all the fascistic policies before, including the racism, rabid xenophobi and antidemocratic tendencies.

Which makes him a racist authoritarian but not a fascist.

There’s a number of reasons to oppose Trump, you don’t need to make up that he’s a fascist to get people to oppose him.

I have read enormous amounts on the actual, factual imposition of fascist ideologies. Don’t discard my opinions as uniformed just because you don’t agree with them, because I have studied this subject thoroughly.

I don’t believe that you have. Otherwise you’d realize they where corporatists and not capitalists. Pretty much every fascist on this site can tell you they don’t care for capitalism.

They called thmselves third position because it was popular, but in actual fact they just supported the ruling capitalistic class, because they relied on one another for power and resources.

Because they are third position. Fascism is corporatism.

“If you understood it, you would agree with me, and you don’t agree with me, therefore you don’t understand it”

If the only reason Trump is not a fascist is because he supports capitalists, then that is a very weak distinction to make. Fascism is not an ideology like any form of socialism, and you cannot say Trump he does not fit the theoretic mold 100%, because at that point, not even Mussolini and Hitler are fascists, and the term ceases to lose all meaning.

Trump is a right-wing authoritarian with anti-democratic tendencies who uses inflamatory populist rhetoric to promote his ultra-nationalist, xenophobic agenda and thinks all business in the US should serve the national interest. He is concerned with masculinity, the ‘defeated state’, enemies who stabbed America in the back, and enemies who are both weak and strong at the same time. Or, as I like to call it, fascist. Saying “well, he doesn’t support x part of the ideology”, while he overwhelmingly ticks all the boxes of fascism, would render the term useless, because fascism is inherently opportunistic and will shift on a dime depending on where it needs to seize power. Corporatism is not here yet, but already, Trump has made overtures to support companies he likes and attacking companies he dislikes, which is yet as far as he can go.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

You’re not describing capitalism, though. Capitalism, literally, is an economic system where the means of production are controlled by those people who invested the capital. In Nazi Germany, business was heavily privatised and given over to those with the capital to pay for it, in return for voluntary contributions to the State. Sure, they took over the cartel infrastructure left by Weimar, but their own economic policy was one of support for capitalist and privatisation. That is not foreign enough to capitalism to be called its own thing.

Have you read anything about Nazi economics?
Here, let me give you some material.

In the six years between the Fascist victory in Germany and the outbreak of war, Nazism erected a system of production, distribution and consumption that defies classification in any of the usual categories. It was not capitalism in the traditional sense: the autonomous market mechanism so characteristic of capitalism during the last two centuries had all but disappeared. It was not State capitalism: the government disclaimed any desire to own the means of production, and in fact took steps to denationalize them. It was not socialism or communism: private property and private profit still existed. The Nazi system was, rather, a combination of some of the characteristics of capitalism and a highly planned economy.

Source: Nazi War Finance and Banking, Otto Nathan

Edit: Made it easier to read the quote.

If that makes Nazi Germany not capitalist, then both the US and Britain ceased being capitalistic during both world wars, because they did the same thing.

[Atheris]

-snippy snippy-
Trump is a right-wing authoritarian with anti-democratic tendencies who uses inflamatory populist rhetoric to promote his ultra-nationalist, xenophobic agenda and thinks all business in the US should serve the national interest. He is concerned with masculinity, the ‘defeated state’, enemies who stabbed America in the back, and enemies who are both weak and strong at the same time.

That's honestly your best point yet for Trump being a fascist. I'm not going to argue if he's a fascist or not, but in all honesty, that was really well done. Props.

[Nuroblav]

The right makes Biden sound really cool by labeling him an anarchist and a radical communist when he's really just another status quo war criminal.

Especially since he's outright criticised anarchists.

Not sure how we got from free speech to trump being a facist or not.

[Atheris]

Have you read anything about Nazi economics?
Here, let me give you some material.



Source: Nazi War Finance and Banking, Otto Nathan

Edit: Made it easier to read the quote.

If that makes Nazi Germany not capitalist, then both the US and Britain ceased being capitalistic during both world wars, because they did the same thing.

Arguably yes, but those were wartime measures while Nazi Germany was doing the same thing during peacetime. It's a fundamental part of Nazi ideology both in practice and in theory, and that makes it distinct from American and British capitalism as they were only suspended in wartime, while Hitler forced the companies to undergo wartime measures in peace, which is distinctly different from American and British capitalism as they did not institute a wartime economy during the interwar.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

If that makes Nazi Germany not capitalist, then both the US and Britain ceased being capitalistic during both world wars, because they did the same thing.

Arguably yes, but those were wartime measures while Nazi Germany was doing the same thing during peacetime. It's a fundamental part of Nazi ideology both in practice and in theory, and that makes it distinct from American and British capitalism as they were only suspended in wartime, while Hitler forced the companies to undergo wartime measures in peace, which is distinctly different from American and British capitalism as they did not institute a wartime economy during the interwar.

Well, that’s an argument, right there. Because Germany was, of course, preparing for war from the very beginning of their power. So, comparing peacetime in Germany with peacetime in the western allies might not be very fair. Also, importantly: during the Great Depression, the US was doing roughly the same thing, with more nationalisation than Nazi Germany was doing. In the end, due to higher taxes in the US, a businessowner was probably better off in Nazi Germany than in the US, granted that you were not Jewish.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

The right makes Biden sound really cool by labeling him an anarchist and a radical communist when he's really just another status quo war criminal.

Especially since he's outright criticised anarchists.

Not sure how we got from free speech to trump being a facist or not.

Well, in my opinion, fascists should not be able to spout their propaganda, and I think that applies to a lot of the Republican program.

[Loben III]

Especially since he's outright criticised anarchists.

Not sure how we got from free speech to trump being a facist or not.

Well, in my opinion, fascists should not be able to spout their propaganda, and I think that applies to a lot of the Republican program.

awful convenient.

[Eukaryotic Cells]

Have you read anything about Nazi economics?
Here, let me give you some material.



Source: Nazi War Finance and Banking, Otto Nathan

Edit: Made it easier to read the quote.

If that makes Nazi Germany not capitalist, then both the US and Britain ceased being capitalistic during both world wars, because they did the same thing.

I would argue that in practice Nazi Germany had a mixed economy. They had a bloc of privately owned, large industrial conglomerates, along with a set of smaller suppliers which were organized around these conglomerates. The state created a symbiotic, integrated relationship with these economic blocs. The state also nationalized the labor unions and directly controlled pools of laborers through public works organizations.

All of this wasn't the main point of Nazism though. The main point was to build an authoritarian ethnostate and to conquer and colonize lands in Eastern Europe.

[Atheris]

Arguably yes, but those were wartime measures while Nazi Germany was doing the same thing during peacetime. It's a fundamental part of Nazi ideology both in practice and in theory, and that makes it distinct from American and British capitalism as they were only suspended in wartime, while Hitler forced the companies to undergo wartime measures in peace, which is distinctly different from American and British capitalism as they did not institute a wartime economy during the interwar.

Well, that’s an argument, right there. Because Germany was, of course, preparing for war from the very beginning of their power. So, comparing peacetime in Germany with peacetime in the western allies might not be very fair. Also, importantly: during the Great Depression, the US was doing roughly the same thing, with more nationalisation than Nazi Germany was doing. In the end, due to higher taxes in the US, a businessowner was probably better off in Nazi Germany than in the US, granted that you were not Jewish.

The United States was in a worse economic situation than Nazi Germany, as the Great Depression began in New York City, not to mention that the United States in 1933 had approximately 58.3 million more people over a land area over a million times larger than the German Reich. A businessowner of a rather large company would probably be better off in Nazi Germany than the US (that's how Fanta started, actually), but a small businessowner looking to start his own company would be in much more dire straits in the Reich than in the US in 1933.

While Nazi Germany did have an unemployment rate of 0%, a lot of that is due to the expansion and privatization of large previously government-owned sections of the country (such as the Autobahn) and the prevention of small business from starting up forcing potential entrepreneurs to instead find jobs in corporate-owned factories and government-funded railway projects. I'd recommend looking at the Armchair Historian's Life in Nazi Germany video, especially around the 5 to 6 minute mark.

[Sanghyeok]

The right makes Biden sound really cool by labeling him an anarchist and a radical communist when he's really just another status quo war criminal.

Especially when it would be nice if he actually was an anarchist