Free Speech:「Yes or No」

[The Reformed American Republic]

Freedom of speech ends when it's shouting fire in a crowded theater. That includes statements dehumanizing another demographic to the point we treat a black kid with a toy gun differently than a white kid shooting up a church in how long they get to breathe

That seems like a vaguer standard than European hate speech laws.

[Loben III]

Paranoia gets nobody anywhere if I’m honest.

No, paranoia is what gets poor people to applaud the death of communists and other leftists groups, choosing the side of rabid capitalists like Krupp and IG Farben over their own interests.

Blindness, not seeing the things happening directly in front of you because you are white and fascism would help you... Yeah, that doesn't help either.

"How can this country be fascist? I am white and they don't want me dead!" is the current defence, and its a bad one.

Maybe they had more to lose if the leftists gained power.

[Chan Island]

What kind of question is that? Yes, obviously.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

You are so much mistaken, which is exactly what we were talking about. Trump is more moderate than literal genocide, but only because he needs to be to win voters. The Republican party, under his leadership, has changed into a party of extremists, enablers and collaborators, desperately trying to defend abuses of power and unlawful acts. They are only as moderate as the vote requires them to be, and they shift more to the right each time they succesfully disenfranchise another group.

Fascism is no longer an ideology of skinheads in basements, and it never really was. The US has been on the brink of fascism many times since the second world war. It’s not Trump’s moderation keeping the country from being fascist, it’s constant opposition by liberal and leftist groups, which are bit by bit being worn down by a party which controls federal law enforcement.

US fascism will look very differently from German or Italian fascism, and people won’t recognise it as fascism because it is not porpagated as fascism, but as Americanism.

I think that's also because you leftists define "fascism" very broadly.

Well, yeah, more broadly than fascists, anyway. Fascism isn't just anti-Jewish, swastika-wielding German militarism. It's not only fascism when it's in an SS uniform. US fascism would be unrecognisable for people trying to find fascists wearing SS uniforms and shouting about the superiority of the American race. American fascism would be deeply Christian, deeply caring about the flag, about veterans, to the detriment of leftist groups trying to unite working power. American fascism would glorify America's violent past and seek to emulate it, and be very violent towards non-whites. It would be very concerned about the well-being of rich Christian families to the detriment of anyone else, and it would have to pay lip service to democracy while subverting all institutions important to it. More importantly, American fascism would be deeply capitalistic.

What else would American fascism look like if not this?

[Kiu Ghesik]

Freedom of speech ends when it's shouting fire in a crowded theater. That includes statements dehumanizing another demographic to the point we treat a black kid with a toy gun differently than a white kid shooting up a church in how long they get to breathe

That seems like a vaguer standard than European hate speech laws.

That's the problem with regulating speech, IMO. You're either vague enough to justify practically anything or you're so anally focused on details that the legislation becomes impotent.

[Kowani]

Freedom of speech ends when it's shouting fire in a crowded theater. That includes statements dehumanizing another demographic to the point we treat a black kid with a toy gun differently than a white kid shooting up a church in how long they get to breathe

That seems like a vaguer standard than European hate speech laws.

Yet perhaps more useful.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

No, paranoia is what gets poor people to applaud the death of communists and other leftists groups, choosing the side of rabid capitalists like Krupp and IG Farben over their own interests.

Blindness, not seeing the things happening directly in front of you because you are white and fascism would help you... Yeah, that doesn't help either.

"How can this country be fascist? I am white and they don't want me dead!" is the current defence, and its a bad one.

Maybe they had more to lose if the leftists gained power.

That would be unsupported by any historical fact. Historical research shows that wealth inequality and median income grows when left-wing parties are in power. You are trying to re-invent the wheel pretending it's the 1890s, while we have a wealth of historical data to look back to. And it shows that right wing governments fuck poor people hard.

[Atheris]

I think that's also because you leftists define "fascism" very broadly.

Well, yeah, more broadly than fascists, anyway. Fascism isn't just anti-Jewish, swastika-wielding German militarism. It's not only fascism when it's in an SS uniform. US fascism would be unrecognisable for people trying to find fascists wearing SS uniforms and shouting about the superiority of the American race. American fascism would be deeply Christian, deeply caring about the flag, about veterans, to the detriment of leftist groups trying to unite working power. American fascism would glorify America's violent past and seek to emulate it, and be very violent towards non-whites. It would be very concerned about the well-being of rich Christian families to the detriment of anyone else, and it would have to pay lip service to democracy while subverting all institutions important to it. More importantly, American fascism would be deeply capitalistic.

What else would American fascism look like if not this?

I believe actually following the definition of fascism would be a step.

You know, state corporatism, totalitarianism, anti-socialism, racism, extreme nationalism, anti-democracy, anti-capitalism, anti-Westernism, anti-communism, masculinity, and the complete and utter destruction of opposition.

[The Reformed American Republic]

That seems like a vaguer standard than European hate speech laws.

Yet perhaps more useful.

I don't. I have some socially conservative views, and I should be allowed to speak. I'm anti-immigration, some find that "bigoted," but that does not mean I should be silenced.

Standards like that will ding a lot more than a klansman or other violent racists.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Well, yeah, more broadly than fascists, anyway. Fascism isn't just anti-Jewish, swastika-wielding German militarism. It's not only fascism when it's in an SS uniform. US fascism would be unrecognisable for people trying to find fascists wearing SS uniforms and shouting about the superiority of the American race. American fascism would be deeply Christian, deeply caring about the flag, about veterans, to the detriment of leftist groups trying to unite working power. American fascism would glorify America's violent past and seek to emulate it, and be very violent towards non-whites. It would be very concerned about the well-being of rich Christian families to the detriment of anyone else, and it would have to pay lip service to democracy while subverting all institutions important to it. More importantly, American fascism would be deeply capitalistic.

What else would American fascism look like if not this?

I believe actually following the definition of fascism would be a step.

You know, state corporatism, totalitarianism, anti-socialism, racism, extreme nationalism, anti-democracy, anti-capitalism, anti-Westernism, anti-communism, masculinity, and the complete and utter destruction of opposition.

As exemplified by the things I mentioned, yes. The things I described are examples of American nationalism, racism, and corporatism. And Trump is hard at work supressing any dissent.

Fascism is not anti-capitalistic, though. What fascist regime in history has ever been anti-capitalistic? Italy, Germany and Chile collaborated with capitalists. Germany raided the whole continent for German companies. If you think fascism is anti-capitalistic, you have not been paying attention.

What even is an anti-Westernism?

[The Reformed American Republic]

Corporatism and corporatocracy are two different things. One involves state controlled professional organizations called "corporations," and the other gives capitalist corporations like Burger King free reign.

We have corporatocracy, a byproduct of neoliberalism.

[Loben III]

Maybe they had more to lose if the leftists gained power.

That would be unsupported by any historical fact. Historical research shows that wealth inequality and median income grows when left-wing parties are in power. You are trying to re-invent the wheel pretending it's the 1890s, while we have a wealth of historical data to look back to. And it shows that right wing governments fuck poor people hard.

Right and the Bolsheviks were a complete improvement for all involved in Russia, the maoists and China and those fucktards in Eastern Europe after the 2nd world war. But seeing as how none of that pertains to free speech, you’re just blowing hot air.

[The Emerald Legion]

If I have to hear one more person spouting bullshit about the free marketplace of ideas, I will flip a table.
It doesn’t exist. It’s an ahistorical fiction which only serves to give cover to ideas which seek to subvert the public square and shut down free speech as a whole.

... You mean like you're doing right now? "Authoritarians will use their free speech to restrict speech using foul sorcery. Therefore we must preemptively restrict speech so they can't do it first."

Or maybe we could just make free speech a cornerstone and not fucking attack it constantly.

[Kiu Ghesik]

I believe actually following the definition of fascism would be a step.

You know, state corporatism, totalitarianism, anti-socialism, racism, extreme nationalism, anti-democracy, anti-capitalism, anti-Westernism, anti-communism, masculinity, and the complete and utter destruction of opposition.

As exemplified by the things I mentioned, yes. The things I described are examples of American nationalism, racism, and corporatism. And Trump is hard at work supressing any dissent.

Fascism is not anti-capitalistic, though. What fascist regime in history has ever been anti-capitalistic? Italy, Germany and Chile collaborated with capitalists. Germany raided the whole continent for German companies. If you think fascism is anti-capitalistic, you have not been paying attention.

What even is an anti-Westernism?

Fascism is more state capitalism IMO, given how it permits the ownership private property but directs the usage of that property towards the goals of the state.

[Empirical Switzerland]

If I have to hear one more person spouting bullshit about the free marketplace of ideas, I will flip a table.
It doesn’t exist. It’s an ahistorical fiction which only serves to give cover to ideas which seek to subvert the public square and shut down free speech as a whole.

... You mean like you're doing right now? "Authoritarians will use their free speech to restrict speech using foul sorcery. Therefore we must preemptively restrict speech so they can't do it first."

Or maybe we could just make free speech a cornerstone and not fucking attack it constantly.

XD, I like your reasoning!

[Nuroblav]

Yes. I'm close to being a absolutist on this issue, although there might be an area or two that are a bit more complex than 'should be completely legal' (I don't mean general racism, sexism, homophobia etc, rather calls to violence. Not sure about specifics, but as I said it's a grey area). Otherwise, go ahead and say it.

[Kowani]

Yet perhaps more useful.

I don't. I have some socially conservative views, and I should be allowed to speak. I'm anti-immigration, some find that "bigoted," but that does not mean I should be silenced.

Well, yeah. Being anti-immigration is a nonsense position. Being anti-immigrant on the basis of social conservatism requires either ignorance of the social beliefs of immigrants or belief that their assimilation is impossible.

Standards like that will ding a lot more than a klansman or other violent racists.

That's not actually a downside.

[Kowani]

If I have to hear one more person spouting bullshit about the free marketplace of ideas, I will flip a table.
It doesn’t exist. It’s an ahistorical fiction which only serves to give cover to ideas which seek to subvert the public square and shut down free speech as a whole.

... You mean like you're doing right now? "Authoritarians will use their free speech to restrict speech using foul sorcery. Therefore we must preemptively restrict speech so they can't do it first."

No. Fascists don't care about free speech so they can mass-murder undesirables. I want to restrict free speech so that does not come to pass. There is a substantial difference between the two. The ends are far greater than the means.

Or maybe we could just make free speech a cornerstone and not fucking attack it constantly.

Sounds good, doesn't work.

[Neuer Deutsches Reich]

And I see people exaggerate the threat too. We here in America are not on the verge of a fascist takeover. Why fascists took power in Germany and Italy was due to very specific circumstances. We have always had fascist upstarts; the alt-right is nothing new and Trump is more moderate than them.

You are so much mistaken, which is exactly what we were talking about. Trump is more moderate than literal genocide, but only because he needs to be to win voters. The Republican party, under his leadership, has changed into a party of extremists, enablers and collaborators, desperately trying to defend abuses of power and unlawful acts. They are only as moderate as the vote requires them to be, and they shift more to the right each time they succesfully disenfranchise another group.

Fascism is no longer an ideology of skinheads in basements, and it never really was. The US has been on the brink of fascism many times since the second world war. It’s not Trump’s moderation keeping the country from being fascist, it’s constant opposition by liberal and leftist groups, which are bit by bit being worn down by a party which controls federal law enforcement.

US fascism will look very differently from German or Italian fascism, and people won’t recognise it as fascism because it is not porpagated as fascism, but as Americanism.

My god my ears hurt. Summary: vote Biden, trump fascist. Trump is nowhere extreme nor is the Republican Party. If they are then the liberals and the left you say are preventing a fascist takeover are anarchists and communists, but that wouldn’t be far off. Fascism is not what the USA should fear most and loving your country isn’t fascist or bad, it should be encouraged .

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

That would be unsupported by any historical fact. Historical research shows that wealth inequality and median income grows when left-wing parties are in power. You are trying to re-invent the wheel pretending it's the 1890s, while we have a wealth of historical data to look back to. And it shows that right wing governments fuck poor people hard.

Right and the Bolsheviks were a complete improvement for all involved in Russia, the maoists and China and those fucktards in Eastern Europe after the 2nd world war. But seeing as how none of that pertains to free speech, you’re just blowing hot air.

I disagree with Bolsheviks of Maoists, and have no patience for tanky scum. As you can read, I have no love for anti-democratic ideologies of any kind, so Bolsheviks, Stalinists and Maoists can fuck right off for all I care. If their speech is anti-democratic, I don’t want to hear it.

But fo the average person, economic life did improve under these systems. But of course, I was talking about social democrats and other left-wing groups, as well as unions. But it seems to be either libertarian or stalinist in your book.

If I have to hear one more person spouting bullshit about the free marketplace of ideas, I will flip a table.
It doesn’t exist. It’s an ahistorical fiction which only serves to give cover to ideas which seek to subvert the public square and shut down free speech as a whole.

... You mean like you're doing right now? "Authoritarians will use their free speech to restrict speech using foul sorcery. Therefore we must preemptively restrict speech so they can't do it first."

Or maybe we could just make free speech a cornerstone and not fucking attack it constantly.

Fascist speech is both an attack on free speech and an attack on democratic values. Banning fascist speech is neither. It’s not dark magic, it’s probable historical fact that fascists do not engage in debate, only in propaganda.

“It’s only free speech if we allow ourselves to be destroyed by it!” Is a shit argument.

[Prozitia]

Even though I'm for free speech, at this point, "free speech" has become a right-wing buzzword to mean that agitating violence against an innocent group of people is a human liberty because you're "not doing physical harm". Ironically, when leftists advocate for class warfare, they call it terrorism.

[Loben III]

Right and the Bolsheviks were a complete improvement for all involved in Russia, the maoists and China and those fucktards in Eastern Europe after the 2nd world war. But seeing as how none of that pertains to free speech, you’re just blowing hot air.

I disagree with Bolsheviks of Maoists, and have no patience for tanky scum. As you can read, I have no love for anti-democratic ideologies of any kind, so Bolsheviks, Stalinists and Maoists can fuck right off for all I care. If their speech is anti-democratic, I don’t want to hear it.

But fo the average person, economic life did improve under these systems. But of course, I was talking about social democrats and other left-wing groups, as well as unions. But it seems to be either libertarian or stalinist in your book.

... You mean like you're doing right now? "Authoritarians will use their free speech to restrict speech using foul sorcery. Therefore we must preemptively restrict speech so they can't do it first."

Or maybe we could just make free speech a cornerstone and not fucking attack it constantly.

Fascist speech is both an attack on free speech and an attack on democratic values. Banning fascist speech is neither. It’s not dark magic, it’s probable historical fact that fascists do not engage in debate, only in propaganda.

“It’s only free speech if we allow ourselves to be destroyed by it!” Is a shit argument.

Saying that we should adopt your shitty styles of speech laws is also a shit argument.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

You are so much mistaken, which is exactly what we were talking about. Trump is more moderate than literal genocide, but only because he needs to be to win voters. The Republican party, under his leadership, has changed into a party of extremists, enablers and collaborators, desperately trying to defend abuses of power and unlawful acts. They are only as moderate as the vote requires them to be, and they shift more to the right each time they succesfully disenfranchise another group.

Fascism is no longer an ideology of skinheads in basements, and it never really was. The US has been on the brink of fascism many times since the second world war. It’s not Trump’s moderation keeping the country from being fascist, it’s constant opposition by liberal and leftist groups, which are bit by bit being worn down by a party which controls federal law enforcement.

US fascism will look very differently from German or Italian fascism, and people won’t recognise it as fascism because it is not porpagated as fascism, but as Americanism.

My god my ears hurt. Summary: vote Biden, trump fascist. Trump is nowhere extreme nor is the Republican Party. If they are then the liberals and the left you say are preventing a fascist takeover are anarchists and communists, but that wouldn’t be far off. Fascism is not what the USA should fear most and loving your country isn’t fascist or bad, it should be encouraged .

I dislike Biden, but he’s better than Trump.

The fact that Trump is not too extreme for you says more about you than about Trump, tbh. If loving your country leads to the things Trump is doing, then yeah, it’s fascistm and it’s bad.

The fact you don’t fear fascism is probably because you wouldn’t suffer under it. At first.

[An-Tanwir]

You are so much mistaken, which is exactly what we were talking about. Trump is more moderate than literal genocide, but only because he needs to be to win voters. The Republican party, under his leadership, has changed into a party of extremists, enablers and collaborators, desperately trying to defend abuses of power and unlawful acts. They are only as moderate as the vote requires them to be, and they shift more to the right each time they succesfully disenfranchise another group.

Fascism is no longer an ideology of skinheads in basements, and it never really was. The US has been on the brink of fascism many times since the second world war. It’s not Trump’s moderation keeping the country from being fascist, it’s constant opposition by liberal and leftist groups, which are bit by bit being worn down by a party which controls federal law enforcement.

US fascism will look very differently from German or Italian fascism, and people won’t recognise it as fascism because it is not porpagated as fascism, but as Americanism.

I think that's also because you leftists define "fascism" very broadly.

This, The German Communist Party declared itself the only "non-fascist" party back in the 30s.

There's also Mao declaring that "liberalism is when you argue in bad faith."

[Blueflarst]

Either you like free speech with all the consequences or you do not
I stand for free speech as information sharing is primordial for the transhumanism even in an authoritarian model people should be able to talk anything