To be right or to be happy?

[Neanderthaland]

To lie to someone to preserve their happiness is to infantilize them. It is to reject their dignity, reason, and responsibility, because you think you know better than they do. You may think you're doing them a favor. You're actually belittling them. It shows contempt for them. I won't say there's never any reason to do this, but just know that it's a very disrespectful thing to do. And if they hate you for it when they find out, they have every right to.


To lie to yourself to preserve your happiness, is to infantilize yourself. It is to reject all claim to dignity, reason, and responsibility, and hold yourself in contempt. There is a reason why cults attempt to break you down before they indoctrinate you. To lie to yourself is to be broken.

What do you think should be done about actual children?

Generally I'm in favor of not lying to children. It's very easy to abuse children's tendency to believe whatever an adult tells them. And there's a long history of adults taking advantage of this fact to abuse children. If you have to do it, you better have a good goddamn reason.

[Feline Goetland]

It is better to be a safely deluded but genuinely whimsical, happy-go-lucky fellow with a true heartfelt smile on their face at all times... then to be a grim-faced, “YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH!” person unnecessarily aware of the true horror of things

Truth doesn’t matter

Safety and happiness are what counts. Now if you need to know a few truths to be safe, then that’s fine. However, the more you know, the less you can be protected from depressing truths.

Ah yes, you think Brave New World is an instruction manual.

The Brave New World already exists. It is called “Hong Kong” and IM is enjoying it.

[Feline Goetland]

What do you think should be done about actual children?

Generally I'm in favor of not lying to children. It's very easy to abuse children's tendency to believe whatever an adult tells them. And there's a long history of adults taking advantage of this fact to abuse children. If you have to do it, you better have a good goddamn reason.

Yup. Power corrupts. Many adults do enjoy abusing children because they can get away with it..

[SatoSere]

Ah yes, you think Brave New World is an instruction manual.

I love the show

Harry Lloyd KILLED it as the Alpha, he was so believable

Sure, it was a good show. Doesn't mean that it would be a good society to live in, though. Also, I just can't stand those people who are blissfully ignorant. They're just... argh I probably have an irrational hate for them

[Bombadil]

It is better to be a safely deluded but genuinely whimsical, happy-go-lucky fellow with a true heartfelt smile on their face at all times... then to be a grim-faced, “YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH!” person unnecessarily aware of the true horror of things

Truth doesn’t matter

Safety and happiness are what counts. Now if you need to know a few truths to be safe, then that’s fine. However, the more you know, the less you can be protected from depressing truths.

I agree with this sentiment in general and would extend it further.

Truth is utilitarian. If a claimed 'truth' in relation to physical reality does not lead to some form of measurable or reproducible result, it is not a useful 'truth'. In the same way, if a claimed 'truth' in relation to sociological reality does not lead to measurable results, it is not a useful 'truth'.

For this poster, safety and happiness is of utmost concern. Therefore, truths are important to them insofar as these truths contribute to the ultimate goal of safety and happiness.

There are infinite truths in an infinite universe; we are finite beings. As such, any claim to universality must necessary tend towards the greatest possible degree of arrogance. The only way for a finite being to claim universality would be to shrink their universe, so those who are insistent on pushing a universal truth are, to me, no more than solipsists of a particularly extroverted variety.

Of course, it is still possible to admit that one's truths are not universal, but extrapolate that it is, based on the limited information available. In this case, it is important to clearly define the constraints and limitaitons, and maintain a strictly evidence-based approach in the course of growing one's sense of reality.

That's a dangerous road to take, where it gets into dangerous territory of what constitutes the safety and happiness of society in general. Truth is absolute, 'safety' and 'happiness' are not and in fact those societies where 'safety' is touted as paramount are generally those where the truth is most distorted.

[Purpelia]

The problem with happiness born from lies is that the truth has a nasty habit of existing whether you believe in it or not. And sooner or later your happy makebelief reality is going to end up crashing headlong into it face first. And when that inevitably happens your happiness is going to come crashing down in a way that is much worse than if you just accepted reality to begin with. Because not only does your happy life go away but everything you did up until that point turns out to have been a mistake. Suddenly you have to face not just being unhappy but having wasted your entire life. And that's a horrifying thought to say the least.

That's why you see people like religious fundamentalists going through insane contortions to stave off reality. They know that if they falter in their belief for just one moment and accept the world as it is their lives are going to be uprooted forever. Everything they lived for their entire existence is going to end up being a horrible mistake. And that is why they desperately want and need god to be real. And why they fight so hard to convince others and through that them self that he is. Anything else would be life destroying. It's a fate that is literally so bad that people choose to die rather than accept it.

[Nouveau Yathrib]

Nice flag Geneviev

I voted for "Happy" because I don't think it would be ethical to tell Person B their religion is false. Not because I think we should suppress the truth to keep people/society happy (which I very much disagree with).

[Purpelia]

Nice flag Geneviev

I voted for "Happy" because I don't think it would be ethical to tell Person B their religion is false. Not because I think we should suppress the truth to keep people/society happy (which I very much disagree with).

Yea, that's a thorny question. On one hand the person is setting them self up for an inevitable horrible crash. And the longer he stays that way the worse the crash is going to get. So in a way snapping them out of it now is a kindness. On the other do we really want to be the one to set that off? I mean... you are doing them harm newer the less. So what is good in such a situation? Is it good to break someones arm to save their neck later on?

[Infected Mushroom]

I’d prioritize Safety and Happiness.

Truth in and of itself is irrelevant except where it occasionally intersects with either of the above highest goods.

The best society is the one where everyone is Happiest and Safest. What they know or don’t know’s not really important except where it directly concerns the above two things.

If unveiling a Truth is only going to cause a long term decrease in Safety and Happiness, then don’t unveil it. Seems simple to me.

Truth is not a societal objective, only Safety and Happiness.

[Feline Goetland]

I’d prioritize Safety and Happiness.

Truth in and of itself is irrelevant except where it occasionally intersects with either of the above highest goods.

The best society is the one where everyone is Happiest and Safest. What they know or don’t know’s not really important except where it directly concerns the above two things.

If unveiling a Truth is only going to cause a long term decrease in Safety and Happiness, then don’t unveil it. Seems simple to me.

Truth is not a societal objective, only Safety and Happiness.

Falsehoods can cause actual social harm for example by lowering the level of scientific research so your claims don’t hold.

[Purpelia]

I’d prioritize Safety and Happiness.

Truth in and of itself is irrelevant except where it occasionally intersects with either of the above highest goods.

The best society is the one where everyone is Happiest and Safest. What they know or don’t know’s not really important except where it directly concerns the above two things.

If unveiling a Truth is only going to cause a long term decrease in Safety and Happiness, then don’t unveil it. Seems simple to me.

Truth is not a societal objective, only Safety and Happiness.

There is one obvious flaw in that logic. If others have such power over you that they can decide what is real or not for you than why would they do so in your favor rather than their own? You have given them all the power they need to abuse you and use you and given away any chance you have of even knowing they are doing it until its too late to do anything about it.

[SatoSere]

I’d prioritize Safety and Happiness.

Truth in and of itself is irrelevant except where it occasionally intersects with either of the above highest goods.

The best society is the one where everyone is Happiest and Safest. What they know or don’t know’s not really important except where it directly concerns the above two things.

If unveiling a Truth is only going to cause a long term decrease in Safety and Happiness, then don’t unveil it. Seems simple to me.

Truth is not a societal objective, only Safety and Happiness.

So, what you're saying is we should cover up global warming or other crisis for happiness? Really? Happiness is ephemeral, truth is eternal.

[Infected Mushroom]

I’d prioritize Safety and Happiness.

Truth in and of itself is irrelevant except where it occasionally intersects with either of the above highest goods.

The best society is the one where everyone is Happiest and Safest. What they know or don’t know’s not really important except where it directly concerns the above two things.

If unveiling a Truth is only going to cause a long term decrease in Safety and Happiness, then don’t unveil it. Seems simple to me.

Truth is not a societal objective, only Safety and Happiness.

Falsehoods can cause actual social harm for example by lowering the level of scientific research so your claims don’t hold.

Only to the extent that they cause a decrease in Happiness and Safety In the long term

You need some balance of the three but if you’re going to sacrifice one, it’s the Truth (since it’s only valuable for maximizing the other two)

We can deal with an ignorant society... but not an unsafe and unhappy one

[Infected Mushroom]

I’d prioritize Safety and Happiness.

Truth in and of itself is irrelevant except where it occasionally intersects with either of the above highest goods.

The best society is the one where everyone is Happiest and Safest. What they know or don’t know’s not really important except where it directly concerns the above two things.

If unveiling a Truth is only going to cause a long term decrease in Safety and Happiness, then don’t unveil it. Seems simple to me.

Truth is not a societal objective, only Safety and Happiness.

So, what you're saying is we should cover up global warming or other crisis for happiness? Really? Happiness is ephemeral, truth is eternal.

Downplaying global warming could affect Safety... if it didn’t, it wouldn’t be an issue

[Feline Goetland]

Falsehoods can cause actual social harm for example by lowering the level of scientific research so your claims don’t hold.

Only to the extent that they cause a decrease in Happiness and Safety In the long term

You need some balance of the three but if you’re going to sacrifice one, it’s the Truth (since it’s only valuable for maximizing the other two)

We can deal with an ignorant society... but not an unsafe and unhappy one

I disagree. All widely believed falsehoods cause social harm.

[SatoSere]

So, what you're saying is we should cover up global warming or other crisis for happiness? Really? Happiness is ephemeral, truth is eternal.

Downplaying global warming could affect Safety... if it didn’t, it wouldn’t be an issue

Fair point, what would be an example of a truth that would undermine safety and happiness?

[SatoSere]

Only to the extent that they cause a decrease in Happiness and Safety In the long term

You need some balance of the three but if you’re going to sacrifice one, it’s the Truth (since it’s only valuable for maximizing the other two)

We can deal with an ignorant society... but not an unsafe and unhappy one

I disagree. All widely believed falsehoods cause social harm.

I agree with Goetland here.

[Bombadil]

I’d prioritize Safety and Happiness.

Truth in and of itself is irrelevant except where it occasionally intersects with either of the above highest goods.

The best society is the one where everyone is Happiest and Safest. What they know or don’t know’s not really important except where it directly concerns the above two things.

If unveiling a Truth is only going to cause a long term decrease in Safety and Happiness, then don’t unveil it. Seems simple to me.

Truth is not a societal objective, only Safety and Happiness.

So, what you're saying is we should cover up global warming or other crisis for happiness? Really? Happiness is ephemeral, truth is eternal.

..as well as cover up legitimate concerns and unhappiness through clamping down on dissent and free speech. If society won't be happy we'll create the illusion and pretend it is.

[Feline Goetland]

Downplaying global warming could affect Safety... if it didn’t, it wouldn’t be an issue

Fair point, what would be an example of a truth that would undermine safety and happiness?

China sucks?

[SatoSere]

Fair point, what would be an example of a truth that would undermine safety and happiness?

China sucks?

That would do jackshit towards safety and happiness, and this truth is already common knowledge. In most cases the truth would have a small impact on safety and happiness or be beneficial towards them. Truth above happiness.

[Kowani]

Being right makes me happy.

[SatoSere]

Being right makes me happy.

Based.

[Radiatia]

When I consider the ratio of how often I'm right about things versus how I often I experience happiness, I would say I'm pretty solidly on the side that says being right is more important than being happy.

[Punished UMN]

This is called in ethics the problem of false happiness (i.e. happiness based on false belief), and is one of the major issues with ethical hedonism, in that ethical hedonism doesn't really have a way to distinguish false happiness and true happiness in ethical terms, and as a result, this can be used to justify behavior towards others that our considered judgements tend to regard as abhorrent.

[Page]

To lie to someone to preserve their happiness is to infantilize them. It is to reject their dignity, reason, and responsibility, because you think you know better than they do. You may think you're doing them a favor. You're actually belittling them. It shows contempt for them. I won't say there's never any reason to do this, but just know that it's a very disrespectful thing to do. And if they hate you for it when they find out, they have every right to.


To lie to yourself to preserve your happiness, is to infantilize yourself. It is to reject all claim to dignity, reason, and responsibility, and hold yourself in contempt. There is a reason why cults attempt to break you down before they indoctrinate you. To lie to yourself is to be broken.

What do you think should be done about actual children?

Don't lie to kids about anything. Everything can be explained in an age appropriate way.