Should the State of Washington be renamed?

[Insaanistan]

Muhammad (pbuh):
Against slavery
Freed the slaves in his life time
Bought slaves and immediately freed them without working them
Encouraged slave owners to set them free and made it very hard to own a slave

Washington:
Freed his slaves after he died
Bought and sold slaves throughout his life
Never made any real effort to end slavery

“We are not the same h-”

"It was not surprising that Muhammed, who accepted the existing sociopolitical order, looked upon slavery as part of the natural order of things. His approach to what was already an age-old institution was reformist and not revolutionary. The Prophet had not in mind to bring about the abolition of slavery. [...] [B]y lending the moral authority of Islam to slavery, Muhammed assured its legitimacy. Thus, in lightening the fetter, he riveted it ever more firmly in place."
Gordon, M. (1989). Slavery in the Arab World (1st ed.), p. 19. New Amsterdam Books, NY.

“I quoted one outdated book on Muhammad! Must be an expert on his views!”

[Neanderthaland]

"It was not surprising that Muhammed, who accepted the existing sociopolitical order, looked upon slavery as part of the natural order of things. His approach to what was already an age-old institution was reformist and not revolutionary. The Prophet had not in mind to bring about the abolition of slavery. [...] [B]y lending the moral authority of Islam to slavery, Muhammed assured its legitimacy. Thus, in lightening the fetter, he riveted it ever more firmly in place."
Gordon, M. (1989). Slavery in the Arab World (1st ed.), p. 19. New Amsterdam Books, NY.

“I quoted one outdated book on Muhammad! Must be an expert on his views!”

I mean, they have an actual source. You have baseless mockery.

But this really isn't the topic of the thread.

[Pope Saint Peter the Apostle]

"It was not surprising that Muhammed, who accepted the existing sociopolitical order, looked upon slavery as part of the natural order of things. His approach to what was already an age-old institution was reformist and not revolutionary. The Prophet had not in mind to bring about the abolition of slavery. [...] [B]y lending the moral authority of Islam to slavery, Muhammed assured its legitimacy. Thus, in lightening the fetter, he riveted it ever more firmly in place."
Gordon, M. (1989). Slavery in the Arab World (1st ed.), p. 19. New Amsterdam Books, NY.

“I quoted one outdated book on Muhammad! Must be an expert on his views!”

It doesn't work like that. You can't dismiss without justification (which calling something "outdated" without further examination is not) any evidence you don't like, while not presenting any evidence for your own POV.

But here are a few additional sources:
Hunwick, J. O., & Powell, E. T. (2002). The African Diaspora in the Mediterranean Lands of Islam. Macmillan Publishers.
Risso, P. A. (1995). Merchants And Faith: Muslim Commerce And Culture In The Indian Ocean (New Perspectives on Asian History) (1st ed.). Westview Press.
Stark, R. (2003). For the Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-Hunts, and the End of Slavery. Princeton University Press.

[Kowani]

“I quoted one outdated book on Muhammad! Must be an expert on his views!”

It doesn't work like that. You can't dismiss without justification (which calling something "outdated" without further examination is not) any evidence you don't like, while not presenting any evidence for your own POV.

But here are a few additional sources:
Hunwick, J. O., & Powell, E. T. (2002). The African Diaspora in the Mediterranean Lands of Islam. Macmillan Publishers.
Risso, P. A. (1995). Merchants And Faith: Muslim Commerce And Culture In The Indian Ocean (New Perspectives on Asian History) (1st ed.). Westview Press.
Stark, R. (2003). For the Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-Hunts, and the End of Slavery. Princeton University Press.

Stats: Wrekt

[Insaanistan]

“I quoted one outdated book on Muhammad! Must be an expert on his views!”

It doesn't work like that. You can't dismiss without justification (which calling something "outdated" without further examination is not) any evidence you don't like, while not presenting any evidence for your own POV.

But here are a few additional sources:
Hunwick, J. O., & Powell, E. T. (2002). The African Diaspora in the Mediterranean Lands of Islam. Macmillan Publishers.
Risso, P. A. (1995). Merchants And Faith: Muslim Commerce And Culture In The Indian Ocean (New Perspectives on Asian History) (1st ed.). Westview Press.
Stark, R. (2003). For the Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-Hunts, and the End of Slavery. Princeton University Press.

I have sources as well:
http://home.insightbb.com/~adamwatson/s ... avery.html
https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/opini ... can-slaves
http://muslimmirror.com/eng/islam-aboli ... -it-alive/
https://patch.com/michigan/rochester/slavery-islam
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thecnnfree ... w-say/amp/

Also, it seems at least one of your sources is referencing slavery in Islamic empires in general, which I never denied, but it is a historical fact that would be stupid to deny, especially since it is one of two main causes of my tribe’s diaspora across North Africa and Western Asia. Enjoy my sources. Hopefully, you will learn something. Regardless if you believe me and my sources or not, may peace be upon you and the mercy of God and his mercy!

[Insaanistan]

It doesn't work like that. You can't dismiss without justification (which calling something "outdated" without further examination is not) any evidence you don't like, while not presenting any evidence for your own POV.

But here are a few additional sources:
Hunwick, J. O., & Powell, E. T. (2002). The African Diaspora in the Mediterranean Lands of Islam. Macmillan Publishers.
Risso, P. A. (1995). Merchants And Faith: Muslim Commerce And Culture In The Indian Ocean (New Perspectives on Asian History) (1st ed.). Westview Press.
Stark, R. (2003). For the Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-Hunts, and the End of Slavery. Princeton University Press.

Stats: Wrekt

No,no. Check again, my friend.

[Paddy O Fernature]

Stats: Wrekt

No,no. Check again, my friend.

His sources are better.

[Insaanistan]

No,no. Check again, my friend.

His sources are better.

Why? Because they say something against Muhammad (pbuh).

[Miternet]

Why?

Because it’s dumb. Judging people in the past on the morals of today is just stupid. Literally nobody was pro gay in the 1700s. Lincoln, the guy who freed the slaves, was a fucking racist who wanted to ship all the blacks to Africa.

Judging anyone in the past by today’s standards is a really stupid thing to do

Slavery was wrong then and it's wrong now.

[Paddy O Fernature]

His sources are better.

Why? Because they say something against Muhammad (pbuh).

No, because the don't read like an advertisement blog trying to justify past actions.

[Insaanistan]

Because it’s dumb. Judging people in the past on the morals of today is just stupid. Literally nobody was pro gay in the 1700s. Lincoln, the guy who freed the slaves, was a fucking racist who wanted to ship all the blacks to Africa.

Judging anyone in the past by today’s standards is a really stupid thing to do

Slavery was wrong then and it's wrong now.

If I’m not mistaken, there were Scandinavian empires and kingdoms that outlawed slavery in the 11th and 12th centuries.

[Insaanistan]

Why? Because they say something against Muhammad (pbuh).

No, because the don't read like an advertisement blog trying to justify past actions.

Not advertisement blogs, but anyway, did you even think about what you read, or did you just gloss over them and see “Prophet Muhammad” “Islam” “slaves” “supported” “owned” and think “Ahah! Trying to justify Muhammad owning slaves”, like no my friend, they literally talk about him freeing all his wives slaves and the few ones he ever even owned well before prophethood, encouraged his followers to free slaves, freed many others’ slaves himself, made hitting a slave a crime that must be punished by freeing the slave immediately, then about how Islam outlawed slave raids, making prisoners-of-war slaves, treating the slaves you have like they were beneath you, and then about how Islam highly encouraged marrying or freeing female slaves rather than keeping them enslaved, made it mandatory to engage in a contract of manumission with all slaves (mukataba), made one able to be forgiven for killing someone accidentally by freeing a slave, and just overall making freeing slaves a way to absolve sins. When the leader of Madina (then Yathrib), who was pretending to be Muslim, heard of Muhammad (pbuh) arriving in the city, he told his slave, “Run and hide: I may be forced to free you to show I am a believer”. When Muhammad (pbuh) first began preaching in Makkah, he saw Umaiyah’s slave Bilal ibn Rabah being tortured while saying “One God! There’s only one God!”, he, out of money he would normally use to free slaves (Muhammad was so poor, once when Ūmar after his conversion to Islam saw Muhammad pbuh’s house, he weeped at how poor simply Muhammad pbuh lived), told Abu Bakr to pay for Bilal’s freedom. Bilal would eventually become the first muadhin/muezzin, meaning the first person tasked with calling the adhan (call to prayer), as well as a close companion of the Prophet (pbuh) and a strategist in battle. But, it’s talking about the “Prophet of Izlam”, so all that doesn’t count and is just justifying slavery, huh?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Bit of overkill, imo. Just think the state was named after George Washington Carver if that strikes your fancy better and be done with it.

[Insaanistan]

Bit of overkill, imo. Just think the state was named after George Washington Carver if that strikes your fancy better and be done with it.

That’ll silence all the “liberals” who want it renamed!

[Pope Saint Peter the Apostle]

No, because the don't read like an advertisement blog trying to justify past actions.

Not advertisement blogs, but anyway, did you even think about what you read, or did you just gloss over them and see “Prophet Muhammad” “Islam” “slaves” “supported” “owned” and think “Ahah! Trying to justify Muhammad owning slaves”, like no my friend, they literally talk about him freeing all his wives slaves and the few ones he ever even owned well before prophethood, encouraged his followers to free slaves, freed many others’ slaves himself, made hitting a slave a crime that must be punished by freeing the slave immediately, then about how Islam outlawed slave raids, making prisoners-of-war slaves, treating the slaves you have like they were beneath you, and then about how Islam highly encouraged marrying or freeing female slaves rather than keeping them enslaved, made it mandatory to engage in a contract of manumission with all slaves (mukataba), made one able to be forgiven for killing someone accidentally by freeing a slave, and just overall making freeing slaves a way to absolve sins. When the leader of Madina (then Yathrib), who was pretending to be Muslim, heard of Muhammad (pbuh) arriving in the city, he told his slave, “Run and hide: I may be forced to free you to show I am a believer”. When Muhammad (pbuh) first began preaching in Makkah, he saw Umaiyah’s slave Bilal ibn Rabah being tortured while saying “One God! There’s only one God!”, he, out of money he would normally use to free slaves (Muhammad was so poor, once when Ūmar after his conversion to Islam saw Muhammad pbuh’s house, he weeped at how poor simply Muhammad pbuh lived), told Abu Bakr to pay for Bilal’s freedom. Bilal would eventually become the first muadhin/muezzin, meaning the first person tasked with calling the adhan (call to prayer), as well as a close companion of the Prophet (pbuh) and a strategist in battle. But, it’s talking about the “Prophet of Izlam”, so all that doesn’t count and is just justifying slavery, huh?

No-one denies that Muhammad's views on slavery were more progressive than the average Arab's view at the time. He indeed sought to reform the institution of slavery, but it is historical revisionism to suggest he opposed slavery and/or sought to abolish it. It's why the source I cited earlier notes: "His approach to what was already an age-old institution was reformist and not revolutionary. The Prophet had not in mind to bring about the abolition of slavery." (emphasis mine)

[Atheris]

Bit of overkill, imo. Just think the state was named after George Washington Carver if that strikes your fancy better and be done with it.

Name it after the person who invented one of the worst condiments in this modern day and age? Ugh. No thanks.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Bit of overkill, imo. Just think the state was named after George Washington Carver if that strikes your fancy better and be done with it.

That’ll silence all the “liberals” who want it renamed!

It was really more tongue in cheek than anything. To be a little serious though, George Washington Carver probably did more for agriculture in the US than anyone. He encouraged crop rotation in order to help the soil replenish and published recipes to encourage the use of the replenishing crops, like sweet potatoes and peanuts. He was called the Black Leonardo (DaVinci) for his way of thinking.

[Insaanistan]

Not advertisement blogs, but anyway, did you even think about what you read, or did you just gloss over them and see “Prophet Muhammad” “Islam” “slaves” “supported” “owned” and think “Ahah! Trying to justify Muhammad owning slaves”, like no my friend, they literally talk about him freeing all his wives slaves and the few ones he ever even owned well before prophethood, encouraged his followers to free slaves, freed many others’ slaves himself, made hitting a slave a crime that must be punished by freeing the slave immediately, then about how Islam outlawed slave raids, making prisoners-of-war slaves, treating the slaves you have like they were beneath you, and then about how Islam highly encouraged marrying or freeing female slaves rather than keeping them enslaved, made it mandatory to engage in a contract of manumission with all slaves (mukataba), made one able to be forgiven for killing someone accidentally by freeing a slave, and just overall making freeing slaves a way to absolve sins. When the leader of Madina (then Yathrib), who was pretending to be Muslim, heard of Muhammad (pbuh) arriving in the city, he told his slave, “Run and hide: I may be forced to free you to show I am a believer”. When Muhammad (pbuh) first began preaching in Makkah, he saw Umaiyah’s slave Bilal ibn Rabah being tortured while saying “One God! There’s only one God!”, he, out of money he would normally use to free slaves (Muhammad was so poor, once when Ūmar after his conversion to Islam saw Muhammad pbuh’s house, he weeped at how poor simply Muhammad pbuh lived), told Abu Bakr to pay for Bilal’s freedom. Bilal would eventually become the first muadhin/muezzin, meaning the first person tasked with calling the adhan (call to prayer), as well as a close companion of the Prophet (pbuh) and a strategist in battle. But, it’s talking about the “Prophet of Izlam”, so all that doesn’t count and is just justifying slavery, huh?

No-one denies that Muhammad's views on slavery were more progressive than the average Arab's view at the time. He indeed sought to reform the institution of slavery, but it is historical revisionism to suggest he opposed slavery and/or sought to abolish it. It's why the source I cited earlier notes: "His approach to what was already an age-old institution was reformist and not revolutionary. The Prophet had not in mind to bring about the abolition of slavery." (emphasis mine)

He definitely opposed slavery. However, I completely understand the viewpoint that he was simply reforming it rather than abolishing it; it’s the claim we was a racist slavery equal to those in the West that I completely abhor. However, one must look at the context of Islam and the Qur’ân. For example, Islam outlaws alcohol, as I’m sure you know. However, it wasn’t always like that. Through stages of verses, the Qur’ân became more and more critical of alcohol drinking before eventually outlawing it completely, because there would be major problems if the first time, Islam said, “All of you, no more alcohol! Now!” People wouldn’t have been able to quit cold turkey. Many Companions of Muhammad (pbuh) would later remark “If Islam had outlawed alcohol at first, none of us would have become Muslim.” The similar thing can be seen with slavery. It at first talked about how the sin of it outweighs material profits, made it harder to own slaves, made treating them poorly outlawed, banned slave raids and making prisoners slaves, made mukataba (contract of manumission, meaning the slave would have to eventually be freed, which could be sped up if someone bought the slave’s freedom) mandatory, and made freeing slaves a way to have one’s sins forgiven. With all this, it’s clear Islam was against slavery, and wished for its end. However, like the alcohol rule, especially after the death of Muhammad (pbuh), many people just did what they wanted. For example, Ibn Battuta reports that when he met some European Muslims who drank, and when he asked why, they claimed the Qur’ân forbid only wine and beers made from only certain types of grain, NOT fermented horse milk, when it was obvious the Qur’ân meant all alcohol. Some of my uncles actually drink alcohol. As for slavery, I have ancestry from Muslim tribes that both enslaved and were enslaved.

[Heloin]

Bit of overkill, imo. Just think the state was named after George Washington Carver if that strikes your fancy better and be done with it.

Name it after the person who invented one of the worst condiments in this modern day and age? Ugh. No thanks.

He didn't invent peanut butter. He's much more important for his real accomplishments that helped American agriculture and poor farmers.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Name it after the person who invented one of the worst condiments in this modern day and age? Ugh. No thanks.

He didn't invent peanut butter. He's much more important for his real accomplishments that helped American agriculture and poor farmers.

Crop rotation and cooking recipes, to name two of his achievements.

[Pope Saint Peter the Apostle]

It doesn't work like that. You can't dismiss without justification (which calling something "outdated" without further examination is not) any evidence you don't like, while not presenting any evidence for your own POV.

But here are a few additional sources:
Hunwick, J. O., & Powell, E. T. (2002). The African Diaspora in the Mediterranean Lands of Islam. Macmillan Publishers.
Risso, P. A. (1995). Merchants And Faith: Muslim Commerce And Culture In The Indian Ocean (New Perspectives on Asian History) (1st ed.). Westview Press.
Stark, R. (2003). For the Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-Hunts, and the End of Slavery. Princeton University Press.

I have sources as well:
http://home.insightbb.com/~adamwatson/s ... avery.html
https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/opini ... can-slaves
http://muslimmirror.com/eng/islam-aboli ... -it-alive/
https://patch.com/michigan/rochester/slavery-islam
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thecnnfree ... w-say/amp/

Also, it seems at least one of your sources is referencing slavery in Islamic empires in general, which I never denied, but it is a historical fact that would be stupid to deny, especially since it is one of two main causes of my tribe’s diaspora across North Africa and Western Asia. Enjoy my sources. Hopefully, you will learn something. Regardless if you believe me and my sources or not, may peace be upon you and the mercy of God and his mercy!

This is probably getting a bit off-topic, so this will be my final post on the matter. As noted above, most of your sources support rather than undermine my position.

The books indeed reference slavery in the Muslim world, but in that context they too examine Muhammad's influence on slavery.

More of a general note: blog posts and opinion pieces are ordinarily less reliable than peer-reviewed articles and published books.

[Insaanistan]

That’ll silence all the “liberals” who want it renamed!

It was really more tongue in cheek than anything. To be a little serious though, George Washington Carver probably did more for agriculture in the US than anyone. He encouraged crop rotation in order to help the soil replenish and published recipes to encourage the use of the replenishing crops, like sweet potatoes and peanuts. He was called the Black Leonardo (DaVinci) for his way of thinking.

My mom actually used to call me “Booker T. [Washington]” and “[George] Washington Carver”, though her Northern Ghanaian accent made it sound like “Booka T.” And “Washitun Cava”.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

It was really more tongue in cheek than anything. To be a little serious though, George Washington Carver probably did more for agriculture in the US than anyone. He encouraged crop rotation in order to help the soil replenish and published recipes to encourage the use of the replenishing crops, like sweet potatoes and peanuts. He was called the Black Leonardo (DaVinci) for his way of thinking.

My mom actually used to call me “Booker T. [Washington]” and “[George] Washington Carver”, though her Northern Ghanaian accent made it sound like “Booka T.” And “Washitun Cava”.

Here’s a list of famous Washingtons: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_(name)

[Paddy O Fernature]

I have sources as well:
http://home.insightbb.com/~adamwatson/s ... avery.html
https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/opini ... can-slaves
http://muslimmirror.com/eng/islam-aboli ... -it-alive/
https://patch.com/michigan/rochester/slavery-islam
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thecnnfree ... w-say/amp/

Also, it seems at least one of your sources is referencing slavery in Islamic empires in general, which I never denied, but it is a historical fact that would be stupid to deny, especially since it is one of two main causes of my tribe’s diaspora across North Africa and Western Asia. Enjoy my sources. Hopefully, you will learn something. Regardless if you believe me and my sources or not, may peace be upon you and the mercy of God and his mercy!

This is probably getting a bit off-topic, so this will be my final post on the matter. As noted above, most of your sources support rather than undermine my position.

The books indeed reference slavery in the Muslim world, but in that context they too examine Muhammad's influence on slavery.

More of a general note: blog posts and opinion pieces are ordinarily less reliable than peer-reviewed articles and published books.

Well said, which was what I was trying to get at originally.

[Untecna]

/bump

Also, no, the State of Washington should not be renamed. Aunt Jemima's picture shouldn't be taken off the syrup bottle. The Redskins shouldn't have had the name changed AND the logo changed. Land O Lakes butter didn't have to get rid of the Native American woman on the packaging. Frankly, even taking down statues of Southern generals and other important Southerners from the Civil War was too much. All we're doing is removing history, culture, and agreements made, and instilling fear and anarchy. Really, must I say more? I mean, for crying out loud, just because a person from the past doesn't meet our societal standards doesn't mean that they were a bad person!