yeah, the romans were pretty racist (not using our current conception of race because they didn't have it but based on their conception they absolutely were)
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by Washington Resistance Army » Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:32 pm
by Neanderthaland » Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:39 pm
by Cordel One » Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:43 pm
by San Lumen » Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:46 pm
by Cordel One » Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:51 pm
San Lumen wrote:Cordel One wrote:Yeah, it was a different sort of slavery but they were still racists. Aren't you a self-described historian?
Yes I am and to call the founding fathers racist scum shows a stunning ignorance on your part. There was no other way to get the constitution passed without the three fifths compromise. If your going to label everyone who owned slaves or held racist beliefs by todays standards you might as well remove every statue erected before 1950.
by San Lumen » Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:54 pm
Cordel One wrote:San Lumen wrote:
Yes I am and to call the founding fathers racist scum shows a stunning ignorance on your part. There was no other way to get the constitution passed without the three fifths compromise. If your going to label everyone who owned slaves or held racist beliefs by todays standards you might as well remove every statue erected before 1950.
Owning slaves does not stop being racist because the vast majority of the colonists were also racist.
by The Federal Government of Iowa » Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:56 pm
by Heloin » Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:57 pm
San Lumen wrote:Cordel One wrote:Yeah, it was a different sort of slavery but they were still racists. Aren't you a self-described historian?
Yes I am and to call the founding fathers racist scum shows a stunning ignorance on your part. There was no other way to get the constitution passed without the three fifths compromise.
If your going to label everyone who owned slaves or held racist beliefs by todays standards you might as well remove every statue erected before 1950.
by Washington Resistance Army » Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:59 pm
Heloin wrote:Every person before the civil rights act was a slave owning racist apparently.
by San Lumen » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:01 pm
Heloin wrote:San Lumen wrote:
Yes I am and to call the founding fathers racist scum shows a stunning ignorance on your part. There was no other way to get the constitution passed without the three fifths compromise.
It's ignorant to say people who held racist beliefs, where racist?If your going to label everyone who owned slaves or held racist beliefs by todays standards you might as well remove every statue erected before 1950.
Every person before the civil rights act was a slave owning racist apparently.
by Cordel One » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:01 pm
San Lumen wrote:Cordel One wrote:Owning slaves does not stop being racist because the vast majority of the colonists were also racist.
How can you call a majority of the colonists racist when that was widely held belief at the time? Its real easy to take current standard and say that person from the past is a racist.
San Lumen wrote: Have you ever read the Lincoln-Douglas debates? Lincoln said some things that would be considered quite racist by today's standards.
by Heloin » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:01 pm
Washington Resistance Army wrote:Heloin wrote:Every person before the civil rights act was a slave owning racist apparently.
Not everyone and not slave owning but probably a really huge amount were racist, yeah. Before we beat Nazi Germany iirc there's some Pew polling showing nearly half the country supported anti-Jewish laws as one example.
by San Lumen » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:02 pm
Cordel One wrote:San Lumen wrote:
How can you call a majority of the colonists racist when that was widely held belief at the time? Its real easy to take current standard and say that person from the past is a racist.
Racism doesn't stop being racist just because most people are racist.San Lumen wrote: Have you ever read the Lincoln-Douglas debates? Lincoln said some things that would be considered quite racist by today's standards.
Yeah, I know.
by Heloin » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:06 pm
San Lumen wrote:
Are you listening at all or would you rather push your far left ideology? Racist by todays standards back that it was not. Its not fair to apply todays standards to people from the 18th century.
Do you consider Lincoln to be a racist?
by Cordel One » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:08 pm
San Lumen wrote:
Are you listening at all or would you rather push your far left ideology? Racist by todays standards back that it was not. Its not fair to apply todays standards to people from the 18th century.
rac·ism
/ˈrāˌsizəm/
noun
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
San Lumen wrote:Do you consider Lincoln to be a racist?
by Ethel mermania » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:11 pm
Cordel One wrote:San Lumen wrote:
Yes I am and to call the founding fathers racist scum shows a stunning ignorance on your part. There was no other way to get the constitution passed without the three fifths compromise. If your going to label everyone who owned slaves or held racist beliefs by todays standards you might as well remove every statue erected before 1950.
Owning slaves does not stop being racist because the vast majority of the colonists were also racist.
by Ethel mermania » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:12 pm
Cordel One wrote:San Lumen wrote:Are you listening at all or would you rather push your far left ideology? Racist by todays standards back that it was not. Its not fair to apply todays standards to people from the 18th century.
What's racist doesn't change over time, it's always had the same meaning:rac·ism
/ˈrāˌsizəm/
noun
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
Most people being racist does not make them not racist.San Lumen wrote:Do you consider Lincoln to be a racist?
Uh yeah
by US-SSR » Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:18 pm
by Ifreann » Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:11 am
San Lumen wrote:Ifreann wrote:I don't care about imagining a way to both abolish slavery and create America as you know it. Why would I do that? What would be the point? This isn't an alt-history thread.
because that was the topic. You claimed I was trying to justify a atrocity to create my so called "normal world. Whatever that means.
where they sexist too because they didnt include women's suffrage?
Rea wrote:The odd, self loathing tendency to hate one’s own country of birth - and all its traditions, notes, and history - seems to be limited to Western Anglophobe countries like the US, Canada, and UK. I find it all the more peculiar because the majority of the people ascribed to such beliefs - exempting displaced indigenous folk - are upper middle class whites who really have no reason to hate a country where everything under the sun is handed to them on a plate. It’s very puzzling. These are the same people who tell me “America was never great” despite the fact I moved here precisely because I believed it was the greatest country in the world, the people who tore down a US Flag I put up in our dorm - as if trying to erase the pride I take in being part of this country’s multicultural fabric despite their having been born and raised here - and the people who presumed to give me a long humorless lecture on native genocide when I made an innocuous remark about Thanksgiving.
I don’t understand it, and after watching this kind of sentiment grow over the past ten years of my life I’m not sure I really want to. Yes, every country has problems. Yes, every country’s government has done some disreputable things in its past. That doesn’t mean we should show our spite for every country and its traditions at every opportunity.
by The Reformed American Republic » Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:38 am
by -Astoria- » Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:41 am
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by Ethel mermania » Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:47 am
Ifreann wrote:San Lumen wrote:because that was the topic. You claimed I was trying to justify a atrocity to create my so called "normal world. Whatever that means.
And the fact that you think that it was good, or at least the right course of action, for slavery to be tolerated since it lead to America being founded does not create an obligation on me to imagine an alternate history where slavery was not tolerated and also America was still founded.San Lumen wrote:
By today's standards.What part of such beliefs were not consisted racist then and were widespread don't you get?
They were widespread, though. Northern states had abolitionist laws. The fact that those laws did not cover the whole nation doesn't mean that abolitionism was some fringe ideology. Were gay rights a fringe ideology ten years ago? Marriage equality was only the law in a few states back then, just like abolitionism. The fact that it took a lot longer for abolitionism to become the law across the nation than it took for marriage equality doesn't mean that abolitionism was not a widespread belief before Lincoln proclaimed emancipation.where they sexist too because they didnt include women's suffrage?
Yes. That they didn't think there was anything wrong with being sexist doesn't mean they weren't sexist.Rea wrote:The odd, self loathing tendency to hate one’s own country of birth - and all its traditions, notes, and history - seems to be limited to Western Anglophobe countries like the US, Canada, and UK. I find it all the more peculiar because the majority of the people ascribed to such beliefs - exempting displaced indigenous folk - are upper middle class whites who really have no reason to hate a country where everything under the sun is handed to them on a plate. It’s very puzzling. These are the same people who tell me “America was never great” despite the fact I moved here precisely because I believed it was the greatest country in the world, the people who tore down a US Flag I put up in our dorm - as if trying to erase the pride I take in being part of this country’s multicultural fabric despite their having been born and raised here - and the people who presumed to give me a long humorless lecture on native genocide when I made an innocuous remark about Thanksgiving.
I don’t understand it, and after watching this kind of sentiment grow over the past ten years of my life I’m not sure I really want to. Yes, every country has problems. Yes, every country’s government has done some disreputable things in its past. That doesn’t mean we should show our spite for every country and its traditions at every opportunity.
So strange to see someone agree on the facts, accept all the terrible things that America has done and is doing, but object to people not ignoring them.
by Minskiev » Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:51 am
San Lumen wrote:Cordel One wrote:Owning slaves does not stop being racist because the vast majority of the colonists were also racist.
How can you call a majority of the colonists racist when that was widely held belief at the time? Its real easy to take current standard and say that person from the past is a racist. Have you ever read the Lincoln-Douglas debates? Lincoln said some things that would be considered quite racist by today's standards.
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