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"Survey finds lack of holocaust knowledge in american young"

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Does American Education Suck?

Yes, and we should do something about it.
42
84%
Yes, and we should not do anything about it.
3
6%
No. Simple as that.
2
4%
Other (Say below)
3
6%
 
Total votes : 50

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Neutraligon
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Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:10 pm

Xmara wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:See I dunno, I remember hearing similar concerns about knowledge about the Holocaust back in the day.

I distinctly remember the way we covered the Holocaust in my Catholic School, as part of World War 2. It was kinda hype. As part of our approach to Christmas, me and my TV fan girlfriend proposed we watch Band of Brothers, which was available in the school library. Everybody got hyped. We made popcorn, we brought snacks, and all we did in class was watch the show supplemented by a brief lesson and some discussions...

Then, we got to the Holocaust episode, and my teacher warned us, this show about war is about to get even more serious, and if people can't handle it, leave now. Everybody kinda nodded and was all meh about it... Until we got to the actual part in the show and a bunch of the kids started crying. One girl, who was a Jew herself and my ex-girlfriend, was inconsolable and had to sit outside in the hall. Luckily we had comfy couches for that. After the episode was over a few minutes later, I went outside to console her.

Her conclusion was that, as hard as it was to watch, she needed to know. We all came away better, happier, wiser people from having watched that show.

Is it really that hard to educate kids about the realities of WW2? Is it so offensive... Just how many lies are people telling their children?

My 8th and 10th grade English classes had Holocaust units, and we touched on it in 9th grade English with our summer reading assignment. I have a couple of memories that stand out from those classes:

-In 8th grade, we were split into three groups, and each group read a different book: The Children of Willesden Lane, Night, and The Diary of Anne Frank. I was in the group assigned to The Children of Willesden Lane, but my English teacher lent me a copy of Night because I had asked about it. I remember only making it through the first few chapters. I couldn't complete it. It was, at that point in my life, the most disturbing thing I had ever read.

-In 10th grade, we were assigned I Have Lived A Thousand Years. It was pretty disturbing as well, but I think the moment that stands out the most to me is when the girl and her mother are given bowls of soup (the way it's described, it sounded more like slop than it did soup). The girl points at her mother's soup and tells her that there is a worm in it. It doesn't matter to her, though, and she eats the whole bowl, worm included. IDK why, but I found that scene really unnerving, even though it was far from the most horrifying aspect of the book.

Schindler's list, when I was in 7th grade I watched Schindler's list with my Hebrew School classmates. Same year I went to the DC holocaust museum. They have video of what the camps where like when active, as well as the experiments done on the ... prisoners. Those videos where hidden by a wall so that those children not able to deal would not see them. I still remember the images of the bodies piled on each other.
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Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio
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Postby Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio » Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:14 pm

A part of the problem is that some teachers feel it is too obvious to need to review it.
The largest problem is ignorance or denialism.
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:31 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Xmara wrote:My 8th and 10th grade English classes had Holocaust units, and we touched on it in 9th grade English with our summer reading assignment. I have a couple of memories that stand out from those classes:

-In 8th grade, we were split into three groups, and each group read a different book: The Children of Willesden Lane, Night, and The Diary of Anne Frank. I was in the group assigned to The Children of Willesden Lane, but my English teacher lent me a copy of Night because I had asked about it. I remember only making it through the first few chapters. I couldn't complete it. It was, at that point in my life, the most disturbing thing I had ever read.

-In 10th grade, we were assigned I Have Lived A Thousand Years. It was pretty disturbing as well, but I think the moment that stands out the most to me is when the girl and her mother are given bowls of soup (the way it's described, it sounded more like slop than it did soup). The girl points at her mother's soup and tells her that there is a worm in it. It doesn't matter to her, though, and she eats the whole bowl, worm included. IDK why, but I found that scene really unnerving, even though it was far from the most horrifying aspect of the book.

Schindler's list, when I was in 7th grade I watched Schindler's list with my Hebrew School classmates. Same year I went to the DC holocaust museum. They have video of what the camps where like when active, as well as the experiments done on the ... prisoners. Those videos where hidden by a wall so that those children not able to deal would not see them. I still remember the images of the bodies piled on each other.


Hmpf. Didn’t know you were Jewish. Not that it matters. In my time; it was part of the WW2 section of history. One of my great-uncles liberated a couple camps. He had stories and my aunt said it messed him up big time. He even once said with a dark look “What I saw justified the death of every German I killed.”
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Neutraligon
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:37 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:Schindler's list, when I was in 7th grade I watched Schindler's list with my Hebrew School classmates. Same year I went to the DC holocaust museum. They have video of what the camps where like when active, as well as the experiments done on the ... prisoners. Those videos where hidden by a wall so that those children not able to deal would not see them. I still remember the images of the bodies piled on each other.


Hmpf. Didn’t know you were Jewish. Not that it matters. In my time; it was part of the WW2 section of history. One of my great-uncles liberated a couple camps. He had stories and my aunt said it messed him up big time. He even once said with a dark look “What I saw justified the death of every German I killed.”

I had a distant cousin that survived Auschwitz, when they where alive they refused to talk about it. He was an amazing wood worker, and was the only one of his immediate family to survive.
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Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio
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Postby Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio » Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:41 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:Schindler's list, when I was in 7th grade I watched Schindler's list with my Hebrew School classmates. Same year I went to the DC holocaust museum. They have video of what the camps where like when active, as well as the experiments done on the ... prisoners. Those videos where hidden by a wall so that those children not able to deal would not see them. I still remember the images of the bodies piled on each other.


Hmpf. Didn’t know you were Jewish. Not that it matters. In my time; it was part of the WW2 section of history. One of my great-uncles liberated a couple camps. He had stories and my aunt said it messed him up big time. He even once said with a dark look “What I saw justified the death of every German I killed.”

I'm a bit surprised that both of us had great-uncles fight in WWII, I was under the impression that you were an X-ennial (I am a borderline late millennial), so I would have guessed your uncles fought. Sorry in advance, no offense intended and this tiny stuff does not matter
A couple of my great-uncles fought, and would never speak about it. One spoke about it being cold sleeping in tents by the Rhine, but the other never mentioned it (well, he did tell that he had a piece of shrapnel in his back).
There were certainly abounding evils for so many to be trauma-silenced
Last edited by Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio on Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Xmara
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Xmara » Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:20 pm

Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
Hmpf. Didn’t know you were Jewish. Not that it matters. In my time; it was part of the WW2 section of history. One of my great-uncles liberated a couple camps. He had stories and my aunt said it messed him up big time. He even once said with a dark look “What I saw justified the death of every German I killed.”

I'm a bit surprised that both of us had great-uncles fight in WWII, I was under the impression that you were an X-ennial (I am a borderline late millennial), so I would have guessed your uncles fought. Sorry in advance, no offense intended and this tiny stuff does not matter
A couple of my great-uncles fought, and would never speak about it. One spoke about it being cold sleeping in tents by the Rhine, but the other never mentioned it (well, he did tell that he had a piece of shrapnel in his back).
There were certainly abounding evils for so many to be trauma-silenced

My great-uncle fought in WWII as well. Don’t know if he pulled off any heroics, but he did steal Hitler’s silverware, so there’s that.
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Vistulange
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Postby Vistulange » Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:13 am

The Black Forrest wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:Schindler's list, when I was in 7th grade I watched Schindler's list with my Hebrew School classmates. Same year I went to the DC holocaust museum. They have video of what the camps where like when active, as well as the experiments done on the ... prisoners. Those videos where hidden by a wall so that those children not able to deal would not see them. I still remember the images of the bodies piled on each other.


Hmpf. Didn’t know you were Jewish. Not that it matters. In my time; it was part of the WW2 section of history. One of my great-uncles liberated a couple camps. He had stories and my aunt said it messed him up big time. He even once said with a dark look “What I saw justified the death of every German I killed.”

These sorts of horrors are exactly why I didn't go into history. I was very interested in the Second World War, but doing some research at the undergraduate level was enough to horrify me enough to steer clear of the Holocaust, at least as a professional area of study. What I do know is that what is easily the most horrible act in human history—not because of the number of humans killed, but rather because of the methods and bureaucracy employed to do so—really shouldn't be glossed over. It's not too obvious, it's been a long time.
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Kowani
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:39 am

Xmara wrote:
Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio wrote:I'm a bit surprised that both of us had great-uncles fight in WWII, I was under the impression that you were an X-ennial (I am a borderline late millennial), so I would have guessed your uncles fought. Sorry in advance, no offense intended and this tiny stuff does not matter
A couple of my great-uncles fought, and would never speak about it. One spoke about it being cold sleeping in tents by the Rhine, but the other never mentioned it (well, he did tell that he had a piece of shrapnel in his back).
There were certainly abounding evils for so many to be trauma-silenced

My great-uncle fought in WWII as well. Don’t know if he pulled off any heroics, but he did steal Hitler’s silverware, so there’s that.

Now that’s worthy of a medal.
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:41 am

Kowani wrote:
Xmara wrote:My great-uncle fought in WWII as well. Don’t know if he pulled off any heroics, but he did steal Hitler’s silverware, so there’s that.

Now that’s worthy of a medal.


Looting good, if looted bad. Of course, nationalism at root of war requires, the silverware be turned over to the victorious government.
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:32 am

I had at least one grandfather who died in WW2, and I deeply resent the way history is taught.

All the Allied atrocities, and the Allied losses, were for a cause of Nationalism. There is so much tragedy in it, so much meaningless slaughter and loss of livelihood, it makes me sick to hear "we did it to avenge the Jews". We did not. We did it all to protect our own nations from invasion. Except I guess the US, who did it for a more long-term strategy.

Any school teaching the Holocaust as the reason and justification for WW2, it teaching propaganda. That is not why your country fought. It's why communists died. It's why socialists died. And it's why German Jews who wouldn't fight back, died. Once it kicked off, and conscripts on all sides forced into battle, it was all about nations.

Citizens! Voters! Remember the war. Remember there were alternatives. Do not make the same mistake your grandfathers or great-grandfathers made.
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Freiheit Reich
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Postby Freiheit Reich » Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:38 am

The youth of America lack knowledge about basic world geography and world history, BUT they can tell you the latest news about the cast of Jersey Shore or the Kardashian sisters and other important celebrity gossip. They also can tell us how filing down your teeth to make them straight will make you attractive and how looting stores is a proper way to mourn the deaths of those killed by the police.

'Idiocracy' is a must see movie that shows what is happening and will happen to America at this rate. Perhaps the USA needs a mass sterilization campaign so idiots have fewer children and the country as a whole can become stronger. I fear for the future.
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Freiheit Reich
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Postby Freiheit Reich » Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:40 am

Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:We don't teach it in school is why.

When we get to WWII we talk about the war itself with off-hand mentions of genocide and what not by the Nazis. That's it. They rarely say anything more than "Jews", "genocide", and "death camps". They never go into any more detail than that.

The worst part is that they don't even mention Japanese war crimes, which were equally as bad if not worse than some of the German ones.
La xinga wrote:What do you mean?

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It is because many liberals say that we can only talk about white people doing bad things. Other races never did anything bad and they are gentle and criticizing or pointing out bad things they did is racist.
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:43 am

Freiheit Reich wrote:
Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire wrote:The worst part is that they don't even mention Japanese war crimes, which were equally as bad if not worse than some of the German ones.

What do I mean with what?


It is because many liberals say that we can only talk about white people doing bad things. Other races never did anything bad and they are gentle and criticizing or pointing out bad things they did is racist.


Hang in there. You'll be a minority some day!
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Freiheit Reich
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Postby Freiheit Reich » Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:44 am

San Kalungsod Saludong wrote:
Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire wrote:The worst part is that they don't even mention Japanese war crimes, which were equally as bad if not worse than some of the German ones.

What do I mean with what?


It's unnerving how the Americans know alot more about the Germans when Germany never directly attacked American territory or killed American soldiers, whereas it was Japan who invade the American territories of Hawaii and the Philippines.


Remember that George H.W. Bush attended Emperor Hirohito's funeral which was a grave insult to all those killed by the Japanese in WWII. I guess if Nixon could be friends with Mao who was partially responsible for many soldiers killed in the Korean War, why not be friends with an evil war criminal in Japan as well. Hitler didn't live to become buddies with top American leaders so his record will be forever tarnished.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:45 am

Freiheit Reich wrote:The youth of America lack knowledge about basic world geography and world history, BUT they can tell you the latest news about the cast of Jersey Shore or the Kardashian sisters and other important celebrity gossip. They also can tell us how filing down your teeth to make them straight will make you attractive and how looting stores is a proper way to mourn the deaths of those killed by the police.

'Idiocracy' is a must see movie that shows what is happening and will happen to America at this rate. Perhaps the USA needs a mass sterilization campaign so idiots have fewer children and the country as a whole can become stronger. I fear for the future.


Seen it. Funny. Not the best source for you to look down on "the youth of America". You need to grow up. Will happen.
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Vistulange
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Postby Vistulange » Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:49 am

Freiheit Reich wrote:
San Kalungsod Saludong wrote:
It's unnerving how the Americans know alot more about the Germans when Germany never directly attacked American territory or killed American soldiers, whereas it was Japan who invade the American territories of Hawaii and the Philippines.


Remember that George H.W. Bush attended Emperor Hirohito's funeral which was a grave insult to all those killed by the Japanese in WWII. I guess if Nixon could be friends with Mao who was partially responsible for many soldiers killed in the Korean War, why not be friends with an evil war criminal in Japan as well. Hitler didn't live to become buddies with top American leaders so his record will be forever tarnished.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html

Shockingly, the world of politics generally doesn't allow you to keep a grudge for generations on end, at least not with favourable results.
Last edited by Vistulange on Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Freiheit Reich
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Postby Freiheit Reich » Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:13 am

Vistulange wrote:
Freiheit Reich wrote:
Remember that George H.W. Bush attended Emperor Hirohito's funeral which was a grave insult to all those killed by the Japanese in WWII. I guess if Nixon could be friends with Mao who was partially responsible for many soldiers killed in the Korean War, why not be friends with an evil war criminal in Japan as well. Hitler didn't live to become buddies with top American leaders so his record will be forever tarnished.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html

Shockingly, the world of politics generally doesn't allow you to keep a grudge for generations on end, at least not with favourable results.


Top Nazi leaders faced punishment after WWII but the emperor of Japan was honored by his citizens and many world leaders. One might find this a bit hypocritical. It is just like how the George W. Bush was holding hands with the Saudi king while trying to liberate Iraqis from Saddam Hussein. Being inconsistent creates confusion and causes a lot of anger. Perhaps it is OK to be an evil dictator if you are Asian (Mao, Suharto, Hirohito, Ho Chi Minh, Deng Xiaoping) but if you are European (Milošević, Hitler, Ceaușescu, Erich Honecker) it is seen as wrong.

My school also failed to cover the Japanese war crimes well. I only knew about Pearl Harbor and the Bataan Death March. However, the Nazi concentration camps were covered and we read The Diary of Anne Frank in 8th grade which was useful to realize the personal tragedies of the war.
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Vistulange
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Postby Vistulange » Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:25 am

Freiheit Reich wrote:
Vistulange wrote:Shockingly, the world of politics generally doesn't allow you to keep a grudge for generations on end, at least not with favourable results.


Top Nazi leaders faced punishment after WWII but the emperor of Japan was honored by his citizens and many world leaders. One might find this a bit hypocritical. It is just like how the George W. Bush was holding hands with the Saudi king while trying to liberate Iraqis from Saddam Hussein. Being inconsistent creates confusion and causes a lot of anger. Perhaps it is OK to be an evil dictator if you are Asian (Mao, Suharto, Hirohito, Ho Chi Minh, Deng Xiaoping) but if you are European (Milošević, Hitler, Ceaușescu, Erich Honecker) it is seen as wrong.

My school also failed to cover the Japanese war crimes well. I only knew about Pearl Harbor and the Bataan Death March. However, the Nazi concentration camps were covered and we read The Diary of Anne Frank in 8th grade which was useful to realize the personal tragedies of the war.

You're categorising while disregarding the contexts.

Mao and Ho Chi Minh won their wars. All the examples of European leaders you gave either lost a war, or got toppled through a revolution. There isn't an anti-European conspiracy here, it's just that those particular dictators got ousted, and the others didn't. Hirohito's retention was more for political practicality reasons, and not because "yeah well it's okay if you're a dictator because he's Asian". You don't create a fuss over Japan's constitutional system if your primary aim is to contain the Soviet Union.

You seem to be mixing up "the West thinks they're okay" with "the West worked with them". Have you never been in a situation where you simply had to work with people you absolutely detest on a personal level, but had to work with because that's simply what you had to work with, at the time? It's essentially the same situation. Sure, you can make a fuss and maybe change something, but the costs of doing so really might not make it worthwhile, or just impractical. There's no anti-European or anti-white agenda here, my man.

EDIT: Also, am I missing something? Who the hell regards Mao as "good" nowadays, sorry, aside from some strawmen you might be creating here?
Last edited by Vistulange on Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:36 am

Vistulange wrote:Hirohito's retention was more for political practicality reasons, and not because "yeah well it's okay if you're a dictator because he's Asian". You don't create a fuss over Japan's constitutional system if your primary aim is to contain the Soviet Union.


Not disagreeing, but adding that leaving the Emperor in place in Japan, was a very wise move by the US. A good constitution was put in place and has largely been observed, the Emperor is a figurehead (still quite popular with Japanese, but with very little power), and it has turned out far better than if the US had tried to impose their own democratic system, with an elected President in place of the Emperor.

It could have been better, but it could have been much much worse. Good work USA, I say!
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Freiheit Reich
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Postby Freiheit Reich » Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:07 am

Vistulange wrote:
Freiheit Reich wrote:
Top Nazi leaders faced punishment after WWII but the emperor of Japan was honored by his citizens and many world leaders. One might find this a bit hypocritical. It is just like how the George W. Bush was holding hands with the Saudi king while trying to liberate Iraqis from Saddam Hussein. Being inconsistent creates confusion and causes a lot of anger. Perhaps it is OK to be an evil dictator if you are Asian (Mao, Suharto, Hirohito, Ho Chi Minh, Deng Xiaoping) but if you are European (Milošević, Hitler, Ceaușescu, Erich Honecker) it is seen as wrong.

My school also failed to cover the Japanese war crimes well. I only knew about Pearl Harbor and the Bataan Death March. However, the Nazi concentration camps were covered and we read The Diary of Anne Frank in 8th grade which was useful to realize the personal tragedies of the war.

You're categorising while disregarding the contexts.

Mao and Ho Chi Minh won their wars. All the examples of European leaders you gave either lost a war, or got toppled through a revolution. There isn't an anti-European conspiracy here, it's just that those particular dictators got ousted, and the others didn't. Hirohito's retention was more for political practicality reasons, and not because "yeah well it's okay if you're a dictator because he's Asian". You don't create a fuss over Japan's constitutional system if your primary aim is to contain the Soviet Union.

You seem to be mixing up "the West thinks they're okay" with "the West worked with them". Have you never been in a situation where you simply had to work with people you absolutely detest on a personal level, but had to work with because that's simply what you had to work with, at the time? It's essentially the same situation. Sure, you can make a fuss and maybe change something, but the costs of doing so really might not make it worthwhile, or just impractical. There's no anti-European or anti-white agenda here, my man.

EDIT: Also, am I missing something? Who the hell regards Mao as "good" nowadays, sorry, aside from some strawmen you might be creating here?


China still honors Mao. They see Mao every day because he is on all of their paper bills 1 RMB and higher. His face is also hanging overlooking Tiananmen Square. During the 2008 Olympics, the background photo used by the American TV station was Mao's photo which hangs overlooking Tiananmen Square. It is really sick that the TV station would honor the dictator in that way when there are plenty of other Chinese photos they could have used instead. The UN honors Mao by keeping the ROC out of the UN because this is what Mao wanted.

I will bet that a very high percent of Americans also don't realize that Japan had concentration camps in China where horrid medical experiments and torture occurred. It seems wrong to me that someone can get away with that not to mention he killed thousands of Americans in the war. The USA will put people in jail several years for stealing a TV set, but if you kill a million people without just cause then you will be let off because you have a fancy title. You gave a good reason why but it is very unethical. Emperor Hirohito should have been executed and a handpicked leader should have been chosen by the US government as a punishment for the war.

Yes, I had to work with people I disliked but none of them invaded countries and led the deaths of millions while torturing and raping many along the way.
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Ex-Nation

Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:21 am

Freiheit Reich wrote:
San Kalungsod Saludong wrote:
It's unnerving how the Americans know alot more about the Germans when Germany never directly attacked American territory or killed American soldiers, whereas it was Japan who invade the American territories of Hawaii and the Philippines.


Remember that George H.W. Bush attended Emperor Hirohito's funeral which was a grave insult to all those killed by the Japanese in WWII. I guess if Nixon could be friends with Mao who was partially responsible for many soldiers killed in the Korean War, why not be friends with an evil war criminal in Japan as well. Hitler didn't live to become buddies with top American leaders so his record will be forever tarnished.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html


Bush was also friends with the Saudis, a sharia state who some suspect aided the 9/11 attackers. Our government constantly makes nice with people who kill Americans.
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"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:22 am

Xmara wrote:
Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio wrote:I'm a bit surprised that both of us had great-uncles fight in WWII, I was under the impression that you were an X-ennial (I am a borderline late millennial), so I would have guessed your uncles fought. Sorry in advance, no offense intended and this tiny stuff does not matter
A couple of my great-uncles fought, and would never speak about it. One spoke about it being cold sleeping in tents by the Rhine, but the other never mentioned it (well, he did tell that he had a piece of shrapnel in his back).
There were certainly abounding evils for so many to be trauma-silenced

My great-uncle fought in WWII as well. Don’t know if he pulled off any heroics, but he did steal Hitler’s silverware, so there’s that.


Did he take Hitler's canoe?
Leftist, commie and Antifa Guy. Democratic Confederalist, Anti-racist

"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:27 am

Freiheit Reich wrote:
Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire wrote:The worst part is that they don't even mention Japanese war crimes, which were equally as bad if not worse than some of the German ones.

What do I mean with what?


It is because many liberals say that we can only talk about white people doing bad things. Other races never did anything bad and they are gentle and criticizing or pointing out bad things they did is racist.


My parents stood as proof to me from a young age that non whites can be racist. Dad doesn't like black people or Arabs and mom doesn't like the Irish, Albanians, Chaldeans, black people, slavs, east Indians, gypsies, or Jews. It's ironic though because whereas my dad buys fully into biological racism and thinks "More European in descent=good, black=bad," mom denies being racist because "she doesn't believe in pure, biological races." She doesn't understand that if you say things like "Russians never invented a damn thing in 1000 years" or "You better not be hanging around any Albanians. They're nothing but trouble," you're kinda racist.

Then there's my grandmother who is cool with black people and asians and native Americans, but doesn't like Italians, Poles, Albanians, Chaldeans or Mexicans. It's one huge mess.
Last edited by Borderlands of Rojava on Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Leftist, commie and Antifa Guy. Democratic Confederalist, Anti-racist

"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:31 am

Neutraligon wrote:
Xmara wrote:My 8th and 10th grade English classes had Holocaust units, and we touched on it in 9th grade English with our summer reading assignment. I have a couple of memories that stand out from those classes:

-In 8th grade, we were split into three groups, and each group read a different book: The Children of Willesden Lane, Night, and The Diary of Anne Frank. I was in the group assigned to The Children of Willesden Lane, but my English teacher lent me a copy of Night because I had asked about it. I remember only making it through the first few chapters. I couldn't complete it. It was, at that point in my life, the most disturbing thing I had ever read.

-In 10th grade, we were assigned I Have Lived A Thousand Years. It was pretty disturbing as well, but I think the moment that stands out the most to me is when the girl and her mother are given bowls of soup (the way it's described, it sounded more like slop than it did soup). The girl points at her mother's soup and tells her that there is a worm in it. It doesn't matter to her, though, and she eats the whole bowl, worm included. IDK why, but I found that scene really unnerving, even though it was far from the most horrifying aspect of the book.

Schindler's list, when I was in 7th grade I watched Schindler's list with my Hebrew School classmates. Same year I went to the DC holocaust museum. They have video of what the camps where like when active, as well as the experiments done on the ... prisoners. Those videos where hidden by a wall so that those children not able to deal would not see them. I still remember the images of the bodies piled on each other.


I remember when I went to the holocaust museum. It was like one of those haunted houses on the block during October, but actually terrifying as hell.
Leftist, commie and Antifa Guy. Democratic Confederalist, Anti-racist

"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

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Vistulange
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Founded: May 13, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Vistulange » Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:57 am

Freiheit Reich wrote:
Vistulange wrote:You're categorising while disregarding the contexts.

Mao and Ho Chi Minh won their wars. All the examples of European leaders you gave either lost a war, or got toppled through a revolution. There isn't an anti-European conspiracy here, it's just that those particular dictators got ousted, and the others didn't. Hirohito's retention was more for political practicality reasons, and not because "yeah well it's okay if you're a dictator because he's Asian". You don't create a fuss over Japan's constitutional system if your primary aim is to contain the Soviet Union.

You seem to be mixing up "the West thinks they're okay" with "the West worked with them". Have you never been in a situation where you simply had to work with people you absolutely detest on a personal level, but had to work with because that's simply what you had to work with, at the time? It's essentially the same situation. Sure, you can make a fuss and maybe change something, but the costs of doing so really might not make it worthwhile, or just impractical. There's no anti-European or anti-white agenda here, my man.

EDIT: Also, am I missing something? Who the hell regards Mao as "good" nowadays, sorry, aside from some strawmen you might be creating here?


China still honors Mao. They see Mao every day because he is on all of their paper bills 1 RMB and higher. His face is also hanging overlooking Tiananmen Square. During the 2008 Olympics, the background photo used by the American TV station was Mao's photo which hangs overlooking Tiananmen Square. It is really sick that the TV station would honor the dictator in that way when there are plenty of other Chinese photos they could have used instead. The UN honors Mao by keeping the ROC out of the UN because this is what Mao wanted.


China is a bloody totalitarian single-party dictatorship established by Mao, where the entire thing revolves around venerating Mao. Of course they are going to honour Mao, what were you expecting them to do, put his corpse on a tribunal because he killed people? Don't shift the goalposts: Practically nobody in the country we're talking about, the United States and perhaps the Western world in general, honours Mao.

Freiheit Reich wrote:I will bet that a very high percent of Americans also don't realize that Japan had concentration camps in China where horrid medical experiments and torture occurred. It seems wrong to me that someone can get away with that not to mention he killed thousands of Americans in the war. The USA will put people in jail several years for stealing a TV set, but if you kill a million people without just cause then you will be let off because you have a fancy title. You gave a good reason why but it is very unethical. Emperor Hirohito should have been executed and a handpicked leader should have been chosen by the US government as a punishment for the war.

You do realise that Japan didn't "get away with it", yes? I don't think there's a single Japanese city that wasn't bombed thoroughly by the time the war ended. To put it in perspective, the two atomic bombs were, at the time, not too big of a deal, because cities were being bombed to dust all the time by 1945. Moreover, quite a few of the people responsible were tried and hanged, Hideki Tojo being one of them. So, really, why execute the Emperor, who was incredibly important in Japanese political culture, and risk destabilising and losing the whole country, potentially leading to a political revolution at worst or long-term instability at best, just so you can feel good having done "the right thing", whatever the hell that is supposed to be? The phrase "just cause" makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Had the Nazis won the war, everything they did and would have done would have been a "just cause". Liberal democracy isn't the "fate" of the world, we were simply lucky enough that the side with a vision for liberal democracy was more powerful than the lot who wanted to murder millions of people.

Freiheit Reich wrote:Yes, I had to work with people I disliked but none of them invaded countries and led the deaths of millions while torturing and raping many along the way.

False equivalence. Here, your equivalent is a country, who in its past has also committed atrocities of its own, just like practically every other nation-state that exists on the earth. It's not some willy nilly individual working with a state of war criminals. Get it straight.
Last edited by Vistulange on Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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