US Anti-Police Protests and Riots Thread III

[Atheris]

Listen, dude. I'm all against riots myself, but saying people could "just not riot" is a naïve fallacy. That's not how mass hysteria works. If someone is wrapped up in an event of mass hysteria be it a riot, a mosh pit, or the 14th-century dancing plague in the western Holy Roman Empire, then they have basically no real sense of being there. It's kind of like dissociation. They don't really have control of their bodies, only that they must "do".

Great, then toss them in prison and call it a day. Don't go to protests if they could turn violent, it isn't hard.

Why wouldn't you go to a protest if you care strongly about something? I would go to an anti-copyright protest if one was held near me, in full honesty. Just because someone goes to a protest doesn't mean they want to riot. In fact, nearly every riot starts as a peaceful protest and then the "opposing" side, be it the police, counter-protestors, or something else, makes it violent and escalates it into a riot. In the case that it is the protestors that begin the riot, something usually provoked it. It's not the fault of protestors for rioting, it's the fault of whoever provoked them to riot.

[Salus Maior]

Listen, dude. I'm all against riots myself, but saying people could "just not riot" is a naïve fallacy. That's not how mass hysteria works. If someone is wrapped up in an event of mass hysteria be it a riot, a mosh pit, or the 14th-century dancing plague in the western Holy Roman Empire, then they have basically no real sense of being there. It's kind of like dissociation. They don't really have control of their bodies, only that they must "do".

Great, then toss them in prison and call it a day. Don't go to protests if they could turn violent, it isn't hard.

How is one supposed to know if a protest is going to become violent before it becomes violent?

[The Republic of Fore]

Great, then toss them in prison and call it a day. Don't go to protests if they could turn violent, it isn't hard.

Why wouldn't you go to a protest if you care strongly about something? I would go to an anti-copyright protest if one was held near me, in full honesty. Just because someone goes to a protest doesn't mean they want to riot. In fact, nearly every riot starts as a peaceful protest and then the "opposing" side, be it the police, counter-protestors, or something else, makes it violent and escalates it into a riot. In the case that it is the protestors that begin the riot, something usually provoked it. It's not the fault of protestors for rioting, it's the fault of whoever provoked them to riot.

Nobody can "provoke" you to start looting random stores or attacking innocent people. Rioters belong in jail, period. Nobody held a gun to your head and made you start getting violent. And personally I kind of think all protests are pointless so I'd never bother with one.

[The Republic of Fore]

Great, then toss them in prison and call it a day. Don't go to protests if they could turn violent, it isn't hard.

How is one supposed to know if a protest is going to become violent before it becomes violent?

The content of what the protest is over? Certain subjects are more likely to cause violence. And even then, you can leave the protest once it starts getting violent.

[Fahran]

More municipal authorities and police officials should try dialing down the militarized shows of overwhelming force, they might could get better results. As happened in Brooklyn Center yesterday.

That can create issues as well, as has been seen with some of the less savory results of autonomous zones. There's a balance to cut between appropriate use of intimidation and force, excessive use of intimidation and force, and no use of intimidation and force, and that balance is highly situational. Gallo pointed out before that municipal governments and police departments have often gotten that wrong and have often been fundamentally disparate in how they message citizens and protestors. When I was complaining about Minneapolis's mayor, this was part of it. You need some degree of clarity in your leadership or else problems will invariably arise. A hands-off approach may absolutely be appropriate for some protests. But you have to commit to that and the potential consequences if you get that wrong as a mayor or police chief, instead of trying to have it both ways.

[Fahran]

Why wouldn't you go to a protest if you care strongly about something? I would go to an anti-copyright protest if one was held near me, in full honesty. Just because someone goes to a protest doesn't mean they want to riot. In fact, nearly every riot starts as a peaceful protest and then the "opposing" side, be it the police, counter-protestors, or something else, makes it violent and escalates it into a riot. In the case that it is the protestors that begin the riot, something usually provoked it. It's not the fault of protestors for rioting, it's the fault of whoever provoked them to riot.

I think you can admit that certain social or policing factors may contribute to riots while still holding people who riot accountable for the crimes they commit.

[Kowani]

How is one supposed to know if a protest is going to become violent before it becomes violent?

The content of what the protest is over? Certain subjects are more likely to cause violence. And even then, you can leave the protest once it starts getting violent.

unless the police kettle you
or attack you while you disperse
or use the newly implemented laws to charge you for being present at a protest that turned violent
or attack you while you're on your own private property


you know, all things that happened

[Great Algerstonia]

If you find yourself fearful of protests getting out of hand, there's the option of leaving once they start turning into riots or clashes with police. However I wouldn't let fear be a factor in deciding on whether to attend a protest or not.

[Birchland and the NAF]

Didn't know "don't break the law and the police won't bother you" was such a difficult concept for adults to understand when most 5 year olds are capable of it.

It's not a difficult concept, it is however a naive, childish, and flat out wrong statement.

Not only do they bother people for not breaking the law, but the much of the law they uphold is disagreeable to me anyways. I really don’t get why BLM and their ilk pretend to hate the police so much when it’s the police that uphold diversity, gun control and other liberal standards. Also, if you’ve ever interacted with them you can tell they’re enjoying the power. When I was younger they questioned me for burning a twig with a magnifying glass.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Great, then toss them in prison and call it a day. Don't go to protests if they could turn violent, it isn't hard.

How is one supposed to know if a protest is going to become violent before it becomes violent?

They don't. So as a result the prisons fill up.

[The Republic of Fore]

The content of what the protest is over? Certain subjects are more likely to cause violence. And even then, you can leave the protest once it starts getting violent.

unless the police kettle you
or attack you while you disperse
or use the newly implemented laws to charge you for being present at a protest that turned violent
or attack you while you're on your own private property


you know, all things that happened

*Shrug* Then in that rare case It's your own fault for choosing to attend a protest. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

[Washington Resistance Army]

unless the police kettle you
or attack you while you disperse
or use the newly implemented laws to charge you for being present at a protest that turned violent
or attack you while you're on your own private property


you know, all things that happened

*Shrug* Then in that rare case It's your own fault for choosing to attend a protest. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

How on earth is it your fault for police doing scummy and shitty things lol

[Nakena]

unless the police kettle you
or attack you while you disperse
or use the newly implemented laws to charge you for being present at a protest that turned violent
or attack you while you're on your own private property


you know, all things that happened

*Shrug* Then in that rare case It's your own fault for choosing to attend a protest. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

Would you like to be on your lawn or whatever and the police passes by and fires causally some tear gas grenades or into your property or at your position?

[Birchland and the NAF]

When I was younger they questioned me for burning a twig with a magnifying glass.

They questioned you? Intruding into your business just because you were doing something potentially dangerous in public. What bullies! Fascist pigs!

Are you a back the blue fellow?

[The Reformed American Republic]

Why wouldn't you go to a protest if you care strongly about something? I would go to an anti-copyright protest if one was held near me, in full honesty. Just because someone goes to a protest doesn't mean they want to riot. In fact, nearly every riot starts as a peaceful protest and then the "opposing" side, be it the police, counter-protestors, or something else, makes it violent and escalates it into a riot. In the case that it is the protestors that begin the riot, something usually provoked it. It's not the fault of protestors for rioting, it's the fault of whoever provoked them to riot.

I think you can admit that certain social or policing factors may contribute to riots while still holding people who riot accountable for the crimes they commit.

If you don't let people riot with impunity, you're a fascist apparently.

[The Republic of Fore]

Yep, rare exceptions means something is "out of step with reality". Guess It's out of step with reality to say parasitic amoebas that attack the brain are fatal because of those two people who got lucky and lived. It's not like most people who get killed by police are armed with a gun or knife. Oh wait, they are.

You apparently don't believe in a right to keep and bear arms.

1. Cop shoots civilian
2. Civilian turns out to be armed
3. Civilian therefore partially responsible for own death

If a civilian has a pistol out, and doesn't holster it or place it on the ground when ordered by police, THEN police have a self-defense case. Perhaps you'd like to rework your argument considering that not all citizens who are ARMED are posing an immediate THREAT to police.

The case of a civilian with a long gun slung on their back, is rarer. It's up to the cop whether to order that placed on the ground, personally I wouldn't, unless there were multiple civilians and I wanted to be able to take my attention off the one with the long gun.

Or we could repeal the 2nd Amendment. I don't mind that.

I'd be willing to bet that the majority of people who get shot while armed aren't just innocent bystanders who just happened to be out for a walk with their pistol. And no need to repeal the second amendment. People can just be intelligent enough to follow instructions. If the cops kill them without justification they should be tried for murder.

[The Republic of Fore]

*Shrug* Then in that rare case It's your own fault for choosing to attend a protest. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

How on earth is it your fault for police doing scummy and shitty things lol

It's your fault for taking part in a useless gesture that rarely, if ever achieves anything.

[The Republic of Fore]

*Shrug* Then in that rare case It's your own fault for choosing to attend a protest. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

Would you like to be on your lawn or whatever and the police passes by and fires causally some tear gas grenades or into your property or at your position?

No, I wouldn't like a peaceful protestor to break into my home to loot and smash things either. At least I can sue police.

[Kowani]

unless the police kettle you
or attack you while you disperse
or use the newly implemented laws to charge you for being present at a protest that turned violent
or attack you while you're on your own private property


you know, all things that happened

*Shrug* Then in that rare case It's your own fault for choosing to attend a protest. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

firstly, this doesn't address the problem of being on your own private property and being attacked by cops
and anyway
fucking lmao
the conservative project, my friends
just the slightest pushback, and it reveals how hollow its own principles are

[Washington Resistance Army]

How on earth is it your fault for police doing scummy and shitty things lol

It's your fault for taking part in a useless gesture that rarely, if ever achieves anything.

Given the vast amount of police reform bills that are in the works or have passed nationwide this doesn't seem to be an accurate claim. Cops aren't your friends, get the boot out of your throat.

Would you like to be on your lawn or whatever and the police passes by and fires causally some tear gas grenades or into your property or at your position?

No, I wouldn't like a peaceful protestor to break into my home to loot and smash things either. At least I can sue police.

Yeah, good luck ever doing that with qualified immunity.

[The Republic of Fore]

*Shrug* Then in that rare case It's your own fault for choosing to attend a protest. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

Anything bad at all happens to you while attending a protest, it's your own fault?

Let's apply the same standard to attending a ballgame then. People can watch the game at home, their only justification for attending in person is to show their support for a "cause".

Or is supporting as sports team a more worthy pursuit than supporting BLM to you.

In case your answer is "screw them, sports are stupid too" then what about workplaces? No responsibility for what happens to employees rests with the employer, it's all their fault?

How about indoor public spaces? If people enter the Capitol without permission, they've only got themselves to blame if they get gunned down?

None of those are reasonable comparisons except the last. People watch sports to be entertained, and go to work to pay bills. Although usually work place accidents are the fault of an employee who did something stupid. Protesting is just a useless gesture that makes white people feel like they did something. As far as the Capitol, yes it is their fault if they get gunned down. Same if they want to threaten to attack people with billy clubs outside voting booths.

[The Republic of Fore]

It's your fault for taking part in a useless gesture that rarely, if ever achieves anything.

Given the vast amount of police reform bills that are in the works or have passed nationwide this doesn't seem to be an accurate claim. Cops aren't your friends, get the boot out of your throat.

No, I wouldn't like a peaceful protestor to break into my home to loot and smash things either. At least I can sue police.

Yeah, good luck ever doing that with qualified immunity.

1. And they've achieved what? People still get shot by police. Violent looting thugs aren't my friend either.
2. Police departments get sued all the time. My hometown police force got hit with a 50 grand judgement for excessive force over tasering someone.

[The Republic of Fore]

*Shrug* Then in that rare case It's your own fault for choosing to attend a protest. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

firstly, this doesn't address the problem of being on your own private property and being attacked by cops
and anyway
fucking lmao
the conservative project, my friends
just the slightest pushback, and it reveals how hollow its own principles are

I'll take that tiny risk over the much larger one of being attacked by violent thugs.

[Washington Resistance Army]

firstly, this doesn't address the problem of being on your own private property and being attacked by cops
and anyway
fucking lmao
the conservative project, my friends
just the slightest pushback, and it reveals how hollow its own principles are

I'll take that tiny risk over the much larger one of being attacked by violent thugs.

Casual reminder cops steal more than robbers and almost always get away with murder lol. They're literally just violent thugs with a different name.

[The Republic of Fore]

I'd be willing to bet

So you don't have a number. You're just going to guess that's it's "the majority" and overlook the massive hole left in your previous argument.

A majority of a majority, is not necessarily a majority of the whole.

that the majority of people who get shot while armed aren't just innocent bystanders who just happened to be out for a walk with their pistol. And no need to repeal the second amendment. People can just be intelligent enough to follow instructions. If the cops kill them without justification they should be tried for murder.

How about if you have your gun out (because you didn't know it cops breaking in your door, for instance) and the cop tells you to "drop it"?

You shouldn't drop a loaded gun with the safety off, that's dangerous to you and the cop, and to anyone even on the other side of a wall. Presumably the cop is stupid and doesn't know this.

Should you follow instructions without question? Or should you ask permission to place the gun on the ground first? How about putting the safety back on without instructions, is that enough to justify being shot dead?

People under the immediate jurisdiction of police should follow all reasonable instructions. But "reasonable" should be a very high standard, and if something goes wrong which the civilian could have foreseen but the cop was incompetent enough to not know and not ask about, then the cop should bear full responsibility.

In practice, they never do. "It's standard procedure" gets them off every time.

I doubt there are exact numbers when it comes to that. I'd ask permission to put the gun on the ground. And yes, I agree that cops should face consequences when they screw up. Doesn't change that I think violent looting thugs should face consequences too.