US Anti-Police Protests and Riots Thread III

[Galloism]

Indeed.

Last time this happened to me, I had a college aged couple walk up to me and my friend and ask what my hat meant by #PewPewLife hat. After a very brief discussion hoping to have run into other Noir fans, we were then berated for allegedly promoting violence and oppression of minorities through white supremacy. I literally just stood there in mute silence for a moment at the levels of ignorance on display before turning and walking away.

Upon discussion later, my friend and I decided that the only reason why they didn't give chance and try to continue was because there skinny jeans wouldn't let them.

That happened.

I mean, stuff like that has been reported in the news. It's not terribly unlikely it can happen to people when a news crew isn't present.

[Grinning Dragon]

As of late this seems to be the new status quo. The couple of times when I'm out at a restaurant some dispshit(s) will come up to me and let me know that my shirt(when I wear my pro gun stuff) offends them along with directed obscenities. What really sets them off is when I look at them with that I don't give a fuck look and reply "OK" then go back to eating, they will literally stand there for the next few minutes demanding that I acknowledge their grievance, when I just did by saying. OK.

Indeed.

Last time this happened to me, I had a college aged couple walk up to me and my friend and ask what my hat meant by #PewPewLife hat. After a very brief discussion hoping to have run into other Noir fans, we were then berated for allegedly promoting violence and oppression of minorities through white supremacy. I literally just stood there in mute silence for a moment at the levels of ignorance on display before turning and walking away.

Upon discussion later, my friend and I decided that the only reason why they didn't give chance and try to continue was because there skinny jeans wouldn't let them.

For me it's when I wear my "I will not comply" Noir shirt. I've also ran into people who come up to me and say "I have the same shirt" I'd say I've ran into more Noir fans than those who loose their shit over a message on a shirt.

[Salus Maior]

Likewise, don’t be surprised when, in response, the privileged militarize the police further and elect reactionary, or even fascist, politicians.

It would be difficult for me to be surprised by things that have been happening for several decades, including the entire span of my life.

Then really you should know better; and not advocate for things that will put the powerful at a greater advantage over minorities.

[Paddy O Fernature]

Indeed.

Last time this happened to me, I had a college aged couple walk up to me and my friend and ask what my hat meant by #PewPewLife hat. After a very brief discussion hoping to have run into other Noir fans, we were then berated for allegedly promoting violence and oppression of minorities through white supremacy. I literally just stood there in mute silence for a moment at the levels of ignorance on display before turning and walking away.

Upon discussion later, my friend and I decided that the only reason why they didn't give chance and try to continue was because there skinny jeans wouldn't let them.

For me it's when I wear my "I will not comply" Noir shirt. I've also ran into people who come up to me and say "I have the same shirt" I'd say I've ran into more Noir fans than those who loose their shit over a message on a shirt.

I wish that was the case here, but sadly this state isn't exactly pro 2a so it's no shocker that most people I come across have no clue about it.

[Grinning Dragon]

For me it's when I wear my "I will not comply" Noir shirt. I've also ran into people who come up to me and say "I have the same shirt" I'd say I've ran into more Noir fans than those who loose their shit over a message on a shirt.

I wish that was the case here, but sadly this state isn't exactly pro 2a so it's no shocker that most people I come across have no clue about it.

Although hard to discern, I wonder if it's some unhinged tourist vs local folks that do this type of shit. One bad thing about being in a tourist destination, we get all kinds of nut balls from other states.

[Vassenor]

It would be difficult for me to be surprised by things that have been happening for several decades, including the entire span of my life.

Then really you should know better; and not advocate for things that will put the powerful at a greater advantage over minorities.

And so minorities should just shut up and be grateful, because anything else will just be used as an excuse to make things worse.

[Salus Maior]

Then really you should know better; and not advocate for things that will put the powerful at a greater advantage over minorities.

And so minorities should just shut up and be grateful, because anything else will just be used as an excuse to make things worse.

No, they should work peacefully and through the law.

Because in a might makes right situation, minorities aren’t going to win.

[Kowani]

“Only 7% of the time I went out did any violent beatings and arson occur. I don’t know why you’re making a big deal out of this.”

“After the past 2 and a half centuries of being shit on by everyone, our response was remarkably non-violent with exceedingly few instances of violence despite these being the largest protests since the ones that ended Jim Crow”
What do you mean, historical context is important

It's not magic, just simple practicality. People need shit to have a decent life. Working for a living doesn't get it for them, so if they have the opportunity they'll just take it. You can cry about them not having the right all you want, won't change anything.

Well there's an idea that won't have any significant blowback whatsoever.

Personally, I’m a fan of the idea that “people shouldn’t be unfairly condemned to a life of poverty”, “police should be killing less people”
But advancing those peacefully don’t seem to work
I mean, we could wait another 2 generations for all the boomers and Gen X’s to die out
Electorally speaking, that might do it
It’s part of what pushed our politics to the right, when the silent and greatest generations were aging out of the electorate
But somehow, I don’t think “wait for 2 generations of people to die of old age and maybe you can have some good things” is really ethical (and it may not even be feasible)

Don't act surprised when oppressed and impoverished people don't care that they supposedly lack the right to just burn out a cop car or loot milk.

Likewise, don’t be surprised when, in response, the privileged militarize the police further and elect reactionary, or even fascist, politicians.

Is this a serious point
In case you did not notice, the largest expansion of militarized policing was during a time when crime was going down-and the largest expansion of reactionary politics has always been when minorities are doing perceived to be threatening the position of white people at the top-regardless of how peacefully they get there
It has nothing to do with actual facts on the ground
It’s just about power

And so minorities should just shut up and be grateful, because anything else will just be used as an excuse to make things worse.

No, they should work peacefully and through the law.

Because in a might makes right situation, minorities aren’t going to win.

Hm yes
That has historically worked well
It’s not like the only major example of this, the CRA, was in a radically different media environment and had the threat of violent radicals it could use as a counterbalance
That would be silly
We couldn’t have been protesting peacefully and building electoral coalitions for the past half century
“Just do it peacefully”
As if that is not what was already being done before
In case you did not notice, people turn to violence because the peaceful methods have gotten us incremental reforms that they just roll back anyway
Yes

[Galloism]

“Only 7% of the time I went out did any violent beatings and arson occur. I don’t know why you’re making a big deal out of this.”

“After the past 2 and a half centuries of being shit on by everyone, our response was remarkably non-violent with exceedingly few instances of violence despite these being the largest protests since the ones that ended Jim Crow”
What do you mean, historical context is important

Historical context is very important. It's exceedingly important.

One of the exceedingly important understandings from historical context is that when you lash out and attack the uninvolved with the intent of scaring them into compliance with your demands, it tends to make them involved. And not in a good way.

Well there's an idea that won't have any significant blowback whatsoever.

Personally, I’m a fan of the idea that “people shouldn’t be unfairly condemned to a life of poverty”, “police should be killing less people”
But advancing those peacefully don’t seem to work
I mean, we could wait another 2 generations for all the boomers and Gen X’s to die out
Electorally speaking, that might do it
It’s part of what pushed our politics to the right, when the silent and greatest generations were aging out of the electorate
But somehow, I don’t think “wait for 2 generations of people to die of old age and maybe you can have some good things” is really ethical (and it may not even be feasible)

I think we probably entrenched it for at least 2 extra generations beyond what we already feared.

[Vassenor]

And so minorities should just shut up and be grateful, because anything else will just be used as an excuse to make things worse.

No, they should work peacefully and through the law.

Because in a might makes right situation, minorities aren’t going to win.

So why don't you start by explaining when that has actually worked throughout history.

[Kowani]

“After the past 2 and a half centuries of being shit on by everyone, our response was remarkably non-violent with exceedingly few instances of violence despite these being the largest protests since the ones that ended Jim Crow”
What do you mean, historical context is important

Historical context is very important. It's exceedingly important.

One of the exceedingly important understandings from historical context is that when you lash out and attack the uninvolved

"uninvolved"
who the fuck is uninvolved here, besides literal children? immigrants who can't vote, maybe?
the small business owner who votes for a mayor advocating for lower taxes because he wants slightly greater profits is just as culpable in the harm that'll cause as the neo-nazi voting for the law and order candidate because he knows that'll hurt minorities more
and in case you did not notice, the...vast majority of politicians-regardless of party-since LBJ have been implementing those policies-state, local, and federal
rollbacks of programs intended to make people's lives better, the creation of programs targeted at making things harder for minorities, laws designed to separate and keep minorities out of white communities
saying "well i had nothing to do with this", it's not just false, it's willfully ignorant
i'm not saying "you voted for Reagan once in the 80's therefore we can take your TV"
that's insanely dumb
but there is no such thing as an "uninvolved" person

with the intent of scaring them into compliance with your demands, it tends to make them involved. And not in a good way.

i doubt that
or more accurately, i doubt it is as large of a factor as you say it is
see, that's the thing
there's no way for you to wriggle around the fact that for the past half century, most of the protests were peaceful
there have been demonstrations, organized political pressure campaigns, specialized interest groups lobbying behind the scenes to try and make things better
they have been ignored at best, when they do not actually inspire push-back
there is an uncomfortable truth at the heart of america, and it is that there is a large subset of americans who are, frankly, opposed to improvement in the status of black and hispanic americans as a group, regardless of how peacefully they go about it

Personally, I’m a fan of the idea that “people shouldn’t be unfairly condemned to a life of poverty”, “police should be killing less people”
But advancing those peacefully don’t seem to work
I mean, we could wait another 2 generations for all the boomers and Gen X’s to die out
Electorally speaking, that might do it
It’s part of what pushed our politics to the right, when the silent and greatest generations were aging out of the electorate
But somehow, I don’t think “wait for 2 generations of people to die of old age and maybe you can have some good things” is really ethical (and it may not even be feasible)

I think we probably entrenched it for at least 2 extra generations beyond what we already feared.

almost certainly, yes

[Fahran]

It was later estimated that between May 26 and August 22, 93% of individual protests were "peaceful and nondestructive"[36] and The Washington Post estimated that by the end of June, 96.3% of 7,305 demonstrations involved no injuries and no property damage.

7% is not a negligible percentage of violent demonstrations. That's 511 violent demonstrations and 270 where injuries or property damage were present. Given the collective cost of violent demonstrations in the past couple years, the harm hasn't really been negligible. We've had deaths, both tied directly and indirectly to these riots and looting, and we've had serious property damage in the hundreds of millions of dollars. Rioting may well be "defensive", though some research seems to suggest that it's often more a case of opportunism by criminals, Black Bloc types, and white nationalists, but nobody on the receiving end has an interest in not snuffing out violent behavior when it arises.

Nobody wants to get robbed. Nobody wants to put up with the risk of being hurt or killed. It doesn't matter how just you think your cause is.

[Galloism]

Historical context is very important. It's exceedingly important.

One of the exceedingly important understandings from historical context is that when you lash out and attack the uninvolved

"uninvolved"
who the fuck is uninvolved here, besides literal children? immigrants who can't vote, maybe?
the small business owner who votes for a mayor advocating for lower taxes because he wants slightly greater profits is just as culpable in the harm that'll cause as the neo-nazi voting for the law and order candidate because he knows that'll hurt minorities more
and in case you did not notice, the...vast majority of politicians-regardless of party-since LBJ have been implementing those policies-state, local, and federal
rollbacks of programs intended to make people's lives better, the creation of programs targeted at making things harder for minorities, laws designed to separate and keep minorities out of white communities
saying "well i had nothing to do with this", it's not just false, it's willfully ignorant
i'm not saying "you voted for Reagan once in the 80's therefore we can take your TV"
that's insanely dumb
but there is no such thing as an "uninvolved" person

Daily reminder it was mostly minority and immigrant owned stuff that burned.

with the intent of scaring them into compliance with your demands, it tends to make them involved. And not in a good way.

i doubt that
or more accurately, i doubt it is as large of a factor as you say it is
see, that's the thing
there's no way for you to wriggle around the fact that for the past half century, most of the protests were peaceful
there have been demonstrations, organized political pressure campaigns, specialized interest groups lobbying behind the scenes to try and make things better
they have been ignored at best, when they do not actually inspire push-back
there is an uncomfortable truth at the heart of america, and it is that there is a large subset of americans who are, frankly, opposed to improvement in the status of black and hispanic americans as a group, regardless of how peacefully they go about it

Yeah, well... turns out we're losing the argument on this over time.





https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ho ... m-so-hard/

I think we probably entrenched it for at least 2 extra generations beyond what we already feared.

almost certainly, yes

Probably wasn't a good idea to entrench such problems for the rest of our natural lives.

[Galloism]

7% is not a negligible percentage of violent demonstrations. That's 511 violent demonstrations and 270 where injuries or property damage were present. Given the collective cost of violent demonstrations in the past couple years, the harm hasn't really been negligible. We've had deaths, both tied directly and indirectly to these riots and looting, and we've had serious property damage in the hundreds of millions of dollars. Rioting may well be "defensive", though some research seems to suggest that it's often more a case of opportunism by criminals, Black Bloc types, and white nationalists, but nobody on the receiving end has an interest in not snuffing out violent behavior when it arises.

Nobody wants to get robbed. Nobody wants to put up with the risk of being hurt or killed. It doesn't matter how just you think your cause is.

Over a billion, actually, not hundreds of millions. And that was as of September of last year.

[Kowani]

"uninvolved"
who the fuck is uninvolved here, besides literal children? immigrants who can't vote, maybe?
the small business owner who votes for a mayor advocating for lower taxes because he wants slightly greater profits is just as culpable in the harm that'll cause as the neo-nazi voting for the law and order candidate because he knows that'll hurt minorities more
and in case you did not notice, the...vast majority of politicians-regardless of party-since LBJ have been implementing those policies-state, local, and federal
rollbacks of programs intended to make people's lives better, the creation of programs targeted at making things harder for minorities, laws designed to separate and keep minorities out of white communities
saying "well i had nothing to do with this", it's not just false, it's willfully ignorant
i'm not saying "you voted for Reagan once in the 80's therefore we can take your TV"
that's insanely dumb
but there is no such thing as an "uninvolved" person

Daily reminder it was mostly minority and immigrant owned stuff that burned.

do we actually have confirmation of this, or is it just anecdotal reports

i doubt that
or more accurately, i doubt it is as large of a factor as you say it is
see, that's the thing
there's no way for you to wriggle around the fact that for the past half century, most of the protests were peaceful
there have been demonstrations, organized political pressure campaigns, specialized interest groups lobbying behind the scenes to try and make things better
they have been ignored at best, when they do not actually inspire push-back
there is an uncomfortable truth at the heart of america, and it is that there is a large subset of americans who are, frankly, opposed to improvement in the status of black and hispanic americans as a group, regardless of how peacefully they go about it

Yeah, well... turns out we're losing the argument on this over time.





https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ho ... m-so-hard/

i've seen these polls
but you're attributing things to them that aren't even supported by your own article

The reasons for the decline in support among white Americans are myriad. Some experts have chalked it up to a decline in protests and less media coverage of ongoing calls for police reform, making it easier for white people to tune out issues of police brutality. It’s also worth noting, of course, that many protests for Black and civil rights start off unpopular, and people’s perception of the current movement might change over time; white Americans have gradually become more liberal on issues of race, for instance. (Public opinion tends to ebb and flow with tragedy, too, a trend we’ve seen in recent years with the debate over gun control.)

I'd personally add another element there that you're not accounting for: partisanship

Some of the biggest drops in support among white Americans occurred among older people (between the ages of 50 and 64), Republicans and men.

in fact, if i check the crosstabs on the civiqs poll, the driving feature there is "white" and "republican"-not "male" or "older"
as we know, republicans tend to be staunchly against civil rights (both the protests and the actual policies)
and while the fox grievance machine is still churning out content on BLM protests, the rest of the corporate media structure has moved on
as such, opinion moves in a way that is not favourable to anyone but the reactionaries

you know, the groups that were going to oppose it anyway

[Galloism]

Daily reminder it was mostly minority and immigrant owned stuff that burned.

do we actually have confirmation of this, or is it just anecdotal reports

It took place in neighborhoods that were primarily immigrants and minorities. Generally the people who live there own the things. And the vast majority of people interviewed on tv with their crap destroyed that I saw were immigrants. Hell, the car lot in Kenosha that became a flashpoint was owned by an Arabic immigrant.

Yeah, well... turns out we're losing the argument on this over time.





https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ho ... m-so-hard/

i've seen these polls
but you're attributing things to them that aren't even supported by your own article

The reasons for the decline in support among white Americans are myriad. Some experts have chalked it up to a decline in protests and less media coverage of ongoing calls for police reform, making it easier for white people to tune out issues of police brutality. It’s also worth noting, of course, that many protests for Black and civil rights start off unpopular, and people’s perception of the current movement might change over time; white Americans have gradually become more liberal on issues of race, for instance. (Public opinion tends to ebb and flow with tragedy, too, a trend we’ve seen in recent years with the debate over gun control.)

I'd personally add another element there that you're not accounting for: partisanship

Some of the biggest drops in support among white Americans occurred among older people (between the ages of 50 and 64), Republicans and men.

in fact, if i check the crosstabs on the civiqs poll, the driving feature there is "white" and "republican"-not "male" or "older"
as we know, republicans tend to be staunchly against civil rights (both the protests and the actual policies)
and while the fox grievance machine is still churning out content on BLM protests, the rest of the corporate media structure has moved on
as such, opinion moves in a way that is not favourable to anyone but the reactionaries

you know, the groups that were going to oppose it anyway

It's not that simple. We saw the sinking support as early as august of last year. Hell, don lemon bemoaned it on TV as the only right wing talking point that was sticking.

It's very likely Biden only won the election (instead of pulling a 2016 repeat) because he came out to condemn the violence before Election Day.

[Kowani]

do we actually have confirmation of this, or is it just anecdotal reports

It took place in neighborhoods that were primarily immigrants and minorities. Generally the people who live there own the things. And the vast majority of people interviewed on tv with their crap destroyed that I saw were immigrants. Hell, the car lot in Kenosha that became a flashpoint was owned by an Arabic immigrant.

i've seen these polls
but you're attributing things to them that aren't even supported by your own article

The reasons for the decline in support among white Americans are myriad. Some experts have chalked it up to a decline in protests and less media coverage of ongoing calls for police reform, making it easier for white people to tune out issues of police brutality. It’s also worth noting, of course, that many protests for Black and civil rights start off unpopular, and people’s perception of the current movement might change over time; white Americans have gradually become more liberal on issues of race, for instance. (Public opinion tends to ebb and flow with tragedy, too, a trend we’ve seen in recent years with the debate over gun control.)

I'd personally add another element there that you're not accounting for: partisanship

Some of the biggest drops in support among white Americans occurred among older people (between the ages of 50 and 64), Republicans and men.

in fact, if i check the crosstabs on the civiqs poll, the driving feature there is "white" and "republican"-not "male" or "older"
as we know, republicans tend to be staunchly against civil rights (both the protests and the actual policies)
and while the fox grievance machine is still churning out content on BLM protests, the rest of the corporate media structure has moved on
as such, opinion moves in a way that is not favourable to anyone but the reactionaries

you know, the groups that were going to oppose it anyway

It's not that simple. We saw the sinking support as early as august of last year. Hell, don lemon bemoaned it on TV as the only right wing talking point that was sticking.

It's very likely Biden only won the election (instead of pulling a 2016 repeat) because he came out to condemn the violence before Election Day.

highly unlikely
so, biden publicly condemned the violence at several points: the end of may, early june, late july, and late august
but his presidential voting intention stayed remarkably stable during all of that time
if the protests had any impact on the election, it was almost certainly to Biden's benefit-by helping mobilize voters against trump, for whom the clumsy handling of it was a major handicap

Trump's recent emphasis on the protests in cities like Kenosha and Portland, Ore., isn't exactly to his political benefit. Despite Trump's attempts to cast himself as the law-and-order candidate since George Floyd's killing in May, the POLITICO/Morning Consult poll shows more voters trust former Vice President Joe Biden over Trump to handle public safety, 47 percent to 39 percent.

Voters also prefer Biden on race relations by a 19-point margin. Though a narrow majority of voters still view the Black Lives Matter movement favorably, bipartisan support has eroded over the past two months, as Trump has encouraged police violence against protesters, called the Black Lives Matter movement a “symbol of hate,” “discriminatory,” “Marxist” and “bad for Black people.”

[The Black Forrest]

Hmmmm? So how have you been oppressed? Have you had reason to fear the police over a traffic stop?

Yes.

As a man, I am approximately 30 times as likely to be killed as a woman on account of my gender compared with an average woman (and about 20 times as likely as a black woman). It generally involves tensing up, making sure my hands are always in clear view, announcing my intentions clearly and plainly if I'm going to reach for any object, and doing so slowly.

Was that a serious question?

Hmmm? I haven’t heard about MRAs getting abused by police.

[Galloism]

Yes.

As a man, I am approximately 30 times as likely to be killed as a woman on account of my gender compared with an average woman (and about 20 times as likely as a black woman). It generally involves tensing up, making sure my hands are always in clear view, announcing my intentions clearly and plainly if I'm going to reach for any object, and doing so slowly.

Was that a serious question?

Hmmm? I haven’t heard about MRAs getting abused by police.

I didn't say as an MRA (also wouldn't make sense, as it is neither an obvious characteristic nor one I possess). I said as a man.

You've never heard of a man getting abused by police? Have you ever heard of George Floyd? Adam Toledo? Daniel Shaver?

[The Black Forrest]

Hmmm? I haven’t heard about MRAs getting abused by police.

I didn't say as an MRA (also wouldn't make sense, as it is neither an obvious characteristic nor one I possess). I said as a man.

You've never heard of a man getting abused by police? Have you ever heard of George Floyd? Adam Toledo? Daniel Shaver?

Of course. Are you putting yourself into their situation? Unless you are a non-white; it’s a little silly to do so.

Much as we like to belive the US is more color blind; we have moved backwards a few years…..

[Kowani]

I didn't say as an MRA (also wouldn't make sense, as it is neither an obvious characteristic nor one I possess). I said as a man.

You've never heard of a man getting abused by police? Have you ever heard of George Floyd? Adam Toledo? Daniel Shaver?

Of course. Are you putting yourself into their situation? Unless you are a non-white; it’s a little silly to do so.

Much as we like to belive the US is more color blind; we have moved backwards a few years…..

...daniel shaver is white
or
was white, i guess
he's kinda dead
cops murdered him

[Galloism]

I didn't say as an MRA (also wouldn't make sense, as it is neither an obvious characteristic nor one I possess). I said as a man.

You've never heard of a man getting abused by police? Have you ever heard of George Floyd? Adam Toledo? Daniel Shaver?

Of course. Are you putting yourself into their situation? Unless you are a non-white; it’s a little silly to do so.

Much as we like to belive the US is more color blind; we have moved backwards a few years…..

Daniel Shaver was white, and Adam Toledo was white hispanic.

The #1 risk factor to being killed by police is being male. #2 is being black.

The data is absolutely crystal clear on this front.



So yes. This is a reasonable fear I possess as a man.

[Galloism]

Of course. Are you putting yourself into their situation? Unless you are a non-white; it’s a little silly to do so.

Much as we like to belive the US is more color blind; we have moved backwards a few years…..

...daniel shaver is white
or
was white, i guess
he's kinda dead
cops murdered him

Notably after saying out loud they were going to murder him.

Then got acquitted.

Then reinstated to the force.

Then retired with a disability pension claiming PTSD caused by murdering Daniel Shaver.

[Kowani]

...daniel shaver is white
or
was white, i guess
he's kinda dead
cops murdered him

Notably after saying out loud they were going to murder him.

Then got acquitted.

Then reinstated to the force.

Then retired with a disability pension claiming PTSD caused by murdering Daniel Shaver.

you know
it's that last one that really drives it home how fucking broken police "accountability" is
i laugh because i am all out of tears

[The Black Forrest]

Of course. Are you putting yourself into their situation? Unless you are a non-white; it’s a little silly to do so.

Much as we like to belive the US is more color blind; we have moved backwards a few years…..

...daniel shaver is white
or
was white, i guess
he's kinda dead
cops murdered him

Wait…..that was that wereass hallway shooting by a tac team right? He was drunk wearing basketball shorts and they wanted him to crawl backwards to them. His pants kept sliding down. One or two warnings after he tried to adjust them and then guy shot him several times. That was without question murder. Anyway.

I could be pulled over and a black man could be pulled over. Who is in more danger?