US Anti-Police Protests and Riots Thread III

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Yes, it seems the cop had no good options...

And that's what matters. You think I like the fact that a 15 year old was shot and killed? No, I don't, but this is hardly an instance of police brutality. Tragic, yes, but there isn't this obvious option that the officer had at the time.

This wasn't a murder. It was a tragedy but the police involved don't deserve to be Punished, and for all we know they did not enjoy having to do this.

[Omniabstracta]

Spoken like someone who believes pepper spray from more than 10 feet, and away from the facial openings, is actually effective.



Spoken like someone who has never had their life in danger.

Except, if you had bothered to actually review the case instead of exposing your ignorance on it, you would realize the girl wasn't trying to stab him but another girl. All of this, including the fact she was rearing back to stab her, is on video.

And a taser wouldn't work either? Who is this girl, wonderwoman?

To be fair, a taser is 90% pain compliance, and the adrenaline rush and exhilaration associated with charged situations like a multiple-person fight and running with a knife can override a lot of its usefulness as an instrument to immediately disable somebody. I’m not at all defending what happened, and I think nonlethal force and deescalation should’ve been used to better effect earlier, it’s just that tasers aren’t guaranteed as an instant total knockout or able to stop somebody in their tracks on a dime or something.

[Senkaku]

I mean, maybe in terms of the cop's personal culpability, but like... how the hell did she end up in this situation? How do you run a society so badly that potentially mentally ill 15-year-olds are brawling in the street with knives instead of... receiving the care and support they need to be healthy and safe?

Another fantastically good question. All I really know about things before the, well, let's call it "the event" is that she was apparently in foster care at that time.

There's been some speculation that she made the 911 call in the first place, but I haven't gotten any proof to confirm or disprove that yet.

I've seen variously that she was reporting girls fighting outside or reporting that she was being abused at home... whatever the case may be, it's not really a positive reflection on the American state that its most significant interaction with her appears to have been sending an armed security agent to kill her when her situation got so bad that she became a mortal threat to someone else.

It's deadly force is what it is, just so you know.

It's not AS deadly as shooting someone four times of course, but kicking someone in the head as hard as you can is deadly force under any legal standard.

The "as deadly" part would be what I refer to, yes, I'm not under some impression that massive cranial trauma is good for you.

[Greater Miami Shores]

Spoken like someone who believes pepper spray from more than 10 feet, and away from the facial openings, is actually effective.



Spoken like someone who has never had their life in danger.

Except, if you had bothered to actually review the case instead of exposing your ignorance on it, you would realize the girl wasn't trying to stab him but another girl. All of this, including the fact she was rearing back to stab her, is on video.

And a taser wouldn't work either? Who is this girl, wonderwoman?

Who is this girl, wonderwoman? Massive lol attack, I RP Paradise Island Nation and Paradise Island Nation State all related to Wonderwomen.

[Senkaku]

Yes, it seems the cop had no good options...

And that's what matters. You think I like the fact that a 15 year old was shot and killed? No, I don't, but this is hardly an instance of police brutality. Tragic, yes, but there isn't this obvious option that the officer had at the time.

I mean, I think it is relevant, and I don't think that's the only thing that matters here, since part of the debate over policing is about trying to come up with alternative ways of maintaining public safety that aren't just "do nothing for years and then shoot people once they become uncontainable problems." Part of a serious reformist or abolitionist vision necessarily has to consider how she got into this situation in the first place, and how the state's prioritization of funding for security forces over social services contributes to situations where cops are basically forced to kill kids.

[The Reformed American Republic]

And that's what matters. You think I like the fact that a 15 year old was shot and killed? No, I don't, but this is hardly an instance of police brutality. Tragic, yes, but there isn't this obvious option that the officer had at the time.

I mean, I think it is relevant, and I don't think that's the only thing that matters here, since part of the debate over policing is about trying to come up with alternative ways of maintaining public safety that aren't just "do nothing for years and then shoot people once they become uncontainable problems." Part of a serious reformist or abolitionist vision necessarily has to consider how she got into this situation in the first place, and how the state's prioritization of funding for security forces over social services contributes to situations where cops are basically forced to kill kids.

I'm against abolitionism; I think it is pie in the sky. This is an example of why we need better social programs, but that is a separate issue. I'm not this libertarian who thinks that the lack of public services are a good thing.

[Senkaku]

I mean, I think it is relevant, and I don't think that's the only thing that matters here, since part of the debate over policing is about trying to come up with alternative ways of maintaining public safety that aren't just "do nothing for years and then shoot people once they become uncontainable problems." Part of a serious reformist or abolitionist vision necessarily has to consider how she got into this situation in the first place, and how the state's prioritization of funding for security forces over social services contributes to situations where cops are basically forced to kill kids.

I'm against abolitionism; I think it is pie in the sky. This is an example of why we need better social programs, but that is a separate issue.

But it clearly isn't a separate issue. This seems like a pretty clear case where better access to better social services might've helped her avoid this whole situation. Instead, it's not entirely clear what happened, but it's very clear she was left in a pretty unsafe environment.

[Greater Miami Shores]

And that's what matters. You think I like the fact that a 15 year old was shot and killed? No, I don't, but this is hardly an instance of police brutality. Tragic, yes, but there isn't this obvious option that the officer had at the time.

I mean, I think it is relevant, and I don't think that's the only thing that matters here, since part of the debate over policing is about trying to come up with alternative ways of maintaining public safety that aren't just "do nothing for years and then shoot people once they become uncontainable problems." Part of a serious reformist or abolitionist vision necessarily has to consider how she got into this situation in the first place, and how the state's prioritization of funding for security forces over social services contributes to situations where cops are basically forced to kill kids.

Those are your views and your concerns and of those who strongly agree with you, not my views, our views and those who strongly agree with us. No one's posts, views and words are irrelevant, they are all relevant to the persons who posted them just like yours, that is what counts too them, and I think what counts to you and all of us. It is on my new sig.

[The Reformed American Republic]

I'm against abolitionism; I think it is pie in the sky. This is an example of why we need better social programs, but that is a separate issue.

But it clearly isn't a separate issue. This seems like a pretty clear case where better access to better social services might've helped her avoid this whole situation. Instead, it's not entirely clear what happened, but it's very clear she was left in a pretty unsafe environment.

It has nothing to do with how our police function or how police handle things. Other arms of the state put her in that environment because our welfare system is incredibly inadequate. This case shows the need for more and better welfare systems, not a problem with our police force.

[Galloism]

Another fantastically good question. All I really know about things before the, well, let's call it "the event" is that she was apparently in foster care at that time.

There's been some speculation that she made the 911 call in the first place, but I haven't gotten any proof to confirm or disprove that yet.

I've seen variously that she was reporting girls fighting outside or reporting that she was being abused at home... whatever the case may be, it's not really a positive reflection on the American state that its most significant interaction with her appears to have been sending an armed security agent to kill her when her situation got so bad that she became a mortal threat to someone else.

Well, we have the 911 call.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D949hFJecIA

I don't know if it was her that made the call or not. I'm also not really clear on what was said, other than she gave the address, something about stabbing and putting hands on her grandma.

The "as deadly" part would be what I refer to, yes, I'm not under some impression that massive cranial trauma is good for you.

Not generally no.

[Senkaku]

But it clearly isn't a separate issue. This seems like a pretty clear case where better access to better social services might've helped her avoid this whole situation. Instead, it's not entirely clear what happened, but it's very clear she was left in a pretty unsafe environment.

It has nothing to do with how our police function or how police handle things. Other arms of the state put her in that environment because our welfare system is incredibly inadequate. This case shows the need for more and better welfare systems, not a problem with our police force.

Doesn't it show that the police are being asked to use force to resolve more complicated social problems that they are fundamentally unequipped to handle? It shows both that our social services are woefully inadequate, and that we have a mentality of just defaulting to leaving issues we don't want to address to the police. Hell, just from a worker's perspective, if you were a cop, wouldn't it strike you as a problem with the clarity of the force's mission that you could be periodically asked to go shoot some kid having a violent outburst because they'd been stuck in an unsafe situation and neglected by the state? I would assume that would be extremely traumatic and that cops would be angry that they or their colleagues were being unfairly tasked with doing such horrible and avoidable work.

[The Reformed American Republic]

It has nothing to do with how our police function or how police handle things. Other arms of the state put her in that environment because our welfare system is incredibly inadequate. This case shows the need for more and better welfare systems, not a problem with our police force.

Doesn't it show that the police are being asked to use force to resolve more complicated social problems that they are fundamentally unequipped to handle? It shows both that our social services are woefully inadequate, and that we have a mentality of just defaulting to leaving issues we don't want to address to the police. Hell, just from a worker's perspective, if you were a cop, wouldn't it strike you as a problem with the clarity of the force's mission that you could be periodically asked to go shoot some kid having a violent outburst because they'd been stuck in an unsafe situation and neglected by the state? I would assume that would be extremely traumatic and that cops would be angry that they or their colleagues were being unfairly tasked with doing such horrible and avoidable work.

Yes, we ask too much of the police, but that's a welfare issue. Instead of a good welfare system, we throw it at the cops. What I'm arguing against is this being police brutality and misconduct, which it is not.

I think we're arguing over semantics.

[Galloism]

White Cops shouldn't police Black neighborhoods, Black Cops shouldn't police White neighborhoods; let's do community policing as previously called for by elements of the BLM movement.

I'd actually posit the existence of "white neighborhoods" and "black neighborhoods" is a significant problem in of itself.

[The Reformed American Republic]

White Cops shouldn't police Black neighborhoods, Black Cops shouldn't police White neighborhoods; let's do community policing as previously called for by elements of the BLM movement.

I'd actually posit the existence of "white neighborhoods" and "black neighborhoods" is a significant problem in of itself.

They are, but this country is pretty broken.

[Kowani]

White Cops shouldn't police Black neighborhoods, Black Cops shouldn't police White neighborhoods; let's do community policing as previously called for by elements of the BLM movement.

I'd actually posit the existence of "white neighborhoods" and "black neighborhoods" is a significant problem in of itself.

IT ISSSSSSSSSSSSS
i'll probably do something more in-depth on it later, but the racial/ethnic segregation of america is egregiously bad for practically every metric and outcome you can think-of

[Greater Miami Shores]

I've seen variously that she was reporting girls fighting outside or reporting that she was being abused at home... whatever the case may be, it's not really a positive reflection on the American state that its most significant interaction with her appears to have been sending an armed security agent to kill her when her situation got so bad that she became a mortal threat to someone else.

Well, we have the 911 call.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D949hFJecIA

I don't know if it was her that made the call or not. I'm also not really clear on what was said, other than she gave the address, something about stabbing and putting hands on her grandma.

The "as deadly" part would be what I refer to, yes, I'm not under some impression that massive cranial trauma is good for you.

Not generally no.

Well, there are always two sides of the story, well we all know the other side of the story.

[Senkaku]

I'd actually posit the existence of "white neighborhoods" and "black neighborhoods" is a significant problem in of itself.

IT ISSSSSSSSSSSSS
i'll probably do something more in-depth on it later, but the racial/ethnic segregation of america is egregiously bad for practically every metric and outcome you can think-of

it's honestly so exhausting that in a country allegedly full of bright and well-resourced people, who've figured out issues like segregation are detrimental to the nation in a whole host of ways (and have extensive documentation at their disposal to prove it and give them ideas for how to address it), we usually just sort of end up going "well, some people might be annoyed or inconvenienced, so I guess we can't do anything"

[Neanderthaland]

That guy could be on drugs and he's a grown man. You can't seriously think a teen girl is gonna get tased and just look down at the dart then continue her rampage, right?

How do you know the girl in question was not on drugs or that the man in question was? What exactly makes you think a Tazer would've worked perfectly in this situation as compared to, say, this situation? Congratulations, your Taser failed and you now have a dead victim and your perpetuator is not subdued and still has a deadly weapon.

Assuming that the less lethal option will axiomatically fail, and immediately resorting to deadly force, defeats the purpose of having a less lethal option.

[Neanderthaland]

Assuming that the less lethal option will axiomatically fail, and immediately resorting to deadly force, defeats the purpose of having a less lethal option.

And what you forget it is that it is just that: an option, for when the situation calls for it. The girl was attempting to actively murder someone and relying on less than lethal means-which isn't true for Tasers by the way-to be effective is not what the situation calls for.

Gonna have to disagree on that one. Taking down a 15 year old girl armed with a knife seems like a good time for a taser. It is unlikely to fail. It is very likely to at least distract. And if it does fail, you still have the pistol. It does not take cops long to draw and fire. As they have repeatedly proven.

Also: I said "less lethal," not "less than lethal." These are not the same thing. So if you're going to be pedantic at me, maybe read carefully.

[Kowani]

IT ISSSSSSSSSSSSS
i'll probably do something more in-depth on it later, but the racial/ethnic segregation of america is egregiously bad for practically every metric and outcome you can think-of

It keeps violence down, for one.

the exact opposite, long-term

IT ISSSSSSSSSSSSS
i'll probably do something more in-depth on it later, but the racial/ethnic segregation of america is egregiously bad for practically every metric and outcome you can think-of

it's honestly so exhausting that in a country allegedly full of bright and well-resourced people, who've figured out issues like segregation are detrimental to the nation in a whole host of ways (and have extensive documentation at their disposal to prove it and give them ideas for how to address it), we usually just sort of end up going "well, some people might be annoyed or inconvenienced, so I guess we can't do anything"

the worst portion is the despair of pushback, i agree

[Neanderthaland]

Gonna have to disagree on that one. Taking down a 15 year old girl armed with a knife seems like a good time for a taser. It is unlikely to fail. It is very likely to at least distract. And if it does fail, you still have the pistol. It does not take cops long to draw and fire. As they have repeatedly proven. Also: I said "less lethal," not "less than lethal." These are not the same thing. So if you're going to be pedantic at me, maybe read carefully.

Might want to educate yourself before making dumb claims:

Tasers have become an essential tool for police, but how effective are they? An APM Reports investigation finds that officers in some big cities rated Tasers as unreliable up to 40 percent of the time, and in three large departments, newer models were less effective than older ones. In 258 cases over three years, a Taser failed to subdue someone who was then shot and killed by police.

Given she was rearing back to stab the other girl in the gut when he did shoot, yeah, any delay would've resulted in a dead victim.

It's weird how the taser working (which is the most probable outcome), is not even considered. And an immediate fatal stab wound (which is unlikely) is 100% guaranteed in your mind.

I also like how you ignored the part where your own link said, "a Taser failed to subdue someone who was then shot and killed by police." Which, as I suggested, is probably what would have happened if the taser didn't work.

I also also like how you ignore the possibility that bullets shot at the girl could easily have hit the victim. I'm mean, she was literally right behind her.


Now I'm not suggesting that the police in this instance should be charged with anything. But I'm not convinced that a taser wouldn't have been an effective, or even more effective, tool in this instance. And I've noticed that there is a reliable cadre of posters on NSG (yourself included) who always advocate for maximum lethal force in every instance. And I wonder about that.

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

the exact opposite, long-term

Utterly false, in all terms.

Name one instance in which segregating two groups made them more amicable towards each other.

[The Alma Mater]

Utterly false, in all terms.

Name one instance in which segregating two groups made them more amicable towards each other.

Kids moving out of the house. They often get a much better relation with their parents afterwards.

[Dogmeat]

It's weird how the taser working (which is the most probable outcome), is not even considered. And an immediate fatal stab wound (which is unlikely) is 100% guaranteed in your mind.

It's notable that the complete opposite is your own, with zero evidence.

also like how you ignored the part where your own link said, "a Taser failed to subdue someone who was then shot and killed by police." Which, as I suggested, is probably what would have happened if the taser didn't work.

She was reared back to stab when he shot her. Somehow the officer is supposed to taser, see if it works and then pull his gun and shoot her in that length of time before her arm makes one motion while he has to make at least three? Come on now.

I also also like how you ignore the possibility that bullets shot at the girl could easily have hit the victim. I'm mean, she was literally right behind her.

I like how I'm not having to deal with a hypothetical because we know for a fact this didn't happen because the officer used his training to prevent such.

Now I'm not suggesting that the police in this instance should be charged with anything. But I'm not convinced that a taser wouldn't have been an effective, or even more effective, tool in this instance. And I've noticed that there is a reliable cadre of posters on NSG (yourself included) who always advocate for maximum lethal force in every instance. And I wonder about that.

Of course you believe that because critical thinking seems to be something you don't want to employ given your innate zealotry.

"I think maybe a taser might have worked better here" = "innate zealotry."

Sure thing bud.

[The Black Forrest]

How exactly is pepper spray supposed to work when her back is facing him at the time of the shooting?

spoken like someone who's never been pepper sprayed tbh, I seriously doubt a 15-year-old girl would require massive direct application to the face for it to take effect

And watch this video and tell me Tasers always work.

You would think a public servant who's supposedly dedicated their career to putting their life on the line to protect their community would be willing to accept a slightly higher risk of getting stabbed and use a taser instead of mowing down a 15-year-old girl but ok

She charged by the cop. It was reflex he pulled his weapon. Time would have been lost if he went for the pepper spray and MAYBE spraying the back of her head might have slowed her; it would have prevented the stabbing.