US Anti-Police Protests and Riots Thread III

[Senkaku]

That’s not what WRA said.

Black people weren’t black because “black” as a category of people didn’t exist.
“White” as a category of people didn’t exist back then either.

“Race” as a sociological understanding didn’t exist until after Early capitalism came about.

What about the slave trade? Doesn't that predate capitalism?

I think there's a compelling case that the transatlantic slave trade (1500s-1800s) was the birth of capitalism. I don't think you can separate the two; the wealth produced by millions of enslaved people working on New World plantations was vital in driving growth, capitalist development, and the decline of feudalism back in Europe, which in turn led to steady intensification of the extraction and export of people from Sub-Saharan Africa to drive the growing plantation economy.

TIL there was no race until capitalism. Yeah I'm sure black people weren't black. Race was only invented by capitalism to sell more slaves.

That’s not what WRA said.

Black people weren’t black because “black” as a category of people didn’t exist.
“White” as a category of people didn’t exist back then either.

“Race” as a sociological understanding didn’t exist until after Early capitalism came about.

This is a bit disingenuous, it wasn't the same as we understand it now, but it did still exist. It was less relevant because people of different races (in the modern conception) interacted less, but there was some understanding of it. Certainly, capitalist development in Europe and the transatlantic slave trade were important in developing clearer modern or pre-modern ideas about race, but those ideas did exist as the slave trade was beginning, they just weren't as clearly articulated, as widespread, or as strongly felt. I really don't think it's possible to separate the creation of a "Black" identity, and with it the start of the modern conception of race, from the slave trade, which I think itself is a pretty good place to mark the start of capitalism as a widespread world system.

Racism existed long before capitalism, bud. Capitalism is relatively recent, actually.

The big flaw in this is that we can plainly see the modern sociopolitical view of race only came into existence long after capitalism.

Well, now you have to define where you think capitalism started. The capitalism of the 1700s is quite different from the capitalism of the 1900s; I suppose you could say the views on race are too, but only in the same sense of being more developed or clearly articulated. The transatlantic slave trade is a pretty good place to mark the birth of both-- capitalism and racism have been bound since birth.

[The Emerald Legion]

No. I'm not.

well, then you're just wrong

No I'm not. Try looking up Rígsmál sometime. Racism has clearly been a thing for a very long time.

[Senkaku]

No, I think the essentialism you hold speaks very clearly to your bigotry.
But congratulations on making it visible to everyone!

Malegron is certainly going all in on race essentialism, but you're verging on class reductionism yourself here by making such clear separations between racism and capitalism and all these claims about modern ideas of race all coming downstream from capitalism, rather than being fundamental to and developed right alongside the capitalist system.

[Ancapstands]

You see, this wouldn’t be a problem if we just privatize the police.

[Alcala-Cordel]

You see, this wouldn’t be a problem if we just privatize the police.

Considering the way private police forces treated unions during the Gilded Age I think it's safe to say that would make it worse

[Sundiata]

The protests this year surrounding the death of George Floyd definitely had an emotional impact upon me. It saddens me that human beings treat one another so poorly and create systems with incentives like that. This isn't to say that people are innately bad, but truly, human beings are capable of the most unfortunate cruelty. I remember seeing portions of the clip that circulated of George Floyd's death and I was struck with heaviness of heart. It's got to stop and I'm glad that some jurisdictions are taking measures to stop this kind of flagrant abuse by authorities.

[Fahran]

Malegron is certainly going all in on race essentialism, but you're verging on class reductionism yourself here by making such clear separations between racism and capitalism and all these claims about modern ideas of race all coming downstream from capitalism, rather than being fundamental to and developed right alongside the capitalist system.

In what way is racism fundamental to capitalism? I can appreciate much of the rest of your argument, but that part seems to demand additional justification. I tend to take the view that racism and white supremacy, as we conceive of them at present, are early modern innovations since they do not neatly fit into the xenophobia and prejudices of earlier civilizations and I'd argue they precede genuine capitalism by a couple hundred years.

[Major-Tom]

You see, this wouldn’t be a problem if we just privatize the police.

Cringe.

[Page]

You see, this wouldn’t be a problem if we just privatize the police.

Privatizing the police wouldn't change anything. Currently, the police are a gang that enforce the hegemony of the rich and powerful. The only thing privatization will result in is the police no longer denying that is what they are.

[Vassenor]

You see, this wouldn’t be a problem if we just privatize the police.

[citation needed]

[Fahran]

Privatizing the police wouldn't change anything. Currently, the police are a gang that enforce the hegemony of the rich and powerful. The only thing privatization will result in is the police no longer denying that is what they are.

I think this might be a little bit reductionist...

[Kexholm Karelia]

You see, this wouldn’t be a problem if we just privatize the police.

Privatizing the police wouldn't change anything. Currently, the police are a gang that enforce the hegemony of the rich and powerful. The only thing privatization will result in is the police no longer denying that is what they are.

Police only care about protecting the rich, like in 1992 when the violent looters attacked Koreatown LA and the police abandoned it so the Koreans had to defend themselves with their own guns

[Knask]

well, then you're just wrong

No I'm not. Try looking up Rígsmál sometime. Racism has clearly been a thing for a very long time.

You are mixing up race and class, if you're invoking Rígsþula.

[Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana]

Privatizing the police wouldn't change anything. Currently, the police are a gang that enforce the hegemony of the rich and powerful. The only thing privatization will result in is the police no longer denying that is what they are.

Police only care about protecting the rich, like in 1992 when the violent looters attacked Koreatown LA and the police abandoned it so the Koreans had to defend themselves with their own guns

You are so close to being enlightened yet so far…

[Atheris]

well, then you're just wrong

No I'm not. Try looking up Rígsmál sometime. Racism has clearly been a thing for a very long time.

Rigsthula was about class, not race.

[Stylan]

Privatizing the police wouldn't change anything. Currently, the police are a gang that enforce the hegemony of the rich and powerful. The only thing privatization will result in is the police no longer denying that is what they are.

I think this might be a little bit reductionist...

Holy fucking shit. Are you fucking serious? This is like a meme some twitter globe emoji talking head would tweet.

[Greater Malegron]

You see, this wouldn’t be a problem if we just privatize the police.

Privatizing the police wouldn't change anything. Currently, the police are a gang that enforce the hegemony of the rich and powerful. The only thing privatization will result in is the police no longer denying that is what they are.

What’s the deal with socialists turning racial issues into class warfare rot?

[Vassenor]

Privatizing the police wouldn't change anything. Currently, the police are a gang that enforce the hegemony of the rich and powerful. The only thing privatization will result in is the police no longer denying that is what they are.

What’s the deal with socialists turning racial issues into class warfare rot?

As opposed to realising that there's more problems with policing as an institution than just the racism?

[The Emerald Legion]

No I'm not. Try looking up Rígsmál sometime. Racism has clearly been a thing for a very long time.

You are mixing up race and class, if you're invoking Rígsþula.

Have you ever read it? It's kind of racist as fuck.

[Greater Malegron]

What’s the deal with socialists turning racial issues into class warfare rot?

As opposed to realising that there's more problems with policing as an institution than just the racism?

White people have no right to complain about a system that was created to benefit them, and socialism is just a way for them to pretend they’re oppressed. Change my mind.

[Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana]

As opposed to realising that there's more problems with policing as an institution than just the racism?

White people have no right to complain about a system that was created to benefit them, and socialism is just a way for them to pretend they’re oppressed. Change my mind.

Socialism is a destructive movement that generally seeks to destroy all traditions, culture, and values, hence the ongoing socialist opposition to the family as the base unit of any society and nationalism, even civic nationalism

I am a disillusioned socialist myself

[Ifreann]

Privatizing the police wouldn't change anything. Currently, the police are a gang that enforce the hegemony of the rich and powerful. The only thing privatization will result in is the police no longer denying that is what they are.

What’s the deal with socialists turning racial issues into class warfare rot?

The two are pretty inextricably linked in the US.

[Loben III]

As opposed to realising that there's more problems with policing as an institution than just the racism?

White people have no right to complain about a system that was created to benefit them, and socialism is just a way for them to pretend they’re oppressed. Change my mind.

You know you might have a point with that 2nd part.

[Vassenor]

White people have no right to complain about a system that was created to benefit them, and socialism is just a way for them to pretend they’re oppressed. Change my mind.

Socialism is a destructive movement that generally seeks to destroy all traditions, culture, and values, hence the ongoing socialist opposition to the family as the base unit of any society and nationalism, even civic nationalism

I am a disillusioned socialist myself

Don't threaten me with a good time.

[Greater Malegron]

White people have no right to complain about a system that was created to benefit them, and socialism is just a way for them to pretend they’re oppressed. Change my mind.

Socialism is a destructive movement that generally seeks to destroy all traditions, culture, and values, hence the ongoing socialist opposition to the family as the base unit of any society and nationalism, even civic nationalism

I am a disillusioned socialist myself

I agree completely. Socialism is often used to erase black culture and identity.