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New compelling evidence of life on Venus

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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:31 am

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Occidens Praseodymia wrote:Perhaps the environment is so harsh on Venus that it produces the chemical reactions to produce this substance without the need of biology.

Life on Venus but not Mars?
No way.


We've already deduced that life did exist on Mars at one point. Adding Venus to the equation suggests that life at one point may have been more common in the Sol System. Who knows, perhaps there was once life on all the planets in it and only Earth got lucky enough to keep it. Or maybe some of them still do house life but we can't get there to see for sure.


Quite bold to assume that earth was lucky.
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La Paz de Los Ricos
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Postby La Paz de Los Ricos » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:37 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
We've already deduced that life did exist on Mars at one point. Adding Venus to the equation suggests that life at one point may have been more common in the Sol System. Who knows, perhaps there was once life on all the planets in it and only Earth got lucky enough to keep it. Or maybe some of them still do house life but we can't get there to see for sure.


Quite bold to assume that earth was lucky.


I think not being a barren red rock nor a pressurized hell rock makes us decently lucky.

As in, it's beyond astronomical that life has made it this far on Earth.
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Seangoli
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Postby Seangoli » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:55 am

La Paz de Los Ricos wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
Quite bold to assume that earth was lucky.


I think not being a barren red rock nor a pressurized hell rock makes us decently lucky.

As in, it's beyond astronomical that life has made it this far on Earth.


The conditions needed for life to arise in the first place on Earth would likely have been hellish in nature compared to today. Life has equally survived some pretty major catastrophes on earth, from the earth being frozen over entirely, to catastrophic calamities, and everything in between. We have also found extremophiles existing in conditions that would have been thought impossible a few decades ago. It is likely that life itself is what made the earth as temperate as it is today, by oxygenating the atmosphere which produced the protective effects against harsh solar radiation, tempering the high concentrations of poisonous gases, and largely shaping the climate itself. Prior to to this, life would have existed in a world that would be harsh and near inhospitable to modern day life in nearly any form. Meaning the earliest forms of life would have loved in a world that would be miserable, harsh, and far from what we consider "ideal".

It seems that life, once it begins, is a pretty damn hardy and can withstand a hell of a lot of external pressure and adapt to a wide array of environmental conditions. It hardly needs ideal conditions, because it can adapt to a wide array of conditions. It needs to begin somewhere, but once it does it's difficult to truly get rid of.
Last edited by Seangoli on Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:19 am

Seangoli wrote:
La Paz de Los Ricos wrote:
I think not being a barren red rock nor a pressurized hell rock makes us decently lucky.

As in, it's beyond astronomical that life has made it this far on Earth.


The conditions needed for life to arise in the first place on Earth would likely have been hellish in nature compared to today. Life has equally survived some pretty major catastrophes on earth, from the earth being frozen over entirely, to catastrophic calamities, and everything in between. We have also found extremophiles existing in conditions that would have been thought impossible a few decades ago. It is likely that life itself is what made the earth as temperate as it is today, by oxygenating the atmosphere which produced the protective effects against harsh solar radiation, tempering the high concentrations of poisonous gases, and largely shaping the climate itself. Prior to to this, life would have existed in a world that would be harsh and near inhospitable to modern day life in nearly any form. Meaning the earliest forms of life would have loved in a world that would be miserable, harsh, and far from what we consider "ideal".

It seems that life, once it begins, is a pretty damn hardy and can withstand a hell of a lot of external pressure and adapt to a wide array of environmental conditions. It hardly needs ideal conditions, because it can adapt to a wide array of conditions. It needs to begin somewhere, but once it does it's difficult to truly get rid of.

It is comforting to know Dow chemicals is hard at work in this problem area.
Last edited by Ethel mermania on Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:23 am

La Paz de Los Ricos wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
Quite bold to assume that earth was lucky.


I think not being a barren red rock nor a pressurized hell rock makes us decently lucky.

As in, it's beyond astronomical that life has made it this far on Earth.


I'm seeing dinosaurs with shoulder-mounted nuclear missiles?

Given the (perhaps debunked) idea that life began in the sea, it's hard to imagine an event which would extinguish all life. By the stage of cellular life with DNA/RNA, there was such diversity that one change (like increase in temperature, extreme acidity or alkalinity) couldn't wipe out every species, and the bursts of evolution after extinction events imply that diversity would blossom quickly to fill all the empty niches, post catastrophe.

It would have to be something really spectacular, like whatever hit proto-Earth to create our Moon. Tectonic plates stuck in a wobbling blob of magma, like corn chips, and all the oceans turned to steam.
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:29 am

Seangoli wrote: the earliest forms of life would have loved in a world that would be miserable, harsh, and far from what we consider "ideal".


Even in these terrible times, we must all remember that if a mitochondrion hadn't loved a cell "very much" we wouldn't be here today. Without love there could be no life!
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Postby HIreland » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:33 am

Earth was very lucky. There are some ~50 factors currently listed that are required for earth-type biological life. Excluding the possibility of "crazy life" which could survive in who knows what, if each of those factors was a one-in three shot the odds against life existing on a given world would exceed the estimated number of stars in the observable universe.
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Postby Seangoli » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:50 am

HIreland wrote:Earth was very lucky. There are some ~50 factors currently listed that are required for earth-type biological life. Excluding the possibility of "crazy life" which could survive in who knows what, if each of those factors was a one-in three shot the odds against life existing on a given world would exceed the estimated number of stars in the observable universe.


I find this viewpoint exceedingly narrow, and and very arm-chairy in nature with no real actual scientific backing to it. We know the earth itself has undergone some truly absurd events that should have wiped out all life by these very assumptions, yet didn't. The earth hasn't been a statically temperate ball of water for the entirety of life's existence on it. There have been periods of truly mind numbing catastrophe and dramatic shifts in climate, chemical composition, and even exceedingly harsh modern environments and life in some form or another has soldiered on admirably.

Once life exists, it is almost impossible to eradicate, and can survive in some of the most brutal conditions imaginable. Life is just a pain to actually fully eradicate, and I would imagine that any planet that did support life in the past still has some form in the present.
Last edited by Seangoli on Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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La Paz de Los Ricos
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Postby La Paz de Los Ricos » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:01 pm

Seangoli wrote:
HIreland wrote:Earth was very lucky. There are some ~50 factors currently listed that are required for earth-type biological life. Excluding the possibility of "crazy life" which could survive in who knows what, if each of those factors was a one-in three shot the odds against life existing on a given world would exceed the estimated number of stars in the observable universe.


I find this viewpoint exceedingly narrow, and and very arm-chairy in nature with no real actual scientific backing to it. We know the earth itself has undergone some truly absurd events that should have wiped out all life by these very assumptions, yet didn't. The earth hasn't been a statically temperate ball of water for the entirety of life's existence on it. There have been periods of truly mind numbing catastrophe and dramatic shifts in climate, chemical composition, and even exceedingly harsh modern environments and life in some form or another has soldiered on admirably.

Once life exists, it is almost impossible to eradicate, and can survive in some of the most brutal conditions imaginable. Life is just a pain to actually fully eradicate, and I would imagine that any planet that did support life in the past still has some form in the present.


Yeah, that makes sense.

I guess my scope of "life" was too narrow. I might have been referring mainly to flora and fauna and macro life in general, but "life" as a definition in its fullest sense goes far beyond that. Definitely could see the difficulty in killing all true life on a planet without fully destroying the planet, I guess. And Venus definitely isn't destroyed.

I guess I just meant we're lucky as hell to still be here.

Microbes really are strong little guys, aren't they?
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HIreland
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Postby HIreland » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:23 pm

Seangoli wrote:Once life exists, it is almost impossible to eradicate, and can survive in some of the most brutal conditions imaginable. Life is just a pain to actually fully eradicate, and I would imagine that any planet that did support life in the past still has some form in the present.

No. Just no. Earth has gone through some tropical periods and has had it's ice ages but in terms of temperature variations between planets, or even temperature variations between different halves of the same planet, it's nothing. And temperature is by no means the only factor of variation. Mars was doing pretty good in the temperature arena, and even had liquid water, except without sufficient volcanic activity to filter the salt out of it's oceans they became saltier than the dead sea, where even on earth no life exists, and without sufficient movement of iron in the molten core the planetary magnetic field was too weak to prevent coronal mass ejections from eroding the planet's atmosphere. Small and seemingly insignificant factors can and do wipe out life on other worlds, if it was even there in the first place (which I highly doubt).
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Postby UniversalCommons » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:50 pm

Deciding that there has been life without having found any does not make sense. You can't just find something like life which looks like it died and proclaim it was once alive. Look a rock with a spiral pattern, it must have been alive because it has triangular shapes in it.

The same is true of speculations of what exactly the phosphene is. Investigate, send a probe to Venus. Say howdy to your Venusian neighbors in the clouds.

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Postby The Horror Channel » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:09 pm

Nazis have a base on Venus, duh.

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Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:23 pm

The Horror Channel wrote:Nazis have a base on Venus, duh.

Spoilers!
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:27 pm

HIreland wrote:
Seangoli wrote:Once life exists, it is almost impossible to eradicate, and can survive in some of the most brutal conditions imaginable. Life is just a pain to actually fully eradicate, and I would imagine that any planet that did support life in the past still has some form in the present.

No. Just no. Earth has gone through some tropical periods and has had it's ice ages but in terms of temperature variations between planets, or even temperature variations between different halves of the same planet, it's nothing. And temperature is by no means the only factor of variation. Mars was doing pretty good in the temperature arena, and even had liquid water, except without sufficient volcanic activity to filter the salt out of it's oceans they became saltier than the dead sea, where even on earth no life exists, and without sufficient movement of iron in the molten core the planetary magnetic field was too weak to prevent coronal mass ejections from eroding the planet's atmosphere. Small and seemingly insignificant factors can and do wipe out life on other worlds, if it was even there in the first place (which I highly doubt).


Supported.

The extremely long-term catastrophe (from a life point of view) that happened to Mars had no 'recovery after catastrophe' period of rapid diversification of whatever life survived. Fitting the new environment is necessary, but importantly, not just one niche of it. It's diversity which gives life overall such good chances. If just one species survived a catastrophe, all its descendant species can be expected to be resistant to that kind of catastrophe again. But that one species itself, has minute chances of surviving a different type of catastrophe.

In the case of Mars, it seems there was a long term 'catastrophe' which would have gradually narrowed diversity. There just aren't many ways to survive in an environment with a wide temperature range AND no liquid water AND virtually no atmosphere AND the radiation flux from the sun. Extremophiles show us that it's possible, but they don't show us that the diversity of a decent ecosystem would survive. Whatever manages to hang in there as conditions get harsher, is vulnerable to small changes that wouldn't even rate as a catastrophe on Earth. The sun gets gradually hotter. The chemical composition of the 'soil' changes from transmutation. The 'soil' becomes more radioactive. Small changes would be the last straw.

That said, there may still be life on Mars! We must rescue it, and if possible romance it!
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Postby Kargintina the Third » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:31 pm

The Horror Channel wrote:Nazis have a base on Venus, duh.

Hey, don’t ruin the 2020 season finale
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:40 pm

Kargintina the Third wrote:
The Horror Channel wrote:Nazis have a base on Venus, duh.

Hey, don’t ruin the 2020 season finale


Yes. Nazis nuking us from Venus would be the perfect way to end the show! Send the audience back home with that warm glow.
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Postby TURTLESHROOM II » Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:10 am

HIreland wrote:Earth was very lucky. There are some ~50 factors currently listed that are required for earth-type biological life. Excluding the possibility of "crazy life" which could survive in who knows what, if each of those factors was a one-in three shot the odds against life existing on a given world would exceed the estimated number of stars in the observable universe.


It's not luck. This is my greatest argument for God.
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Postby Kowani » Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:14 am

TURTLESHROOM II wrote:
HIreland wrote:Earth was very lucky. There are some ~50 factors currently listed that are required for earth-type biological life. Excluding the possibility of "crazy life" which could survive in who knows what, if each of those factors was a one-in three shot the odds against life existing on a given world would exceed the estimated number of stars in the observable universe.


It's not luck. This is my greatest argument for God.

…That’s a really bad argument.
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Postby The Alma Mater » Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:31 am

HIreland wrote:Earth was very lucky. There are some ~50 factors currently listed that are required for earth-type biological life. Excluding the possibility of "crazy life" which could survive in who knows what, if each of those factors was a one-in three shot the odds against life existing on a given world would exceed the estimated number of stars in the observable universe.


You are slightly underestimating the number of stars. With those odds it is a certainty.
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:39 am

TURTLESHROOM II wrote:
HIreland wrote:Earth was very lucky. There are some ~50 factors currently listed that are required for earth-type biological life. Excluding the possibility of "crazy life" which could survive in who knows what, if each of those factors was a one-in three shot the odds against life existing on a given world would exceed the estimated number of stars in the observable universe.


It's not luck. This is my greatest argument for God.


Luck. Or God.

Luck is much more likely. Because luck is lucky! :)
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:51 am

Kowani wrote:
TURTLESHROOM II wrote:
It's not luck. This is my greatest argument for God.

…That’s a really bad argument.


I know right.
Consider: the human brain is unable to comprehend the whole history of evolution on Earth.

Give a brain a break.
It takes a really exceptional mind to delve into vast complexity, and not recoil in horror.

I am so small.
And it is so big.
It was ever thus.
And will always be.
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Postby The Alma Mater » Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:53 am

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
TURTLESHROOM II wrote:
It's not luck. This is my greatest argument for God.


Luck. Or God.

Luck is much more likely. Because luck is lucky! :)

And a lady. Bonuspoints.
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:20 am

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Kowani wrote:…That’s a really bad argument.


I know right.
Consider: the human brain is unable to comprehend the whole history of evolution on Earth.

Give a brain a break.
It takes a really exceptional mind to delve into vast complexity, and not recoil in horror.

You don’t need to understand the whole evolutionary history. I don’t need to know what came after Trilobites on the evolutionary tree. Understanding the mechanism is much more important.
I am so small.
And it is so big.
It was ever thus.
And will always be.

...What?
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UniversalCommons
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Postby UniversalCommons » Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:12 am

I thought the nazis had a base on the dark side of the moon. You must be talking about the reptoids which like to hunt the Venusian sporofogobopsalusus.

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