[Abortion Thread] (POLL 4) A compromising position...

[Garkland]

I used to be pro life. But after analyzing myself and really thinking about it, it truly is a terrible thing. I would not be surprised that in the next 50 years it becomes socially and legally wrong .

Being pro-life would be against the law? That's going too far.

And you are pro-choice? You certainly don't seem like it considering you want women who get abortions to be considered murderers...

It was more of a "I really honestly don't care, yes I may personally disagree but live how you want to live" to a "We must do something about this."
It was a laidback moderate pro choice, although eventually became pro life.

[The Marlborough]

Should a rape victim have to carry a child to term that they don’t want?

I don't think it's right to murder the innocent party in this instance. If anyone is to be killed for instances like this, it ought to be the rapist (but even then I'm iffy on the death penalty). I do think the woman should receive an abundance of care and honestly would be incredibly understanding for wishing to put the child up for adoption.

[Atheris]

What right do you have to make a medical decision for someone else?

?

You just repeated the same thing

Because you didn't answer the question, I assume.

[Kexholm Karelia]

Should a rape victim have to carry a child to term that they don’t want?

I don't think it's right to murder the innocent party in this instance. If anyone is to be killed for instances like this, it ought to be the rapist (but even then I'm iffy on the death penalty). I do think the woman should receive an abundance of care and honestly would be incredibly understanding for wishing to put the child up for adoption.

Adoption is the key. Around 74% of abortions happen for no reason other than the mother is "not ready for the child," which is where adoption comes in to play, adoption is always the better option compared to murder

Now the rape issue is tricky, one could argue this problem could be solved by developing better incubator technologies

[San Lumen]

Should a rape victim have to carry a child to term that they don’t want?

I don't think it's right to murder the innocent party in this instance. If anyone is to be killed for instances like this, it ought to be the rapist (but even then I'm iffy on the death penalty). I do think the woman should receive an abundance of care and honestly would be incredibly understanding for wishing to put the child up for adoption.

Therefore they should be forced to have a child they don’t want?

[The Marlborough]

I don't think it's right to murder the innocent party in this instance. If anyone is to be killed for instances like this, it ought to be the rapist (but even then I'm iffy on the death penalty). I do think the woman should receive an abundance of care and honestly would be incredibly understanding for wishing to put the child up for adoption.

Adoption is the key. Around 74% of abortions happen for no reason other than the mother is "not ready for the child," which is where adoption comes in to play, adoption is always the better option compared to murder

Now the rape issue is tricky, one could argue this problem could be solved by developing better incubator technologies

Yeah or artificial wombs in which case this whole debate would become redundant.

[The New California Republic]

Ideally only when the mother’s life is threatened, and in the cases of rape and incest. All of these combine are less than 11% of abortions, however

See, that doesn't really make sense. How is it less "murder" to abort a fetus resulting from rape than it is to abort any other fetus?

Yup. It has been pointed out several times in this thread and its previous iterations that deeming abortions murder, but then making exceptions to it where it's OK, is contradictory. If you are going to go down the "abortion is murder" route then at least take it to its ultimate and more rational conclusion by advocating banning it completely, instead of trying to have your cake and eat it by calling it "murder" but then saying it's OK to murder it in situations X, Y, and Z.

---

I used to be pro life. But after analyzing myself and really thinking about it, it truly is a terrible thing. I would not be surprised that in the next 50 years it becomes socially and legally wrong .

Being pro-life would be against the law? That's going too far.

And you are pro-choice? You certainly don't seem like it considering you want women who get abortions to be considered murderers...

It was more of a "I really honestly don't care, yes I may personally disagree but live how you want to live" to a "We must do something about this."
It was a laidback moderate pro choice, although eventually became pro life.

Wait, you are contradicting yourself. You said you used to be pro-life, now you are saying that you used to be pro-choice and you are now pro-life?

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

I don't think it's right to murder the innocent party in this instance. If anyone is to be killed for instances like this, it ought to be the rapist (but even then I'm iffy on the death penalty). I do think the woman should receive an abundance of care and honestly would be incredibly understanding for wishing to put the child up for adoption.

Adoption is the key. Around 74% of abortions happen for no reason other than the mother is "not ready for the child," which is where adoption comes in to play, adoption is always the better option compared to murder

Now the rape issue is tricky, one could argue this problem could be solved by developing better incubator technologies

People with uteruses deserve to have to right to not be forced to give birth against their will.

[Garkland]

I don't think it's right to murder the innocent party in this instance. If anyone is to be killed for instances like this, it ought to be the rapist (but even then I'm iffy on the death penalty). I do think the woman should receive an abundance of care and honestly would be incredibly understanding for wishing to put the child up for adoption.

Therefore they should be forced to have a child they don’t want?

Like that one saying “one mans trash is another man’s treasure.”
A innocent life shouldn’t have to die for the wants of the women. If they don’t want their child they can give it to someone who does want it or get support from the government.

[The New California Republic]

If they don’t want their child they can give it to someone who does want it or get support from the government.

That does nothing to stop the woman having to carry the fetus to term against her will for 9 months.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

See, that doesn't really make sense. How is it less "murder" to abort a fetus resulting from rape than it is to abort any other fetus?

Yup. It has been pointed out several times in this thread and its previous iterations that deeming abortions murder, but then making exceptions to it where it's OK, is contradictory. If you are going to go down the "abortion is murder" then at least take it to its ultimate and more rational conclusion by advocating banning it completely, instead of trying to have your cake and eat it by calling it "murder" but then saying it's OK to murder it in situations X, Y, and Z.

Damn it's almost like being pro-life is just a way to control the bodies of others and dictate morality by treating them as lesser. Makes you think, huh?

[Garkland]

See, that doesn't really make sense. How is it less "murder" to abort a fetus resulting from rape than it is to abort any other fetus?

Yup. It has been pointed out several times in this thread and its previous iterations that deeming abortions murder, but then making exceptions to it where it's OK, is contradictory. If you are going to go down the "abortion is murder" then at least take it to its ultimate and more rational conclusion by advocating banning it completely, instead of trying to have your cake and eat it by calling it "murder" but then saying it's OK to murder it in situations X, Y, and Z.

---

It was more of a "I really honestly don't care, yes I may personally disagree but live how you want to live" to a "We must do something about this."
It was a laidback moderate pro choice, although eventually became pro life.

Wait, you are contradicting yourself. You said you used to be pro-life, now you are saying that you used to be pro-choice and you are now pro-life?

To be quiet frank with you Abortion is not a issue that I would personally focus too much on (Climate change, welfare, and stopping global influence, plus making more American products is on my to do list)if I was in a position of power. It’s my honest opinion, and it may change. Views change over time.

[The Caleshan Valkyrie]

Should a rape victim have to carry a child to term that they don’t want?

I don't think it's right to murder the innocent party in this instance. If anyone is to be killed for instances like this, it ought to be the rapist (but even then I'm iffy on the death penalty). I do think the woman should receive an abundance of care and honestly would be incredibly understanding for wishing to put the child up for adoption.

Innocence is irrelevant. It is wrong to treat abortion as if it is some kind of punishment or revenge. It is not.

[A-Series-Of-Tubes]

What right do you have to make a medical decision for someone else?

?

You just repeated the same thing

Parents have considerable discretion to make medical decisions on behalf of born children. The medical decision of whether they live or die, is quite consistent with that, considering the much lesser degree of personhood of the foetus, and the power of physical possession the woman has.

You believe in negative rights, don't you? The woman is within her rights to stop providing nutrients to the embryo. It's simple to imagine how: a medical clamp (locking forcep) on the umbilical cord. That will kill the foetus by starvation (or in very late term, injure it by starvation), and though this would be cruel it would be within the woman's negative rights. Medical abortion achieves the same end, though with much less potential suffering, and is thus justified in any case where the woman intends the death of the foetus.

[The New California Republic]

Wait, you are contradicting yourself. You said you used to be pro-life, now you are saying that you used to be pro-choice and you are now pro-life?

To be quiet frank with you Abortion is not a issue that I would personally focus too much on (Climate change, welfare, and stopping global influence, plus making more American products is on my to do list)if I was in a position of power. It’s my honest opinion, and it may change. Views change over time.

But that does nothing to explain why you just contradicted yourself.

[San Lumen]

Therefore they should be forced to have a child they don’t want?

Like that one saying “one mans trash is another man’s treasure.”
A innocent life shouldn’t have to die for the wants of the women. If they don’t want their child they can give it to someone who does want it or get support from the government.

So a fetus has more rights than a person and gets to use someone’s body without their consent?

That’s nine months she has to give it up not to mention the trauma of carrying a child to term she didn’t want.

[Garkland]

To be quiet frank with you Abortion is not a issue that I would personally focus too much on (Climate change, welfare, and stopping global influence, plus making more American products is on my to do list)if I was in a position of power. It’s my honest opinion, and it may change. Views change over time.

But that does nothing to explain why you just contradicted yourself.

I don't think your truly understanding and comprehending what I am saying so let me break it down


When I was younger, I used to believe those tiny pamphlets and those websites saying Abortion is bad. I was against it completely. Take into account I was a young child

Then I did some research and sound that Planned parenthood doesn't just do abortions, but other things. I eventually gained a Pro life, although not totally extreme to the point where I thought abortion was moral. I would not get it for my future spouse, but if she really wanted to or if others wanted to, I would be fine with it. I am still on the fence about this issue to be honest, so some days I lean pro life and others pro choice.

[Echo Chamber Thought Police]

Speaking of the unborn victims of violence act, I don't actually support that law.

A fetus, by definition, is not person. They are a living organism, but legally not a person.

A person who kills a pregnant woman shouldn't be charged with double homicide, they should be charged with one count of homicide and another of unlawful destruction of a fetus (any abortion that takes place without the mother's consent or in other unlawful circumstances should fall into this category).

The same goes for a person who, say, punches a woman in the stomach and kills the fetus. No murder charges should be brought, instead separate charges of unlawful destruction of the fetus and aggravated assault of the woman.

[The Marlborough]

Like that one saying “one mans trash is another man’s treasure.”
A innocent life shouldn’t have to die for the wants of the women. If they don’t want their child they can give it to someone who does want it or get support from the government.

So a fetus has more rights than a person and gets to use someone’s body without their consent?

In this instance yes because the right for the fetus to live supersedes bodily autonomy. The only legitimate circumstance to have an abortion is when the mother's right to life is being threatened by the pregnancy and the most viable or only viable recourse is abortion.

[The New California Republic]

But that does nothing to explain why you just contradicted yourself.

I don't think your truly understanding and comprehending what I am saying so let me break it down


When I was younger, I used to believe those tiny pamphlets and those websites saying Abortion is bad. I was against it completely. Take into account I was a young child

Then I did some research and sound that Planned parenthood doesn't just do abortions, but other things. I eventually gained a Pro life, although not totally extreme to the point where I thought abortion was moral. I would not get it for my future spouse, but if she really wanted to or if others wanted to, I would be fine with it. I am still on the fence about this issue to be honest, so some days I lean pro life and others pro choice.

You could have just avoided this entire muddled back and forth in the first place by simply stating at the start: "I'm undecided."

[The Marlborough]

A fetus is only defined as not a person by contemporary convention. Which is why I urge pro-life activists that our immediate aim should be to change the law on personhood, and therefore the rights of personhood, to expand its scope.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

So a fetus has more rights than a person and gets to use someone’s body without their consent?

In this instance yes because the right for the fetus to live supersedes bodily autonomy. The only legitimate circumstance to have an abortion is when the mother's right to life is being threatened by the pregnancy and the most viable or only viable recourse is abortion.

So, we should force people to donate kidneys, too?

[San Lumen]

So a fetus has more rights than a person and gets to use someone’s body without their consent?

In this instance, yes because the right for the fetus to live supersedes bodily autonomy. The only legitimate circumstance to have an abortion is when the mother's right to life is being threatened by the pregnancy and the most viable or only viable recourse is abortion.

Wow ok. So whenever a woman is pregnant they are a slave to pregnancy they might not have wanted or never asked for?

A young girl in Paraguay gave birth after being a victim of incest several years ago. Abortion is totally illegal in that country. She developed complications from it I believe but that’s ok because the fetus has more rights then her well being?

[The Marlborough]

In this instance yes because the right for the fetus to live supersedes bodily autonomy. The only legitimate circumstance to have an abortion is when the mother's right to life is being threatened by the pregnancy and the most viable or only viable recourse is abortion.

So, we should force people to donate kidneys, too?

I zig-zag between opt-out and mandatory organ donation if that's what you're trying to get at. I don't support opt-in systems for organ donation.

[Echo Chamber Thought Police]

But that does nothing to explain why you just contradicted yourself.

I don't think your truly understanding and comprehending what I am saying so let me break it down


When I was younger, I used to believe those tiny pamphlets and those websites saying Abortion is bad. I was against it completely. Take into account I was a young child

Then I did some research and sound that Planned parenthood doesn't just do abortions, but other things. I eventually gained a Pro life, although not totally extreme to the point where I thought abortion was moral. I would not get it for my future spouse, but if she really wanted to or if others wanted to, I would be fine with it. I am still on the fence about this issue to be honest, so some days I lean pro life and others pro choice.