[Abortion Thread] (POLL 4) A compromising position...

[Kexholm Karelia]

A splinter isn’t a living thing in the same sense a dead body isn’t a living thing. A splinter on its own cannot copy and reproduce its own DNA and undergo cell mitosis the way a fetus does.

neither can a fetus out of a womb so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This is just false, not to mention abortion survivors

[Kexholm Karelia]

Not at all, a fetus is a premature human, just like how a joey is a premature kangaroo, yet both the fetus and the joey are alive

Parasites are alive too.

A fetus isn’t a parasite, however

[Atheris]

So? Does it have to be attacking anyone? A splinter gets in your finger through no fault of its own but like, if you don't want that shit in there bc it causes your body Problems well my guy it's your right to get it out lol

A splinter isn’t a living thing, a fetus is

No, it's not. A fetus is nothing but a cluster of cells. They can't even feel nor register pain nor external stimuli until the third trimester, where the bar for abortion in most states and countries (IIRC) is before.

If aborting fetuses is murder, then I must be a war criminal with all the dry skin I scratch off whenever I get itchy. Cells are still living things, after all.

Parasites are alive too.

A fetus isn't a parasite, however

By definition, it is. In practice it's more similar to a symbiote, but that's really just semantics. I don't think Necroghastia was calling a fetus a parasite, though.

[The Marlborough]

I will state that the position of some churches forbidding it even when it's done to save a mother's life is far too extreme. The position of the OCA is that it can be allowed in such circumstances, though it's prohibited in all others.

[Kexholm Karelia]

A splinter isn’t a living thing, a fetus is

No, it's not. A fetus is nothing but a cluster of cells. They can't even feel nor register pain nor external stimuli until the third trimester, where the bar for abortion in most states and countries (IIRC) is before.

If aborting fetuses is murder, then I must be a war criminal with all the dry skin I scratch off whenever I get itchy. Cells are still living things, after all.

See the post on the last page

Science was never my subject, so I default to the scientists' view in regards to scientific stuff.

Most of those guys seem to agree that fetuses aren't alive tho

Let’s see… here are the ten accepted characteristics of a living organism

1. Cells and DNA
Check

2. Metabolic Action
Check

3. Internal Environment Changes
Check

4. Living Organisms Grow
Check

5. The Art of Reproduction
Check, see earlier source showing identifiable ovaries and other sexual organs on fetuses

6. Ability to Adapt
Check

7. Ability to Interact
Check

8. The Process of Respiration
Check

9. Living Creatures Move
Check

10. Cell Mitosis
Check

[Senkaku]

Parasites are alive too.

A fetus isn’t a parasite, however

No, but they have some important behavioral similarities.

Anyways-- even if we accept your dogma of full fetal personhood (which, to be clear, I don't), and apply the principle of avoiding killing any humans, that still doesn't bring us to a blanket ban on abortion, because such a ban would just amount to killing an alternative group of women and girls (and still some fetuses) instead of killing the fetuses that would've otherwise been aborted.

I will state that the position of some churches forbidding it even when it's done to save a mother's life is far too extreme. The position of the OCA is that it can be allowed in such circumstances, though it's prohibited in all others.

I still don't agree, but the arguments for why that's too restrictive is at least a completely different one, and I can accept that such a position is at least in good faith (as opposed to KK's "just kill these ones instead of those ones" nonsense, backstopped by random bullshit about brain waves).

[The New California Republic]

neither can a fetus out of a womb so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This is just false, not to mention abortion survivors

Let's look at the numbers that have been used in the thread on previous occasions. When the vast majority of abortions are performed the odds of survival are negligible. About 90% of abortions are performed at 12 weeks or before. Less than 2% of abortions take place after 20 weeks. It's only at the 24th week that the fetus has a 50/50 chance of survival. Before that time the chances of survival drop like a stone.

[The Marlborough]

A splinter isn’t a living thing, a fetus is

No, it's not. A fetus is nothing but a cluster of cells.

Which would make it a living thing. And I mean, all humans are just clusters of cells.

[Kexholm Karelia]

No, it's not. A fetus is nothing but a cluster of cells.

Which would make it a living thing. And I mean, all humans are just clusters of cells.

Well not necessarily, there are some things that a cluster of cells has to do to be considered alive. Fetuses, however, do all of these things

[Atheris]

No, it's not. A fetus is nothing but a cluster of cells. They can't even feel nor register pain nor external stimuli until the third trimester, where the bar for abortion in most states and countries (IIRC) is before.

If aborting fetuses is murder, then I must be a war criminal with all the dry skin I scratch off whenever I get itchy. Cells are still living things, after all.

See the post on the last page

Let’s see… here are the ten accepted characteristics of a living organism

1. Cells and DNA
Check

2. Metabolic Action
Check

3. Internal Environment Changes
Check

4. Living Organisms Grow
Check

5. The Art of Reproduction
Check, see earlier source showing identifiable ovaries and other sexual organs on fetuses

6. Ability to Adapt
Check

7. Ability to Interact
Check

8. The Process of Respiration
Check

9. Living Creatures Move
Check

10. Cell Mitosis
Check

Fetuses can not sexually reproduce and don't breathe.

Babies don't breathe in the womb as we understand “breathing.” Instead, babies rely on their mother's breathing to receive oxygen to their developing organs. After nine months of growing inside of a mother's body, a baby undergoes a complicated physical transition as they exit the womb. Research shows this transition is one of the most intricate things our body will ever do. While babies “practice” breathing in utero, their lungs aren’t used for breathing until they take their first breath outside the womb.

The mother's placenta helps the baby "breathe" while it is growing in the womb. Oxygen and carbon dioxide flow through the blood in the placenta. Most of it goes to the heart and flows through the baby's body. At birth, the baby's lungs are filled with fluid.

Babies do not exactly “breathe” in the womb; at least not by inhaling air they way they do after delivery. Instead, oxygen travels through the mother’s lungs, heart, vasculature, uterus, and placenta, finally making its way through the umbilical cord and into the fetus.

Fetuses do not interact with the environment in the first trimester and only in very limited ways in the second trimester, only becoming aware of their surroundings around the third trimester; after the abortion period has passed for many countries.

Results showed that fetuses displayed more arm, head, and mouth movements when the mother touched her abdomen and decreased their arm and head movements to maternal voice. Fetuses in the 3rd trimester showed increased regulatory (yawning), resting (arms crossed) and self-touch (hands touching the body) responses to the stimuli when compared to fetuses in the 2nd trimester.

[Echo Chamber Thought Police]

See the post on the last page

Fetuses can not sexually reproduce and don't breathe.

Babies don't breathe in the womb as we understand “breathing.” Instead, babies rely on their mother's breathing to receive oxygen to their developing organs. After nine months of growing inside of a mother's body, a baby undergoes a complicated physical transition as they exit the womb.

Babies don't breathe in the womb as we understand “breathing.” Instead, babies rely on their mother's breathing to receive oxygen to their developing organs. After nine months of growing inside of a mother's body, a baby undergoes a complicated physical transition as they exit the womb.

The mother's placenta helps the baby "breathe" while it is growing in the womb. Oxygen and carbon dioxide flow through the blood in the placenta. Most of it goes to the heart and flows through the baby's body. At birth, the baby's lungs are filled with fluid.

Babies do not exactly “breathe” in the womb; at least not by inhaling air they way they do after delivery. Instead, oxygen travels through the mother’s lungs, heart, vasculature, uterus, and placenta, finally making its way through the umbilical cord and into the fetus.

Fetuses do not interact with the environment in the first trimester and only in very limited ways in the second trimester, only becoming aware of their surroundings around the third trimester; after the abortion period has passed for many countries.

Results showed that fetuses displayed more arm, head, and mouth movements when the mother touched her abdomen and decreased their arm and head movements to maternal voice. Fetuses in the 3rd trimester showed increased regulatory (yawning), resting (arms crossed) and self-touch (hands touching the body) responses to the stimuli when compared to fetuses in the 2nd trimester.

So this means kids aren't people?

Before puberty kids can't sexually reproduce.

[Atheris]

No, it's not. A fetus is nothing but a cluster of cells.

Which would make it a living thing. And I mean, all humans are just clusters of cells.

Not necessarily. Cork stoppers have cells in them but they're not alive.

[Senkaku]

Which would make it a living thing. And I mean, all humans are just clusters of cells.

Well not necessarily, there are some things that a cluster of cells has to do to be considered alive. Fetuses, however, do all of these things

Ehhhh. They don't maintain homeostasis themselves or regulate food and waste intake and outflow, their mother does that; they will eventually be able to reproduce once they leave the womb and mature but saying they can reproduce seems sorta iffy; they have pretty minimal ability to interact with their environment, they at least respond to some stimuli but it's still sort of questionable.

They're the same species and they're not actively attacking the mother, so they're not formally parasites, but like... calling them fully alive seems weird from a formal perspective until they unhook from mom's power supply.

[Atheris]

Fetuses can not sexually reproduce and don't breathe.







Fetuses do not interact with the environment in the first trimester and only in very limited ways in the second trimester, only becoming aware of their surroundings around the third trimester; after the abortion period has passed for many countries.

So this means kids aren't people?

Before puberty kids can't sexually reproduce.

Ask KK, he made the point.

[The Marlborough]

Which would make it a living thing. And I mean, all humans are just clusters of cells.

Well not necessarily, there are some things that a cluster of cells has to do to be considered alive. Fetuses, however, do all of these things

True, but I assumed they weren't talking about a cluster of dead cells since cells are the fundamental building block of life and in of themselves said cells would be alive. That they have yet to form into a true multicellular organism is true of the zygote phase of development (and zygotes are still living). A fetus however has already progressed into a being a multicellular organism.

[Kexholm Karelia]

Fetuses can not sexually reproduce and don't breathe.

Fetuses, however, have sexual organs, and that constitutes as potential to reproduce, which is really all that matters since then a prepubescent child would be considered not alive as well. As for breathing, they still do it, just not in the way out of womb humans do. Cell respiration is a form of breathing, and that’s exactly what a fetus does.

[Kexholm Karelia]

Which would make it a living thing. And I mean, all humans are just clusters of cells.

Not necessarily. Cork stoppers have cells in them but they're not alive.

Cork cells aren’t alive, they don’t undergo cell respiration

[The Marlborough]

Which would make it a living thing. And I mean, all humans are just clusters of cells.

Not necessarily. Cork stoppers have cells in them but they're not alive.

Yeah because they are dead. Fetuses aren't dead and then become magically alive.

[Atheris]

Fetuses can not sexually reproduce and don't breathe.

Fetuses, however, have sexual organs, and that constitutes as potential to reproduce, which is really all that matters since then a prepubescent child would be considered not alive as well. As for breathing, they still do it, just not in the way out of womb humans do. Cell respiration is a form of breathing, and that’s exactly what a fetus does.

(Male) Fetuses do not develop sexual organs until around 26 weeks of pregnancy; after the first and second trimester and roughly 96% of abortions.

8-92% of all abortions happen during the first trimester, prior to the 13th week of gestation (AGI/CDC).

and 4.0% took place at 16 weeks of gestation or later

Between week 7 and week 12 of pregnancy, the foundations of your baby’s sex organs develop. At about week 9, a baby boy’s genitals begin the process of becoming male. The genital ridge starts lengthening around week 9 to form the penis. The penis and clitoris, however, actually remain the same size until about 14 weeks. In your baby boy, buds that will become the prostate appear around 10 weeks. Your baby’s urinary system is fully formed by about 14 weeks. Testicles will begin descending in week 26, while baby’s penis grows the most during the third trimester.

Emphasis mine.

[The New California Republic]

Fetuses can not sexually reproduce and don't breathe.

Fetuses, however, have sexual organs

No, not completely until about 20+ weeks. And a reminder that only 2% of abortions take place after that point.

[The Marlborough]

What is meant by reproduction in this sense is the ability for the cells of the organism to reproduce themselves in order for the organism to grow and keep living. Which applies to fetuses. If we're using the presence of viable genitalia/fertility as a threshold for when a human is living then no person with cloacal exstrophy or was just in general infertile would be considered alive which would be blatantly retarded.

[The Marlborough]

There are actually sacks of potatoes with higher levels of intelligence than some of the arguments presented ITT the past couple of pages, jfc.

[Kexholm Karelia]

There are actually sacks of potatoes with higher levels of intelligence than some of the arguments presented ITT the past couple of pages, jfc.

I don’t think its lack of intelligence, just misinformation that’s spread and become a staple in media due to the influence of the pro abortion lobby. Many people don’t realize how much lobbying is done by these groups

[The New California Republic]

I don’t think its lack of intelligence, just misinformation that’s spread and become a staple in media due to the influence of the pro abortion lobby. Many people don’t realize how much lobbying is done by these groups

I've given you numbers which you have ignored, as well as an earlier point that you ignored, so...

[Necroghastia]

There are actually sacks of potatoes with higher levels of intelligence than some of the arguments presented ITT the past couple of pages, jfc.

I don’t think its lack of intelligence, just misinformation that’s spread and become a staple in media due to the influence of the pro abortion lobby. Many people don’t realize how much lobbying is done by these groups

Misinformation like...?