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[Abortion Thread] (POLL 4) A compromising position...

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What would you consider to be the best 'compromise'?

Reduce abortions with welfare supports / other non-invasive measures, leave access untouched.
132
33%
Set conditions under which abortions can be accessed.
83
21%
Allow free access, under a given time limit.
38
9%
Allow free access, but give men an option to excuse themselves from child support.
40
10%
HELL WITH COMPROMISE, IT'S MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY!
86
21%
Look out! They're here! Pink Elephants on Parade! Here they come, hippity hoppity!
22
5%
 
Total votes : 401

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Michel Meilleur
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Michel Meilleur » Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:40 pm

Neutraligon wrote:I mean for personhood to be a thing a person does need to be a person. It is kinda in the definition.

That'd be if you're using a person as the base to define personhood rather than attempting to use personhood as a way to define a person. The difference is quite marked and really slippery.

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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:45 pm

Michel Meilleur wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:I mean for personhood to be a thing a person does need to be a person. It is kinda in the definition.

That'd be if you're using a person as the base to define personhood rather than attempting to use personhood as a way to define a person. The difference is quite marked and really slippery.

From what I can tell people in this thread are doing the former. A fetus is not a person and so has no personhood. Not that either of those matter in an abortion debate.
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Arlenton
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Arlenton » Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:56 pm

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Arlenton wrote:The government clearly does have gun control in effect currently, so yeah. They do do it.

I am not arguing in favor of a "should" I am arguing that they "do".

and they should because i am personally offended

Ok. Now all you have to do is get enough power in government to make it happen. Just like the pro-life people are doing.

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JAPANBLOX
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Ex-Nation

Postby JAPANBLOX » Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:01 pm

My axiom is the current :

Preserve the life , reduce the sufference and serch a compromise and repeal the euthanasia !
JAPANBLOX

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Michel Meilleur
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Founded: Aug 24, 2021
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Michel Meilleur » Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:02 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Michel Meilleur wrote:That'd be if you're using a person as the base to define personhood rather than attempting to use personhood as a way to define a person. The difference is quite marked and really slippery.

From what I can tell people in this thread are doing the former. A fetus is not a person and so has no personhood. Not that either of those matter in an abortion debate.

A fetus is a person because he is an human. That he is incapable of recognizing himself as a person, which is the concept of personhood, doesn't make him less of a person nor does it makes him not human. A lot of peoples on this thread are doing the later and suspiciously aping Nazi rhetoric in the process which is quite saddening and honestly suspicious.

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Necroghastia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Necroghastia » Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:05 pm

Michel Meilleur wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:From what I can tell people in this thread are doing the former. A fetus is not a person and so has no personhood. Not that either of those matter in an abortion debate.

A fetus is a person because he is an human.

So a corpse is a person?
also
>an human
Last edited by Necroghastia on Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Neutraligon
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:05 pm

Michel Meilleur wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:From what I can tell people in this thread are doing the former. A fetus is not a person and so has no personhood. Not that either of those matter in an abortion debate.

A fetus is a person because he is an human. That he is incapable of recognizing himself as a person, which is the concept of personhood, doesn't make him less of a person nor does it makes him not human. A lot of peoples on this thread are doing the later and suspiciously aping Nazi rhetoric in the process which is quite saddening and honestly suspicious.

I do not consider humanity as part of being a person. For instance a sentient and sapient alien would be a person, while a human who is dead/ brain-dead is not a person. No one in this thread says a fetus is not human, they disagree if they are a person due to the lack of both salience and sentience.
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Michel Meilleur
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Michel Meilleur » Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:15 pm

Necroghastia wrote:
Michel Meilleur wrote:A fetus is a person because he is an human.

So a corpse is a person?
also
>an human

A corpse is a dead person, yes.

Not sure what's the greentext arrow is for, regarding a fetus being an human.

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Senkaku
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Senkaku » Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:17 pm

Michel Meilleur wrote:A fetus is a person because he is an human.

If we’re expected to believe a water-breathing creature the size of a grapefruit with a primitive vascular system and a brain smaller than a squid’s is a person just because it possesses a certain genetic similarity with the rest of us, that raises some unsettling questions of what other creatures we might have to include in this definition of personhood, both right now among existing organisms and in the future as genetic engineering becomes more advanced and widespread. Depending on how early in pregnancy you think abortion should be restricted, those questions only become more pronounced— if life begins at conception, for instance, what rights should our closest relatives among the protists have? Unless, of course, this is all stemming from a religious view of human exceptionalism, in which case restricting abortion is basically asking an entire society to chuck religious pluralism out the window and restrict half the population’s access to medicine on the basis of particular sects’ ancient dogmas… in which case, it’s a safe bet they’re not going to stop there.
Last edited by Senkaku on Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Vassenor
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:20 pm

Michel Meilleur wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:From what I can tell people in this thread are doing the former. A fetus is not a person and so has no personhood. Not that either of those matter in an abortion debate.

A fetus is a person because he is an human. That he is incapable of recognizing himself as a person, which is the concept of personhood, doesn't make him less of a person nor does it makes him not human. A lot of peoples on this thread are doing the later and suspiciously aping Nazi rhetoric in the process which is quite saddening and honestly suspicious.


Remember, believing that women should have control over their bodies is Nazi rhetoric, but demanding that women be forced to squirt out as many babies as possible (as in the Kinder part of Kinder, Küche, Kirche) isn't.
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Senkaku
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Senkaku » Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:25 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Michel Meilleur wrote:A fetus is a person because he is an human. That he is incapable of recognizing himself as a person, which is the concept of personhood, doesn't make him less of a person nor does it makes him not human. A lot of peoples on this thread are doing the later and suspiciously aping Nazi rhetoric in the process which is quite saddening and honestly suspicious.

I do not consider humanity as part of being a person. For instance a sentient and sapient alien would be a person, while a human who is dead/ brain-dead is not a person. No one in this thread says a fetus is not human, they disagree if they are a person due to the lack of both salience and sentience.

It’s definitely worth thinking long and hard about the continuum of sentience/sapience and what rights that entails extending to humans, other creatures, and hypothetical aliens— unfortunately, the religious right which is the primary driver of the anti-abortion movement in the US is not interested in actually collaborating in that investigation; it’s just used as a wedge to keep their opponents fighting amongst themselves. It doesn’t matter to them what secular people consider sapient or not, they have a religious belief as to when life begins that they believe must be imposed on the rest of us regardless of its relation to the facts. Even if the most extreme pro-lifers were right and we discover someday that zygotes are somehow aware through a 6th sense from the moment of conception, the same religious right would have zero interest in investigating whether this also applies to other species— for the same reasons of religious dogma. Abortion restrictions are therefore not really about some universal moral consideration for the suffering of living beings; they’re the thin end of the wedge for the religious right to try to exercise political dominance over society.
Last edited by Senkaku on Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
the strong do what they will and the weak suffer what they must

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Michel Meilleur
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Michel Meilleur » Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:26 pm

Senkaku wrote:If we’re expected to believe a water-breathing creature the size of a grapefruit with a primitive vascular system and a brain smaller than a squid’s is a person just because it possesses a certain genetic similarity with the rest of us, that raises some unsettling questions of what other creatures we might have to include in this definition of personhood, both right now among existing organisms and in the future as genetic engineering becomes more advanced and widespread. Depending on how early in pregnancy you think abortion should be restricted, those questions only become more pronounced— if life begins at conception, for instance, what rights should our closest relatives among the protists have?


Do you happen to have a degree in a STEM field or is that just typical "I FUCKING LOVE SCIENCE" shit that humanities graduate love to fap themselves over?

Unless, of course, this is all stemming from a religious view of human exceptionalism, in which case restricting abortion is basically asking an entire society to chuck religious pluralism out the window and restrict half the population’s access to medicine on the basis of particular sects’ ancient dogmas.


Image

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Hispida
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Anarchy

Postby Hispida » Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:33 pm

Michel Meilleur wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:So a corpse is a person?
also
>an human

A corpse is a dead person, yes.

Not sure what's the greentext arrow is for, regarding a fetus being an human.

probably because "human" isn't a word that "an" can be used for

"an" is used to precede words that begin with a vowel sound, i.e. "apple," "hour," or "item". the word "human" distinctly starts with an "h" sound, which is a consonant

unless you say "an ooman" in which case are you a yautja
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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:39 pm

Sundiata wrote:Every woman is good.

No, really really not.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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Senkaku
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Postby Senkaku » Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:40 pm

Michel Meilleur wrote:
Senkaku wrote:If we’re expected to believe a water-breathing creature the size of a grapefruit with a primitive vascular system and a brain smaller than a squid’s is a person just because it possesses a certain genetic similarity with the rest of us, that raises some unsettling questions of what other creatures we might have to include in this definition of personhood, both right now among existing organisms and in the future as genetic engineering becomes more advanced and widespread. Depending on how early in pregnancy you think abortion should be restricted, those questions only become more pronounced— if life begins at conception, for instance, what rights should our closest relatives among the protists have?


Do you happen to have a degree in a STEM field or is that just typical "I FUCKING LOVE SCIENCE" shit that humanities graduate love to fap themselves over?

Would either answer make you any likelier to actually engage with that line of thinking?

Unless, of course, this is all stemming from a religious view of human exceptionalism, in which case restricting abortion is basically asking an entire society to chuck religious pluralism out the window and restrict half the population’s access to medicine on the basis of particular sects’ ancient dogmas.


Image

So stop pretending to have some interminable, winding argument about “personhood” on secular terms with people, it’s insufferable. If God made all humans (and only humans) special, including all unborn ones, and you think we should run society the way God told us to in a specific text, then just say that instead of all this dishonest pussyfooting.
Last edited by Senkaku on Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Michel Meilleur
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Postby Michel Meilleur » Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:46 pm

Hispida wrote:probably because "human" isn't a word that "an" can be used for

"an" is used to precede words that begin with a vowel sound, i.e. "apple," "hour," or "item". the word "human" distinctly starts with an "h" sound, which is a consonant

unless you say "an ooman" in which case are you a yautja

Oh well...

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Michel Meilleur
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Postby Michel Meilleur » Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:55 pm

Senkaku wrote:Would either answer make you any likelier to actually engage with that line of thinking?

Yes, the latter. I do not have sufficient knowledge in biology to argue about the fine points of it with a dude who got a master in that field. If it's just amateur interest, then there is more point to it.

So stop pretending to have some interminable, winding argument about “personhood” on secular terms with people, it’s insufferable. If God made all humans (and only humans) special, including all unborn ones, and you think we should run society the way God told us to in a specific text, then just say that instead of all this dishonest pussyfooting.

One doesn't exclude the other. I believe that we are made in the image of God and that is a moral standpoint, but that doesn't stop me from being able to discuss personhood from an ethical one.

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Hispida
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Postby Hispida » Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:02 pm

Michel Meilleur wrote:
Hispida wrote:probably because "human" isn't a word that "an" can be used for

"an" is used to precede words that begin with a vowel sound, i.e. "apple," "hour," or "item". the word "human" distinctly starts with an "h" sound, which is a consonant

unless you say "an ooman" in which case are you a yautja

Oh well...

fair tbh
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"he utterly fails to understand"
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Thepeopl
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Postby Thepeopl » Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:22 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Every woman is good.

No, really really not.

Finally! You recognize me as being bad!! Yay!

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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:22 pm

Thepeopl wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:No, really really not.

Finally! You recognize me as being bad!! Yay!

:lol:
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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Stellar Colonies
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:56 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Every woman is good.

No, really really not.

Sun hasn't heard of Valerie Solanas.
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:59 pm

Stellar Colonies wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:No, really really not.

Sun hasn't heard of Valerie Solanas.

I already mentioned Jane Toppan
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Stellar Colonies
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Stellar Colonies » Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:00 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Stellar Colonies wrote:Sun hasn't heard of Valerie Solanas.

I already mentioned Jane Toppan

Ah, jumping ahead.
Native of The East Pacific and Northern California
Opinions and Puppets
If you want a mental image of me: straight(?) white male.

I try to be objective, but I do have some biases.

I don't think the political compass is
fully accurate, but here are my results:

X-Axis: -5.38
Y-Axis: -2.62

Also, I'm diagnosed as a high-functioning autistic.
Stellar Colonies is a loose confederacy comprised from most of the human-settled parts of the galaxy.

Ida Station is the only Confederate member state permitted to join the WA.

Add 1200 years for the date I use.

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Sundiata
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Sundiata » Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:00 pm

Stellar Colonies wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:No, really really not.

Sun hasn't heard of Valerie Solanas.

I have, I don't like her or her opinions but I don't hate her. Everyone's good at a human level.
Neutraligon wrote:
Stellar Colonies wrote:Sun hasn't heard of Valerie Solanas.

I already mentioned Jane Toppan

Her I don't know.
Last edited by Sundiata on Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:02 pm

Sundiata wrote:
Stellar Colonies wrote:Sun hasn't heard of Valerie Solanas.

I have, I don't like her or her opinions but I don't hate her. Everyone's good at a human level.

What does that even mean? :eyebrow:
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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