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[Abortion Thread] (POLL 4) A compromising position...

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What would you consider to be the best 'compromise'?

Reduce abortions with welfare supports / other non-invasive measures, leave access untouched.
89
35%
Set conditions under which abortions can be accessed.
56
22%
Allow free access, under a given time limit.
20
8%
Allow free access, but give men an option to excuse themselves from child support.
26
10%
HELL WITH COMPROMISE, IT'S MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY!
48
19%
Look out! They're here! Pink Elephants on Parade! Here they come, hippity hoppity!
18
7%
 
Total votes : 257

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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:13 pm

Thepeopl wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Better a mother than a participant in a killing.

Just because one has created something, doesn't mean they are loving it. (Do you love abscesses, kidney stones or your other excrement?)
Just because a woman gets pregnant, doesn't make her a mother. Parenthood is chosen. It really is a calling. It definitely is not for everyone.

To force people to become parents is immoral. It promotes suffering, negligence and abuse.

Unborn human beings are not abscesses, kidney stones, or excrement. To be born is a calling.
"Don't say, 'That person bothers me.' Think: 'That person sanctifies me.'"
-St. Josemaria Escriva

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Neuer California
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Postby Neuer California » Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:14 pm

Sundiata wrote:
Neuer California wrote:Even in cases where there is no way the zygote will ever develop into a baby? Ectopic pregnancies routinely end with the zygote/fetus dead or aborted because there's no way they'll become viable and having them continue to "develop" greatly endangers the mother for no benefit to her or the zygote.
Yes: the principle of double effect.

Doing something wrong for the right reason is still wrong.

Just a reminder that Sun honestly believes that it is wrong to abort a non-viable pregnancy that can easily put the mother's life at risk because "life."

If that is actually wrong, I don't want to be right
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Neuer California
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Postby Neuer California » Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:14 pm

Sundiata wrote:
Thepeopl wrote:Just because one has created something, doesn't mean they are loving it. (Do you love abscesses, kidney stones or your other excrement?)
Just because a woman gets pregnant, doesn't make her a mother. Parenthood is chosen. It really is a calling. It definitely is not for everyone.

To force people to become parents is immoral. It promotes suffering, negligence and abuse.

Unborn human beings are not abscesses, kidney stones, or excrement. To be born is a calling.

A calling from...?
Puppet of Neu California. I wanted a fresh start on my nation.
And yes, that is two girls kissing in my flag. I am strongly pro-LGBT and a big fan of yuri stuff, so...
Pro: gun control, LGBT rights, taxing the rich heavily, welfare, UBI, universal healthcare, corporate regulations
Anti: bullying, gun bans, unlimited gun rights, homophobia, biphobia, transphobia, racism, sexism, Trump, excessive corporate power
34 year old agnostic writer of smut free lesbian speculative fiction. Aspergers, social anxiety, and yet not a giant raging dick
Ifreann wrote:
Suriyanakhon wrote:
Does this mean wlw is most holy in God's eyes?

It turns out that lesbians are God's chosen people.

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Sundiata
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Founded: Sep 27, 2019
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Postby Sundiata » Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:18 pm

Neuer California wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Unborn human beings are not abscesses, kidney stones, or excrement. To be born is a calling.

A calling from...?

Human nature at its best.
"Don't say, 'That person bothers me.' Think: 'That person sanctifies me.'"
-St. Josemaria Escriva

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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:28 pm

Sundiata wrote:
Neuer California wrote:A calling from...?

Human nature at its best.

The human body believes the fetus to be a parasite and tries to kill it.

Especially if the mother and fetus have a different blood type, the mom has to put on immunosuppressants or else have a miscarriage.
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Grave_n_idle
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Postby Grave_n_idle » Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:35 pm

Sundiata wrote:
Neuer California wrote:A calling from...?

Human nature at its best.


'Human nature' doesn't have any preferences. Stop trying to anthropomorphize reproduction.

(You neglected to address your misuse of the morality/immorality arguments a few pages back too - I'm reminding you).
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:04 am

Sundiata wrote:
Godular wrote:
Where is this responsibility from?
Lex Naturalis.

Men owe it to women to support them when they become mothers. Anything less than that is truly a culture of misogyny and hatred towards women.

Provide evidence that natural law exists, and then provide evidence that what you claim to be part of it is actually part of it.
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:07 am

Sundiata wrote:
Thepeopl wrote:Just because one has created something, doesn't mean they are loving it. (Do you love abscesses, kidney stones or your other excrement?)
Just because a woman gets pregnant, doesn't make her a mother. Parenthood is chosen. It really is a calling. It definitely is not for everyone.

To force people to become parents is immoral. It promotes suffering, negligence and abuse.

Unborn human beings are not abscesses, kidney stones, or excrement. To be born is a calling.

Considering well over half of all inseminations ends in a miscarriage... yeah no way it is a calling (whatever that means)
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:25 am

Sundiata wrote:
New haven america wrote:We get it, you view women solely as brood mares.

You don't have to repeat it 10000 times, we got it the 500th time.

No. Broodmares? Not anymore than men are Stallions, or the metaphorical equivalent. We're all just people, including the unborn.

You have yet to prove that the fetus has personhood.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:29 am

Sundiata wrote:[...] To be born is a calling.

An empty phrase devoid of meaning. Actually explain what this phrase means to you, as to everyone else it's just noise.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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Thepeopl
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Postby Thepeopl » Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:17 am

Sundiata wrote:
Neuer California wrote:A calling from...?

Human nature at its best.

Human nature also calls for murder, killing, stealing deceiving. I think we can safely ignore the calling of human nature/ lex naturalis

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Celritannia
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Postby Celritannia » Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:13 am

Sundiata wrote:
Thepeopl wrote:Just because one has created something, doesn't mean they are loving it. (Do you love abscesses, kidney stones or your other excrement?)
Just because a woman gets pregnant, doesn't make her a mother. Parenthood is chosen. It really is a calling. It definitely is not for everyone.

To force people to become parents is immoral. It promotes suffering, negligence and abuse.

Unborn human beings are not abscesses, kidney stones, or excrement. To be born is a calling.


"To be born is a calling" is a religious argument.

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Celritannia
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Postby Celritannia » Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:14 am

Sundiata wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:
No the point of the legislation is not revenge, it is to point out the absurdity of the abortion debate, that the way the abortion debate is framed is fundamentally anti-woman. After all, why is it women are the ones punished for the pregnancy while men are not held responsible?

A man who makes love with a woman has a moral responsibility to her, and especially if that act results in pregnancy, he has a responsibility to her and their children.


No he does not.
Anyone who has made love knows a woman has a responsibility for herself
Last edited by Celritannia on Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Zirkagrad wrote:A person with a penchant for flying lions with long tongues, could possibly be a fan of Kiss. Maybe the classiest nation with a lion with its tongue hanging out. Enjoys only the finest tea.

Nakena wrote:NSG's Most Serene Salad
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Godular
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Postby Godular » Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:31 am

Sundiata wrote:
The Caleshan Valkyrie wrote:
There is no such ‘responsibility’ in natural law. Natural law rather specifically countermands your claim at the outset.

There is if a man wants to be the best he can be in paternal circumstances. For the good of humanity, it doesn't make sense not to.


That's not a natural law. That's you using your conclusion as evidence.
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Godular
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Postby Godular » Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:33 am

Sundiata wrote:
New haven america wrote:So is forcing to go through birth against their will but that doesn't stop you...

Better a mother than a participant in a killing.


Welp, guess she should just let the rapist finish then! Better she become a mother against her will than kill another person in self-defense!

#fuckthatnoise
RL position
Active RP: ASCENSION
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Faction 1: The An'Kazar Control Framework of Godular-- An enormously advanced collective of formerly human bioborgs that are vastly experienced in both inter-dimensional travel and asymmetrical warfare.
A 1.08 civilization, according to this Nation Index Thingie
I don't normally use NS stats. But when I do, I prefer Dos Eckis I can STILL kill you.
Post responsibly.

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Thepeopl
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Founded: Feb 24, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby Thepeopl » Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:35 am

Sundiata wrote:
Thepeopl wrote:Just because one has created something, doesn't mean they are loving it. (Do you love abscesses, kidney stones or your other excrement?)
Just because a woman gets pregnant, doesn't make her a mother. Parenthood is chosen. It really is a calling. It definitely is not for everyone.

To force people to become parents is immoral. It promotes suffering, negligence and abuse.

Unborn human beings are not abscesses, kidney stones, or excrement. To be born is a calling.

Definition of calling
1: a strong inner impulse toward a particular course of action especially when accompanied by conviction of divine influence
2: the vocation or profession in which one customarily engages
3: the characteristic cry of a female cat in heat
also : the period of heat


The first known use of calling was in the 13th century
See more words from the same century

Dictionary Entries Near calling
Callinectes

calling

calling card

See More Nearby Entries
Phrases Related to calling
miss one's calling

Statistics for calling
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Cite this Entry

“Calling.” Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/calling. Accessed 25 Oct. 2021.

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More Definitions for calling
calling noun
English Language Learners Definition of calling
: a strong desire to spend your life doing a certain kind of work (such as religious work)
: the work that a person does or should be doing
See the full definition for calling in the English Language Learners Dictionary

calling noun
call·​ing | \ ˈkȯ-liŋ \
Kids Definition of calling
: a profession especially that a person feels strongly about
Teaching was his true calling.
calling noun
call·​ing | \ ˈkȯ-liŋ \
Medical Definition of calling
: the characteristic cry of a female cat in heat
also : the period of heat

So, where in these definitions does" being born " fall? Children don't feel the urge to be born/ to live. Because it's not their choice.

A calling is voluntary. You are choosing one thing over another. Like parenthood, you choose to share your means with a child, to sacrifice your sleep, to educate them to be the best they can.

Being born, you don't have a choice. Hence no calling.

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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:11 am

Godular wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Better a mother than a participant in a killing.


Welp, guess she should just let the rapist finish then! Better she become a mother against her will than kill another person in self-defense!

#fuckthatnoise

What do you mean? Why would you approve of rape? Neither rape or anyone's killing is ideal.
"Don't say, 'That person bothers me.' Think: 'That person sanctifies me.'"
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:13 am

Celritannia wrote:
Sundiata wrote:A man who makes love with a woman has a moral responsibility to her, and especially if that act results in pregnancy, he has a responsibility to her and their children.


No he does not.
Anyone who has made love knows a woman has a responsibility for herself

He absolutely does and these responsibilities are not mutually exclusive.
"Don't say, 'That person bothers me.' Think: 'That person sanctifies me.'"
-St. Josemaria Escriva

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The Holy Therns
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Postby The Holy Therns » Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:13 am

Sundiata wrote:
Godular wrote:
Welp, guess she should just let the rapist finish then! Better she become a mother against her will than kill another person in self-defense!

#fuckthatnoise

What do you mean? Why would you approve of rape? Neither rape or anyone's killing is ideal.


Neither is forcing a woman into an unwanted pregnancy because a man forced himself upon her. I'd call it appalling, frankly.
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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:13 am

Sundiata wrote:
Godular wrote:
Welp, guess she should just let the rapist finish then! Better she become a mother against her will than kill another person in self-defense!

#fuckthatnoise

What do you mean? Why would you approve of rape? Neither rape or anyone's killing is ideal.

Godular isn't approving of rape, read between the lines, what is being said is squarely aimed at your position.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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The Holy Therns
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Founded: Jul 09, 2011
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Postby The Holy Therns » Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:14 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Sundiata wrote:What do you mean? Why would you approve of rape? Neither rape or anyone's killing is ideal.

Godular isn't approving of rape, read between the lines, what is being said is squarely aimed at your position.


Perhaps sarcasm is ungodly?
Platitude with attitude
Your new favorite.
MTF transperson. She/her. Lives in Sweden.
Also, N A N A ! ! !
Gallade wrote:Love, cake, wine and banter. No greater meaning to life (〜^∇^)〜

Ethel mermania wrote:to therns is to transend the pettiness of the field of play into the field of dreams.

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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:15 am

Thepeopl wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Human nature at its best.

Human nature also calls for murder, killing, stealing deceiving. I think we can safely ignore the calling of human nature/ lex naturalis

Not at it's best, specifically. Independent of state authority these things are wrong and not conducive to the good of humanity.
"Don't say, 'That person bothers me.' Think: 'That person sanctifies me.'"
-St. Josemaria Escriva

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Godular
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Postby Godular » Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:16 am

Sundiata wrote:
Godular wrote:
Welp, guess she should just let the rapist finish then! Better she become a mother against her will than kill another person in self-defense!

#fuckthatnoise

What do you mean? Why would you approve of rape? Neither rape or anyone's killing is ideal.


I simply extended your logic to a 'natural' conclusion, in order to point out how absolutely bullshit your logic is. A woman should very much be able to defend herself with deadly force, and that does not change even remotely between born persons and not-born.

Your position is internally inconsistent and frankly outright horrifying.
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Faction 1: The An'Kazar Control Framework of Godular-- An enormously advanced collective of formerly human bioborgs that are vastly experienced in both inter-dimensional travel and asymmetrical warfare.
A 1.08 civilization, according to this Nation Index Thingie
I don't normally use NS stats. But when I do, I prefer Dos Eckis I can STILL kill you.
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The New California Republic
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Posts: 35382
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:17 am

Sundiata wrote:
Thepeopl wrote:Human nature also calls for murder, killing, stealing deceiving. I think we can safely ignore the calling of human nature/ lex naturalis

Not at it's best, specifically. Independent of state authority these things are wrong and not conducive to the good of humanity.

You were harping on about lex naturalis, you can't suddenly shift the goalposts just because your position has been exposed as absurd. :roll:
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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Godular
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Posts: 11607
Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:17 am

Sundiata wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
No he does not.
Anyone who has made love knows a woman has a responsibility for herself

He absolutely does and these responsibilities are not mutually exclusive.


This responsibility does not 'absolutely' exist. There is no evidence of its existence other than your wishful thinking, which itself is tremendously warped.
RL position
Active RP: ASCENSION
Active RP: SHENRYAX
Dormant RP: Throne of the Fallen Empire

Faction 1: The An'Kazar Control Framework of Godular-- An enormously advanced collective of formerly human bioborgs that are vastly experienced in both inter-dimensional travel and asymmetrical warfare.
A 1.08 civilization, according to this Nation Index Thingie
I don't normally use NS stats. But when I do, I prefer Dos Eckis I can STILL kill you.
Post responsibly.

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