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[Abortion Thread] (POLL 4) A compromising position...

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What would you consider to be the best 'compromise'?

Reduce abortions with welfare supports / other non-invasive measures, leave access untouched.
132
33%
Set conditions under which abortions can be accessed.
83
21%
Allow free access, under a given time limit.
38
9%
Allow free access, but give men an option to excuse themselves from child support.
40
10%
HELL WITH COMPROMISE, IT'S MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY!
86
21%
Look out! They're here! Pink Elephants on Parade! Here they come, hippity hoppity!
22
5%
 
Total votes : 401

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Katganistan
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Postby Katganistan » Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:31 pm

The Caleshan Valkyrie wrote:
Katganistan wrote:
My liver is begging for mercy.


Non-Alcoholic Strawberry Daquiris are available for those with beleaguered livers… like mine.

Thank you.... my liver and I appreciate it.

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The Kingdom of The Three Isles
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Postby The Kingdom of The Three Isles » Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:15 pm

The Caleshan Valkyrie wrote:
Katganistan wrote:
My liver is begging for mercy.


Non-Alcoholic Strawberry Daquiris are available for those with beleaguered livers… like mine.

Yeah, but what about my Scotch?
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The Caleshan Valkyrie
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Postby The Caleshan Valkyrie » Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:24 pm

The Kingdom Of The Three Isles wrote:
The Caleshan Valkyrie wrote:
Non-Alcoholic Strawberry Daquiris are available for those with beleaguered livers… like mine.

Yeah, but what about my Scotch?


Domestic drinks only. Got some white lightning you can try if your liver is not beleaguered, and you are intent on remedying that.
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Grave_n_idle
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Postby Grave_n_idle » Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:27 pm

The Kingdom Of The Three Isles wrote:
Thepeopl wrote:


So if you follow only old testament, disabled ppl aren't submitted to heaven. Aren't allowed to worship.



Jesus contradicts this in new testament.

I agree. If you are a Christian, you would mainly follow New Testament teachings, as Jesus is the centre of the religion. The Old Testament only speaks of a Messiah, not exactly Jesus’ teachings.


Self-mutilation being the aspirational ideal is new testament
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The Kingdom of The Three Isles
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Postby The Kingdom of The Three Isles » Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:56 pm

Grave_n_idle wrote:
The Kingdom Of The Three Isles wrote:I agree. If you are a Christian, you would mainly follow New Testament teachings, as Jesus is the centre of the religion. The Old Testament only speaks of a Messiah, not exactly Jesus’ teachings.


Self-mutilation being the aspirational ideal is new testament

What?
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The Kingdom of The Three Isles
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Postby The Kingdom of The Three Isles » Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:57 pm

The Caleshan Valkyrie wrote:
The Kingdom Of The Three Isles wrote:Yeah, but what about my Scotch?


Domestic drinks only. Got some white lightning you can try if your liver is not beleaguered, and you are intent on remedying that.

Sure, I’ll try White Lightning
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Betoni
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Postby Betoni » Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:55 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
Betoni wrote:Banning abortion isn't the same as giving rights to a fetus.

It is, it's de facto giving the fetus the right to use the body of another against their will. That's a right that no other person has.

Betoni wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but the fetus doesn't have any legal bearing, it is not a legal entity.

Given the pro-life crowd very frequently want the fetus to be considered a person, the question of it being a legal entity in this context is very pertinent, hence why we need to speak in terms like this.
'

It really isn't, the fetus has no capacity to act in any sense much less legal, so it cannot use anything or have any rights. Laws banning abortion don't create new rights for fetuses they limit the rights of the mother. Have you then conceded already that a fetus is capable of having rights?

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:40 am

Betoni wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:It is, it's de facto giving the fetus the right to use the body of another against their will. That's a right that no other person has.


Given the pro-life crowd very frequently want the fetus to be considered a person, the question of it being a legal entity in this context is very pertinent, hence why we need to speak in terms like this.
'

It really isn't, the fetus has no capacity to act in any sense much less legal, so it cannot use anything or have any rights. Laws banning abortion don't create new rights for fetuses they limit the rights of the mother. Have you then conceded already that a fetus is capable of having rights?

"Concede"? I was never starting from a position where I would need to "concede" that, so you are arguing against a position that I never held. So you might want to do a hard reset of your view of my position and start again. The second part of the quote you responded to reveals that I'm needing to argue from starting points I don't believe are true, solely due to the pro-life crowd having a set of assumptions, and me needing to place myself in a position to argue against them (I don't consider the fetus to be a person for instance, but since the pro-life crowd bring forward arguments that have that as one of their arguments, I need to suspend that to actually even argue against them, even though I myself do not hold that view):

Given the pro-life crowd very frequently want the fetus to be considered a person, the question of it being a legal entity in this context is very pertinent, hence why we need to speak in terms like this.
Last edited by The New California Republic on Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Grave_n_idle
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Postby Grave_n_idle » Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:49 am

The Kingdom Of The Three Isles wrote:
Grave_n_idle wrote:
Self-mutilation being the aspirational ideal is new testament

What?


It does what it says on the tin.

According to the Greek scripture, the highest aspirational ideal to which all (male, obviously) believers should aspire, is self castration.

Read the book.
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:37 am

Grave_n_idle wrote:
The Kingdom Of The Three Isles wrote:What?


It does what it says on the tin.

According to the Greek scripture, the highest aspirational ideal to which all (male, obviously) believers should aspire, is self castration.

Read the book.

:lol:
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Dogmeat
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Postby Dogmeat » Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:14 am

Sundiata wrote:
Grave_n_idle wrote:
It does what it says on the tin.

According to the Greek scripture, the highest aspirational ideal to which all (male, obviously) believers should aspire, is self castration.

Read the book.

:lol:

It's no use Grave. Even if you were to give them 99 reasons why they're doing religion wrong. They would just respond by ignoring you, and killing a million Germans.
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Isles of Eamhna
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Postby Isles of Eamhna » Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:02 am

has the pro-life crowd considered the possibility of reducing the overall prevalence of abortion by mandating vasectomies for men? modern vasectomy surgery (and vasectomy reversal surgery) is a generally safe procedure with low chance of complications that almost entirely removes the possibility of a man causing an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy.
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:10 am

Isles of Eamhna wrote:has the pro-life crowd considered the possibility of reducing the overall prevalence of abortion by mandating vasectomies for men? modern vasectomy surgery (and vasectomy reversal surgery) is a generally safe procedure with low chance of complications that almost entirely removes the possibility of a man causing an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy.


That solution doesn't involve controlling women, so they're against it.
Last edited by Vassenor on Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Grave_n_idle
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Postby Grave_n_idle » Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:23 am

Dogmeat wrote:
Sundiata wrote: :lol:

It's no use Grave. Even if you were to give them 99 reasons why they're doing religion wrong. They would just respond by ignoring you, and killing a million Germans.


I'm fine with Sun 'doing it wrong', I'm picking up his religious anti-abortion arguments (or in this case, religious hijack) and explaining where they are wrong for the benefit of others.
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Esternial
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Postby Esternial » Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:33 pm

Isles of Eamhna wrote:has the pro-life crowd considered the possibility of reducing the overall prevalence of abortion by mandating vasectomies for men? modern vasectomy surgery (and vasectomy reversal surgery) is a generally safe procedure with low chance of complications that almost entirely removes the possibility of a man causing an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy.

I've considered this idea as well. Putting aside the fact that making it mandatory could be rather draconian, it would result in more/all pregnancies being a fully conscious choice rather one that is made passively.

Sounds impossible to sell to most of humanity, though - even I am a bit apprehensive about it, and I don't even dislike the idea.

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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:36 pm

Isles of Eamhna wrote:has the pro-life crowd considered the possibility of reducing the overall prevalence of abortion by mandating vasectomies for men? modern vasectomy surgery (and vasectomy reversal surgery) is a generally safe procedure with low chance of complications that almost entirely removes the possibility of a man causing an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy.


I suggested it as a "reasonable" alternative. I also suggested that for this to work sperm banks would be important.
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:59 pm

Grave_n_idle wrote:
Dogmeat wrote:It's no use Grave. Even if you were to give them 99 reasons why they're doing religion wrong. They would just respond by ignoring you, and killing a million Germans.


I'm fine with Sun 'doing it wrong', I'm picking up his religious anti-abortion arguments (or in this case, religious hijack) and explaining where they are wrong for the benefit of others.

I'm not making religious arguments. And second, there's nothing wrong with Catholicism.
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Stellar Colonies
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:10 pm

Isles of Eamhna wrote:has the pro-life crowd considered the possibility of reducing the overall prevalence of abortion by mandating vasectomies for men? modern vasectomy surgery (and vasectomy reversal surgery) is a generally safe procedure with low chance of complications that almost entirely removes the possibility of a man causing an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy.

Number one, vasectomies are still difficult to reverse and surgery like that probably shouldn't be viewed as a normal birth control method.

Number two (for anyone who unfortunately focuses first on women's rights and views men's rights as subordinate to them), it sets a terrible precedent for bodily autonomy and would only encourage advocation of similar control being forced on female bodies like aforementioned abortion restrictions, unless a double standard is held between male and female bodily autonomy (which in itself is bad for what I hope is obvious reasons).

Number three (building on number two) it would be a heavy blow against efforts to get rid of infant circumcision, and that cannot be allowed. Male bodily autonomy has already trampled upon enough by normalizing baby cutting, making that worse in a self-defeating gotcha is not a good idea.

Terrible idea all around.
Last edited by Stellar Colonies on Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:51 pm

People who support forced pregnancy will obviously oppose forced vasectomies because they are, fundamentally, misogynists. It's funny to get them to admit that, but obviously there's no solution to be derived from that fact.
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The Kingdom of The Three Isles
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Postby The Kingdom of The Three Isles » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:53 pm

Dogmeat wrote:
Sundiata wrote: :lol:

It's no use Grave. Even if you were to give them 99 reasons why they're doing religion wrong. They would just respond by ignoring you, and killing a million Germans.

Ok what? I’m simply following my religion, not your cult. Now be quiet. And no, I don’t massacre Germans lol.
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The Kingdom of The Three Isles
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Postby The Kingdom of The Three Isles » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:54 pm

Grave_n_idle wrote:
Dogmeat wrote:It's no use Grave. Even if you were to give them 99 reasons why they're doing religion wrong. They would just respond by ignoring you, and killing a million Germans.


I'm fine with Sun 'doing it wrong', I'm picking up his religious anti-abortion arguments (or in this case, religious hijack) and explaining where they are wrong for the benefit of others.

Did you just assume that I was pro life? Man, can someone prove them wrong because they won’t believe me. Neutraligon you tell em.
Last edited by The Kingdom of The Three Isles on Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gender: Male
Religion: Christianity
Political Compass: LibRight
Moral Alignment: Neutral Good
No, this is not the Iron Cross, and no I ain’t a N@zi.
IC name is The Three Isles
Those who say they are based aren’t based. Those who say they are humble ain’t humble. Those who say they are chads ain’t chads.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:54 pm

The Kingdom Of The Three Isles wrote:
Dogmeat wrote:It's no use Grave. Even if you were to give them 99 reasons why they're doing religion wrong. They would just respond by ignoring you, and killing a million Germans.

Ok what? I’m simply following my religion, not your cult. Now be quiet. And no, I don’t massacre Germans lol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninety-five_Theses
Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Mask Wearing That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing

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The Kingdom of The Three Isles
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Postby The Kingdom of The Three Isles » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:55 pm

Ifreann wrote:
The Kingdom Of The Three Isles wrote:Ok what? I’m simply following my religion, not your cult. Now be quiet. And no, I don’t massacre Germans lol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninety-five_Theses

I’m not Catholic if that is what you think…
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No, this is not the Iron Cross, and no I ain’t a N@zi.
IC name is The Three Isles
Those who say they are based aren’t based. Those who say they are humble ain’t humble. Those who say they are chads ain’t chads.

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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:56 pm

The Kingdom Of The Three Isles wrote:
Grave_n_idle wrote:
I'm fine with Sun 'doing it wrong', I'm picking up his religious anti-abortion arguments (or in this case, religious hijack) and explaining where they are wrong for the benefit of others.

Did you just assume that I was pro life? Man, can someone prove them wrong because they won’t believe me. Neutraligon you tell em.

Nobody even mentioned you in that post...
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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The Kingdom of The Three Isles
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Founded: Jun 01, 2021
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Kingdom of The Three Isles » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:57 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
The Kingdom Of The Three Isles wrote:Did you just assume that I was pro life? Man, can someone prove them wrong because they won’t believe me. Neutraligon you tell em.

Nobody even mentioned you in that post...

Oh ok. Oof…my bad. :?
Gender: Male
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No, this is not the Iron Cross, and no I ain’t a N@zi.
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Those who say they are based aren’t based. Those who say they are humble ain’t humble. Those who say they are chads ain’t chads.

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