[Abortion Thread] (POLL 4) A compromising position...

[Cekovia]

people in this thread are arguing that they should be. hence the conversation we r having

That seems to be a misrepresentation, though mayhap it happened before I popped back into this thread. I was under the impression folks were saying that doctors should be able to refuse to carry out an abortion if they did not agree with the reason. I then pointed out that the reason is not particularly relevant, and the doctors that DO carry out abortions do so willingly, with or without knowing what those reasons are.

one person was saying that doctors should not be allowed to ask the reason.

the right of one human being to LIVE outweighs another's to be comfortable . they are NOT in ANY way equivalent.
if im a neo-Nazi and i see a disabled jew on the bus, i become uncomfortable. i do not then have the right to murder him, do i???

Ah I see we're going straight to nazi comparisons, classy.
And being forced to risk your life and health cannot simply be dismissed as 'discomfort', so trying to equate that to 'seeing a jew on a bus' is simply very, very stupid.

for a completely normal pregnancy that the person initially Elected for as in the clean example i provided, any (relatively small) risk to the pregnant woman's life and health would be one which she chose in the first place.

[Genivaria]

That seems to be a misrepresentation, though mayhap it happened before I popped back into this thread. I was under the impression folks were saying that doctors should be able to refuse to carry out an abortion if they did not agree with the reason. I then pointed out that the reason is not particularly relevant, and the doctors that DO carry out abortions do so willingly, with or without knowing what those reasons are.

one person was saying that doctors should not be allowed to ask the reason.

Ah I see we're going straight to nazi comparisons, classy.
And being forced to risk your life and health cannot simply be dismissed as 'discomfort', so trying to equate that to 'seeing a jew on a bus' is simply very, very stupid.

for a completely normal pregnancy that the person initially Elected for as in the clean example i provided, any (relatively small) risk to the pregnant woman's life and health would be one which she chose in the first place.

Ah yes there it is, ultimately you don't care about the life of the mother, I think I'll let the doctor and patient be the one to weigh that risk thanks.
And no if she is getting an abortion she is literally choosing not to be pregnant, the fact that you are trying to fabricate consent is really creepy.

[Cekovia]

one person was saying that doctors should not be allowed to ask the reason.

for a completely normal pregnancy that the person initially Elected for as in the clean example i provided, any (relatively small) risk to the pregnant woman's life and health would be one which she chose in the first place.

Ah yes there it is, ultimately you don't care about the life of the mother, I think I'll let the doctor and patient be the one to weigh that risk thanks.

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And no if she is getting an abortion she is literally choosing not to be pregnant, the fact that you are trying to fabricate consent is really creepy.

if u have unprotected sex with the intention of getting pregnant u r agreeing to carry that child to term, as i see it. u can't commit murder because u changed ur mind. same as if u adopt a child u can't decide u don't want it and just kill it

[Genivaria]

Ah yes there it is, ultimately you don't care about the life of the mother, I think I'll let the doctor and patient be the one to weigh that risk thanks.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????

And no if she is getting an abortion she is literally choosing not to be pregnant, the fact that you are trying to fabricate consent is really creepy.

if u have unprotected sex with the intention of getting pregnant u r agreeing to carry that child to term, as i see it. u can't commit murder because u changed ur mind. same as if u adopt a child u can't decide u don't want it and just kill it

Except that you can actually stop a pregnancy, you can't unmurder a person. The two do not equate.

same as if u adopt a child u can't decide u don't want it and just kill it

Not but you can return the child. You're really bad at these analogies.

[Cekovia]

?????????????????????????????????????????????????

if u have unprotected sex with the intention of getting pregnant u r agreeing to carry that child to term, as i see it. u can't commit murder because u changed ur mind. same as if u adopt a child u can't decide u don't want it and just kill it

Except that you can actually stop a pregnancy, you can't unmurder a person. The two do not equate.

???????????????????????? im not equating murdering a child to getting pregnant , how the hell would ur mind jump to that instead of the obvious analogy which is that murdering an unborn child that you committed to taking care of is the same as murdering a born child that you committed to taking care of

same as if u adopt a child u can't decide u don't want it and just kill it

Not but you can return the child. You're really bad at these analogies.

should you, ethically speaking, commit to adoption if you aren't willing to keep the child?

[Genivaria]

Except that you can actually stop a pregnancy, you can't unmurder a person. The two do not equate.

???????????????????????? im not equating murdering a child to getting pregnant , how the hell would ur mind jump to that instead of the obvious analogy which is that murdering an unborn child that you committed to taking care of is the same as murdering a born child that you committed to taking care of

Not but you can return the child. You're really bad at these analogies.

should you, ethically speaking, commit to adoption if you aren't willing to keep the child?

If you aren't willing to KEEP the child yes, if you aren't willing to continue the pregnancy than there's no ethical reason to continue it.

which is that murdering an unborn child that you committed to taking care

You're assuming that 1. They've made such a commitment and that 2. That abortions are murder which is a flat assertion that I don't accept.
It's the woman's body, if she doesn't want her body being used than she has the right to not have it used by someone else without their consent.
That is all I care about frankly.

[Cekovia]

???????????????????????? im not equating murdering a child to getting pregnant , how the hell would ur mind jump to that instead of the obvious analogy which is that murdering an unborn child that you committed to taking care of is the same as murdering a born child that you committed to taking care of

should you, ethically speaking, commit to adoption if you aren't willing to keep the child?

If you aren't willing to KEEP the child yes, if you aren't willing to continue the pregnancy than there's no ethical reason to continue it.

other than that, you know, you shouldn't murder children. but that's just a tiny ethical quibble

which is that murdering an unborn child that you committed to taking care

You're assuming that 1. They've made such a commitment and that 2. That abortions are murder which is a flat assertion that I don't accept.
It's the woman's body, if she doesn't want her body being used than she has the right to not have it used by someone else without their consent.
That is all I care about frankly.

you are perhaps forgetting the scenario which we are discussing. which Is that the woman Has made such a commitment, by intentionally having unprotected sex. abortion is the taking of an innocent human life and it is murder.

[Genivaria]

If you aren't willing to KEEP the child yes, if you aren't willing to continue the pregnancy than there's no ethical reason to continue it.

other than that, you know, you shouldn't murder children. but that's just a tiny ethical quibble

You're assuming that 1. They've made such a commitment and that 2. That abortions are murder which is a flat assertion that I don't accept.
It's the woman's body, if she doesn't want her body being used than she has the right to not have it used by someone else without their consent.
That is all I care about frankly.

you are perhaps forgetting the scenario which we are discussing. which Is that the woman Has made such a commitment, by intentionally having unprotected sex. abortion is the taking of an innocent human life and it is murder.

Ah we're back to you fabricating their consent. Top tier creeper vibes.

[Cekovia]

other than that, you know, you shouldn't murder children. but that's just a tiny ethical quibble

you are perhaps forgetting the scenario which we are discussing. which Is that the woman Has made such a commitment, by intentionally having unprotected sex. abortion is the taking of an innocent human life and it is murder.

Ah we're back to you fabricating their consent. Top tier creeper vibes.

guy who is incapable of making an actual point so just gives up and starts trying 2 spin the idea that anything he disagrees with is rape

[Genivaria]

Ah we're back to you fabricating their consent. Top tier creeper vibes.

guy who is incapable of making an actual point so just gives up and starts trying 2 spin the idea that anything he disagrees with is rape

You keep trying to fabricate consent for other people, if that draws comparison to rape, well that's inevitable.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Ah we're back to you fabricating their consent. Top tier creeper vibes.

guy who is incapable of making an actual point so just gives up and starts trying 2 spin the idea that anything he disagrees with is rape

Maybe not rape but your point is pretty silly. Consent to unprotected sex is consent to unprotected sex, nothing more. It's p dumb to do if you don't want to get pregnant but it's not consent to bearing a child.

[The Caleshan Valkyrie]

If you aren't willing to KEEP the child yes, if you aren't willing to continue the pregnancy than there's no ethical reason to continue it.

other than that, you know, you shouldn't murder children. but that's just a tiny ethical quibble

You're assuming that 1. They've made such a commitment and that 2. That abortions are murder which is a flat assertion that I don't accept.
It's the woman's body, if she doesn't want her body being used than she has the right to not have it used by someone else without their consent.
That is all I care about frankly.

you are perhaps forgetting the scenario which we are discussing. which Is that the woman Has made such a commitment, by intentionally having unprotected sex. abortion is the taking of an innocent human life and it is murder.

There are any number of reasons that a woman might have unprotected sex while not wishing to get pregnant. Lack of access to contraceptives, improper education on the subject, so on and so forth. An easy way to rectify THAT problem would be to make contraception free and to ensure that children are provided a sufficiently comprehensive sex-ed curriculum.

This says nothing of the fact that consent can be revoked, even if it was initially given.

[Cekovia]

guy who is incapable of making an actual point so just gives up and starts trying 2 spin the idea that anything he disagrees with is rape

Maybe not rape but your point is pretty silly. Consent to unprotected sex is consent to unprotected sex, nothing more. It's p dumb to do if you don't want to get pregnant but it's not consent to bearing a child.

bro, i said 'with the intention of getting pregnant.' the scenario at hand is that our hypothetical woman gets pregnant on purpose & changes her mind after pregnancy turns out to feel pretty awful. im arguing that she made the commitment to carry a child to term and not have it murdered by deciding to get pregnant, even if she has to sacrifice some comfort. genivaria is arguing that that is rape because he is incapable of coming up with an actual point

[Genivaria]

guy who is incapable of making an actual point so just gives up and starts trying 2 spin the idea that anything he disagrees with is rape

Maybe not rape but your point is pretty silly. Consent to unprotected sex is consent to unprotected sex, nothing more. It's p dumb to do if you don't want to get pregnant but it's not consent to bearing a child.

Precisely, their reasoning is solely applied to pregnancy and never applied to things like theft, murder, or any form of insurance.
I could be stupid, not pay attention to where I'm going and crash into a tree and yet my insurance will still cover my hospital bill and give me money to buy a new car.
If we used Cekovia's logic consistently than both law enforcement and insurance would basically be out of a job.
"Oh you were in a bad neighborhood with a nice car, what did you expect?'

[Cekovia]

Maybe not rape but your point is pretty silly. Consent to unprotected sex is consent to unprotected sex, nothing more. It's p dumb to do if you don't want to get pregnant but it's not consent to bearing a child.

Precisely, their reasoning is solely applied to pregnancy and never applied to things like theft, murder, or any form of insurance.
I could be stupid, not pay attention to where I'm going and crash into a tree and yet my insurance will still cover my hospital bill and give me money to buy a new car.
If we used Cekovia's logic consistently than both law enforcement and insurance would basically be out of a job.
"Oh you were in a bad neighborhood with a nice car, what did you expect?'

this is a retarded analogy. i'm saying that if you drive towards a wall intentionally with the intention of destroying your car, you shouldn't get an insurance payout that pays for you to get your car back when you decide you actually wanted your car. you have to deal with the consequences of your own actions

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

bro, i said 'with the intention of getting pregnant.'

Shit may change within the span of 4 months, biological incompatibility may kick in and kill the woman, the fetus may get hung up in the fallopian tubes or plainly rejected by the woman's immune system. And those are just the biological complications that comes to my mind.
Loads of shit can happen that can cause a change of mind within a mere 4 months.

[Cekovia]

also, getting an insurance payout is really under no circumstances directly analogous to murdering a human. just using it here for convenience

[Cekovia]

bro, i said 'with the intention of getting pregnant.'

Shit may change within the span of 4 months, biological incompatibility may kick in and kill the woman, the fetus may get hung up in the fallopian tubes or plainly rejected by the woman's immune system.
Loads of shit can happen that can cause a change of mind within a mere 4 months.

MAYBE YOU PEOPLE SHOULD READ UP THE FUCKING QUOTE CHAIN INSTEAD OF JUMPING IJNTO A CONVERSATION U ARENT A PART OF SO THAT YOU SEE THE FACT THAT I ADDRESSED ALL OF THIS WHEN INITIALLY LAYING OUT THE HYPOTHETICAL

[Genivaria]

Precisely, their reasoning is solely applied to pregnancy and never applied to things like theft, murder, or any form of insurance.
I could be stupid, not pay attention to where I'm going and crash into a tree and yet my insurance will still cover my hospital bill and give me money to buy a new car.
If we used Cekovia's logic consistently than both law enforcement and insurance would basically be out of a job.
"Oh you were in a bad neighborhood with a nice car, what did you expect?'

this is a retarded analogy. i'm saying that if you drive towards a wall intentionally with the intention of destroying your car, you shouldn't get an insurance payout that pays for you to get your car back when you decide you actually wanted your car. you have to deal with the consequences of your own actions

You accuse my analogy of being 'retarded' without showing how and then make an extremely stupid analogy.
You cannot uncrash your car, you can however terminate a pregnancy.
Not sure how I can make this more simple.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Shit may change within the span of 4 months, biological incompatibility may kick in and kill the woman, the fetus may get hung up in the fallopian tubes or plainly rejected by the woman's immune system.
Loads of shit can happen that can cause a change of mind within a mere 4 months.

MAYBE YOU PEOPLE SHOULD READ UP THE FUCKING QUOTE CHAIN INSTEAD OF JUMPING IJNTO A CONVERSATION U ARENT A PART OF SO THAT YOU SEE THE FACT THAT I ADDRESSED ALL OF THIS WHEN INITIALLY LAYING OUT THE HYPOTHETICAL

An ectopic pregnancy can force a change of mind whether you personally like it or not.

[The Caleshan Valkyrie]

Precisely, their reasoning is solely applied to pregnancy and never applied to things like theft, murder, or any form of insurance.
I could be stupid, not pay attention to where I'm going and crash into a tree and yet my insurance will still cover my hospital bill and give me money to buy a new car.
If we used Cekovia's logic consistently than both law enforcement and insurance would basically be out of a job.
"Oh you were in a bad neighborhood with a nice car, what did you expect?'

this is a retarded analogy. i'm saying that if you drive towards a wall intentionally with the intention of destroying your car, you shouldn't get an insurance payout that pays for you to get your car back when you decide you actually wanted your car. you have to deal with the consequences of your own actions

It would be a better analogy if we were talking about medical treatment after driving into a wall intentionally.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

MAYBE YOU PEOPLE SHOULD READ UP THE FUCKING QUOTE CHAIN INSTEAD OF JUMPING IJNTO A CONVERSATION U ARENT A PART OF SO THAT YOU SEE THE FACT THAT I ADDRESSED ALL OF THIS WHEN INITIALLY LAYING OUT THE HYPOTHETICAL

An ectopic pregnancy can force a change of mind whether you personally like it or not.

Furthermore you presume that she will not change her mind ever... to which I say eppur si muove.

[Cekovia]

this is a retarded analogy. i'm saying that if you drive towards a wall intentionally with the intention of destroying your car, you shouldn't get an insurance payout that pays for you to get your car back when you decide you actually wanted your car. you have to deal with the consequences of your own actions

You accuse my analogy of being 'retarded' without showing how and then make an extremely stupid analogy.
You cannot uncrash your car, you can however terminate a pregnancy.
Not sure how I can make this more simple.

guy who completely fails to understand the relevant part of an analogy because he thinks every analogy must be 100% and directly extensible to any scenario with a mere replacement of words

this is a retarded analogy. i'm saying that if you drive towards a wall intentionally with the intention of destroying your car, you shouldn't get an insurance payout that pays for you to get your car back when you decide you actually wanted your car. you have to deal with the consequences of your own actions

It would be a better analogy if we were talking about medical treatment after driving into a wall intentionally.

abortion is not the same thing as first aid. i'm all for providing ailing pregnant women with remedies for pains and sicknesses that don't involve murder (i think a big problem with our healthcare system is its insistence on not using natural remedies & making pregnancy worse than it has 2 be bc most of the cures they have for things like pain or nausea are unnatural synthesized chemicals that r bad for babies, which contributes to this, but that's a separate discussion) .

MAYBE YOU PEOPLE SHOULD READ UP THE FUCKING QUOTE CHAIN INSTEAD OF JUMPING IJNTO A CONVERSATION U ARENT A PART OF SO THAT YOU SEE THE FACT THAT I ADDRESSED ALL OF THIS WHEN INITIALLY LAYING OUT THE HYPOTHETICAL

An ectopic pregnancy can force a change of mind whether you personally like it or not.

PLEASE FUCKING READ UP THE CHAIN LIKE I ASKED, U ARE STILL ASSUMING SHTI INSTEAD OF JUST TAKING 5 MINUTES TO READ

[Lamoni]

...No I would not recommend random performing of surgery, especially if that surgery is against the will of the woman, but then a patient saying they no longer wish to be pregnant is not a random performing of surgery.

holy shit how are you this bad at parsing English text? this is a level of reading comprehension i would expect from a 3rd grader, not an adult.

More then that doctors do tell women having an abortion the possible risks and complication both when having an in clinic abortion and when using an abortion pill. They also tell these women what to look out for in case of the rare serious complication that can arise...just like any other medical procedure or medicine. The reason why a woman is having an abortion, aside from the pregnancy itself being dangerous to the mother, does not have any effect on the risks of abortion itself.

it does not necessarily have an effect on the risks of abortion, but it does have an effect on whether that abortion would be medically ethical to perform.

*** 7-day ban for flaming, given history ***

[The Caleshan Valkyrie]

It would be a better analogy if we were talking about medical treatment after driving into a wall intentionally.

abortion is not the same thing as first aid. i'm all for providing ailing pregnant women with remedies for pains and sicknesses that don't involve murder (i think a big problem with our healthcare system is its insistence on not using natural remedies & making pregnancy worse than it has 2 be bc most of the cures they have for things like pain or nausea are unnatural synthesized chemicals that r bad for babies, which contributes to this, but that's a separate discussion) .

It is a great deal more applicable than an insurance claim. Also, abortion IS a medical procedure, whether you appreciate that or not, and as it is currently legal it cannot be murder any more than defending oneself from an attacker is not inherently murder.