[Abortion Thread] (POLL 4) A compromising position...

[American Legionaries]

Since the whole soul thing was brought up again...
The belief held by most Christians and most monotheists in general is that the soul of an aborted fetus will go straight to heaven.

Is it? The traditional view is that one needs to actively accept Jesus (or at least have undergone some ritual like baptism).
It is why missionaries exist - they believe that people unware of Jesus and therefor not able to embrace him will go to hell.

To be fair, while some may believe that there are probably enough belief systems on the mechanism of salvation to make this a far more complex topic than either you or Page is giving it credit for. Although I have never heard anyone assert Page's example.

[Necroghastia]

[
A human is a human from conception, and it develops on its own.

No it doesn't. That is just factually incorrect.

It is its own being.

Point to me the delineation between a zygote or fetus and its carrier.

Just because something relies on another thing does not mean it is that which it depends on. (i.e. A human on a ventilator does not belong to a ventilator)

A ventilator is not alive. False equivalency.

That being may not have a say in what happens to it, but you would kill someone who couldn't speak, see, hear, or move just because they can't stop you.

DO you honestly think that that is why people have abortions? For the hell of it?

Abortion is murder.

nah

Each individual has the chance to become someone, do something. You destroy their uniqueness and potential when you kill them. Each person is inherently good and made in the image of God; we all have human dignity.

Each person is inherently good? Even John Wayne Gacy? Ed Gein?

Not only is immoral and wrong, but it is selfish to abort a life.

How?

If you can raise and have a child, you have no excuse.

Many people lack the means to raise a child.

If the child's life is in danger, you don't kill them, you try to save their life. If they die, after all you could do to save their life, then that is what God wanted for them.

kinda sadistic of him tbqh

[Vassenor]

From the CCC:
2270: Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.₇₂

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.₇₃
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.₇₄

2271: Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.₇₅

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.₇₆

2272: Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"₇₇ "by the very commission of the offense,"₇₈ and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.₇₉ The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273: The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."₈₀

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."₈₁

2274: Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."₈₂

2275:

"One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."₈₃

A human is a human from conception, and it develops on its own. It is its own being. Just because something relies on another thing does not mean it is that which it depends on. (i.e. A human on a ventilator does not belong to a ventilator) That being may not have a say in what happens to it, but you would kill someone who couldn't speak, see, hear, or move just because they can't stop you. Abortion is murder. Each individual has the chance to become someone, do something. You destroy their uniqueness and potential when you kill them. Each person is inherently good and made in the image of God; we all have human dignity.

Not only is immoral and wrong, but it is selfish to abort a life. If you can raise and have a child, you have no excuse. If the child's life is in danger, you don't kill them, you try to save their life. If they die, after all you could do to save their life, then that is what God wanted for them. A child that survives, even with defects, has been put there for a reason.

(Psalm 1:1–6; Luke 6:20–23)
₃“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
₄Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
₅Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
₆Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
₇Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
₈Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
₉Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
₁₀Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

The only time when it is okay to have an abortion, in my opinion, is when the mother's life is in danger after every other option has been exhausted to their limits.

OK, so you have no objections to welfare being paid from the moment of conception. Or for anyone concieved on US soil to be considered a US Citizen regardless of where they are born.

[American Legionaries]

From the CCC:
2270: Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.₇₂



2271: Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:



God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.₇₆

2272: Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"₇₇ "by the very commission of the offense,"₇₈ and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.₇₉ The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273: The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:



"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."₈₁

2274: Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."₈₂

2275:

A human is a human from conception, and it develops on its own. It is its own being. Just because something relies on another thing does not mean it is that which it depends on. (i.e. A human on a ventilator does not belong to a ventilator) That being may not have a say in what happens to it, but you would kill someone who couldn't speak, see, hear, or move just because they can't stop you. Abortion is murder. Each individual has the chance to become someone, do something. You destroy their uniqueness and potential when you kill them. Each person is inherently good and made in the image of God; we all have human dignity.

Not only is immoral and wrong, but it is selfish to abort a life. If you can raise and have a child, you have no excuse. If the child's life is in danger, you don't kill them, you try to save their life. If they die, after all you could do to save their life, then that is what God wanted for them. A child that survives, even with defects, has been put there for a reason.

(Psalm 1:1–6; Luke 6:20–23)
₃“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
₄Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
₅Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
₆Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
₇Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
₈Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
₉Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
₁₀Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

The only time when it is okay to have an abortion, in my opinion, is when the mother's life is in danger after every other option has been exhausted to their limits.

OK, so you have no objections to welfare being paid from the moment of conception. Or for anyone concieved on US soil to be considered a US Citizen regardless of where they are born.

It may be worth noting that the WIC program is functionally a welfare program for unborn children.

[Islamic Essarn]

There’s not a lot of point in arguing with the pro-choice crowd.

They think that being anti-abortion is some kind of evil, misogynistic effort to “control women”, when it’s actually just concern about a baby’s life.

First of all, the “baby” is not conscious until at last 24 weeks, at which point abortion is not actually legal under roe v wade. Second of all the “baby” is inside of someone’s body making it that persons property. Third of all, it is a way of controlling womens bodies because it takes away a persons right to control there body. Also f*ck of since your problebly just some horrible misogynistic man who does’t actually care about babies and just wants to send u back to the 1940s.

[The Free Republican Union]

From the CCC:
2270: Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.₇₂



2271: Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:



God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.₇₆

2272: Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"₇₇ "by the very commission of the offense,"₇₈ and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.₇₉ The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273: The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:



"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."₈₁

2274: Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."₈₂

2275:

A human is a human from conception, and it develops on its own. It is its own being. Just because something relies on another thing does not mean it is that which it depends on. (i.e. A human on a ventilator does not belong to a ventilator) That being may not have a say in what happens to it, but you would kill someone who couldn't speak, see, hear, or move just because they can't stop you. Abortion is murder. Each individual has the chance to become someone, do something. You destroy their uniqueness and potential when you kill them. Each person is inherently good and made in the image of God; we all have human dignity.

Not only is immoral and wrong, but it is selfish to abort a life. If you can raise and have a child, you have no excuse. If the child's life is in danger, you don't kill them, you try to save their life. If they die, after all you could do to save their life, then that is what God wanted for them. A child that survives, even with defects, has been put there for a reason.

(Psalm 1:1–6; Luke 6:20–23)
₃“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
₄Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
₅Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
₆Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
₇Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
₈Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
₉Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
₁₀Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

The only time when it is okay to have an abortion, in my opinion, is when the mother's life is in danger after every other option has been exhausted to their limits.

OK, so you have no objections to welfare being paid from the moment of conception. Or for anyone concieved on US soil to be considered a US Citizen regardless of where they are born.

Firstly, I wouldn't, however, I don't believe in lots of welfare period; we have organizations and charities to help those who need it. If they don't exist, then the government can give vocal support to the opening of charities.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

AL, are split-brain people (people whose left and right brain halves are not connected) two people, or one person?

[Islamic Essarn]

I have a question for the pro lifers : do you eat, like you seem so obsessed with unconscious life so i can only assume that you don’t eat anything since that would be killing innocent life ye know.

[Islamic Essarn]

Oh, and pro lifers should you be able to have an abortion if you are going to die if you have the baby.

[The Free Republican Union]

[
A human is a human from conception, and it develops on its own.

No it doesn't. That is just factually incorrect.

It is its own being.

Point to me the delineation between a zygote or fetus and its carrier.

Just because something relies on another thing does not mean it is that which it depends on. (i.e. A human on a ventilator does not belong to a ventilator)

A ventilator is not alive. False equivalency.

That being may not have a say in what happens to it, but you would kill someone who couldn't speak, see, hear, or move just because they can't stop you.

DO you honestly think that that is why people have abortions? For the hell of it?

Abortion is murder.

nah

Each individual has the chance to become someone, do something. You destroy their uniqueness and potential when you kill them. Each person is inherently good and made in the image of God; we all have human dignity.

Each person is inherently good? Even John Wayne Gacy? Ed Gein?

Not only is immoral and wrong, but it is selfish to abort a life.

How?

If you can raise and have a child, you have no excuse.

Many people lack the means to raise a child.

If the child's life is in danger, you don't kill them, you try to save their life. If they die, after all you could do to save their life, then that is what God wanted for them.

kinda sadistic of him tbqh

To your first point: It develops with help from the parent--it needs the parent for most of its life--but you don't kill a baby cause it happens to need you. You wouldn't kill your grandpa by not giving him required meds, would you?
I'm skipping your second point.
To your third point: I'm not saying a ventilator is alive. I'm just saying the ventilator helps that which relies on it--you're missing the point.
To your fourth: I didn't say that or try to communicate that at all. But since you brought that up, sometimes, they do.
To your sixth: Yes. Those people were born without sin. They decided to do what they did. You could have been good people, but we have free will.
To your seventh: If you can have a baby that is heathy without endangering yourself, why would you not want to experience the greatest gift of all?
To your eighth: There are ways to get around that like adoption. (Which should be promoted more btw)

[The Free Republican Union]

AL, are split-brain people (people whose left and right brain halves are not connected) two people, or one person?

Will your left/right brain develop into a new person with its own soul? If not, then it's a no.

[The Free Republican Union]

Oh, and pro lifers should you be able to have an abortion if you are going to die if you have the baby.

That is the one case in which it may be necessary. Having two people die is not good. If all the options have been exhausted, then that is the only time an abortion should happen.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

AL, are split-brain people (people whose left and right brain halves are not connected) two people, or one person?

Will your left/right brain develop into a new person with its own soul? If not, then it's a no.

that was a A/B question, not a Yes/No question.

also, define “soul”. the halves have been observed to “disagree” over things, and one side cannot perceive information from the other.

[The Free Republican Union]

I have a question for the pro lifers : do you eat, like you seem so obsessed with unconscious life so i can only assume that you don’t eat anything since that would be killing innocent life ye know.

Does lettuce become a sentient being that has developed feelings and is part of the most advanced species on the planet?

[Vassenor]

Reminder that in the US at least Religion has no right to be influencing laws.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

I have a question for the pro lifers : do you eat, like you seem so obsessed with unconscious life so i can only assume that you don’t eat anything since that would be killing innocent life ye know.

Does lettuce become a sentient being that has developed feelings and is part of the most advanced species on the planet?

hey. what if I told you that I had an implant that could make any animal sentient and I was going to put it in a cow at random sometime within the next 30 years. should you not eat beef because it has the potential to become sentient?

[Jewish Underground State]

Reminder that in the US at least Religion has no right to be influencing laws.

And yet it still does. Most of the pro life arguments are based around versions of catholicism.

[Islamic Essarn]

I have a question for the pro lifers : do you eat, like you seem so obsessed with unconscious life so i can only assume that you don’t eat anything since that would be killing innocent life ye know.

Does lettuce become a sentient being that has developed feelings and is part of the most advanced species on the planet?

I have a question : if someone kills a teenager are they killing a 60 year old just because if they had not killed the teenager then they might have become a 60 year old

[The Free Republican Union]

Will your left/right brain develop into a new person with its own soul? If not, then it's a no.

that was a A/B question, not a Yes/No question.

also, define “soul”. the halves have been observed to “disagree” over things, and one side cannot perceive information from the other.

They're still one person.

362: The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."₂₂₉ Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

363: In Sacred Scripture the term "soul" often refers to human life or the entire human person.₂₃₀ But "soul" also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,₂₃₁ that by which he is most especially in God's image: "soul" signifies the spiritual principle in man.

364: The human body shares in the dignity of "the image of God": it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:232

Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day. ₂₃₃

There is your answer.

[The] human life or the entire human person[.]

By killing baby, you kill the soul with it.

[Jewish Underground State]

that was a A/B question, not a Yes/No question.

also, define “soul”. the halves have been observed to “disagree” over things, and one side cannot perceive information from the other.

They're still one person.

362: The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."₂₂₉ Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

363: In Sacred Scripture the term "soul" often refers to human life or the entire human person.₂₃₀ But "soul" also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,₂₃₁ that by which he is most especially in God's image: "soul" signifies the spiritual principle in man.

364: The human body shares in the dignity of "the image of God": it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:232

Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day. ₂₃₃

There is your answer.

[The] human life or the entire human person[.]

By killing baby, you kill the soul with it.

How do we even know if souls exist?

[The Free Republican Union]

Reminder that in the US at least Religion has no right to be influencing laws.

Is murder not against the law?

[The Free Republican Union]

Does lettuce become a sentient being that has developed feelings and is part of the most advanced species on the planet?

I have a question : if someone kills a teenager are they killing a 60 year old just because if they had not killed the teenager then they might have become a 60 year old

What? Either way they still kill someone--what's your point?

[Godular]

Reminder that in the US at least Religion has no right to be influencing laws.

Is murder not against the law?

Is self-defense murder?

[Islamic Essarn]

Reminder that in the US at least Religion has no right to be influencing laws.

Is murder not against the law?

First of all no abortion happens after the foetus has any kind of consciousness, second of all if a person comes into your house without you consent then you are allowed to forcible remove them from your home or even kill, third of all it’s not conscious

[The Free Republican Union]

They're still one person.

362: The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."₂₂₉ Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

363: In Sacred Scripture the term "soul" often refers to human life or the entire human person.₂₃₀ But "soul" also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,₂₃₁ that by which he is most especially in God's image: "soul" signifies the spiritual principle in man.

364: The human body shares in the dignity of "the image of God": it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:²³²

There is your answer.

By killing baby, you kill the soul with it.

How do we even know if souls exist?

We don't. But I believe in one.