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[Abortion Thread] (POLL 4) A compromising position...

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What would you consider to be the best 'compromise'?

Reduce abortions with welfare supports / other non-invasive measures, leave access untouched.
132
33%
Set conditions under which abortions can be accessed.
83
21%
Allow free access, under a given time limit.
38
9%
Allow free access, but give men an option to excuse themselves from child support.
40
10%
HELL WITH COMPROMISE, IT'S MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY!
86
21%
Look out! They're here! Pink Elephants on Parade! Here they come, hippity hoppity!
22
5%
 
Total votes : 401

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Stagnant Axon Terminal
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Postby Stagnant Axon Terminal » Mon May 16, 2022 10:41 pm

Concejos Unidos wrote:
Saiwania wrote:What does getting an abortion mean if the exception is for rape or incest? It means proving to your local magistrate or court that you being raped occurred. This means a long process of accusation, investigation, trial, and settlement and so on to play out. Legal system and processes are glacially slow to play out and can easily be dragged out for 9 months or longer.

Seeking justice from the court for this accomplishes nothing whilst in the meantime, you're getting stuck with a rape baby or pregnancy. And certain people who want an abortion no matter what, will fake or falsify evidence to say they were raped just to get an abortion if that is what it takes.

there's a big difference between convicting a specific person of rape and simply proving that a rape occurred. One is far more simple.

I would like to know how you're going to know that someone is raped? Many people never report it out of fear and shame. So, how would a court determine whether or not someone has been raped?
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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Mon May 16, 2022 11:11 pm

Concejos Unidos wrote:
Saiwania wrote:What does getting an abortion mean if the exception is for rape or incest? It means proving to your local magistrate or court that you being raped occurred. This means a long process of accusation, investigation, trial, and settlement and so on to play out. Legal system and processes are glacially slow to play out and can easily be dragged out for 9 months or longer.

Seeking justice from the court for this accomplishes nothing whilst in the meantime, you're getting stuck with a rape baby or pregnancy. And certain people who want an abortion no matter what, will fake or falsify evidence to say they were raped just to get an abortion if that is what it takes.

there's a big difference between convicting a specific person of rape and simply proving that a rape occurred. One is far more simple.

How so? Unless the victim is 12 or so, making any sex statutory rape, how is it easy to prove sex was rape?

Do note that in Texas rapekits remain on a shelf for up to two years before someone even looks at them. Bit late to decide then.
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Postby Celritannia » Tue May 17, 2022 10:19 am

Saiwania wrote:I've finished my research on the matter, and I've determined that I should move to be in favor of abortion broadly speaking, because it helps more than hurts White America, which is what I'm born into and have a personal stake in. Sort of like how Sweet Johnson is loyal to Grove Street because that is what he was born into and grew up in in that fictional universe.

The Roe v Wade ruling the pro-life camp clutches their pearls over, isn't even that extreme in terms of allowing abortion. It stated that third trimester pregnancy abortions could be banned by states that chose to but that states couldn't do anything about first trimester abortions which is when an abortion should be done anyways, if there is going to be one.


Even when you have a glimpse of hope and understanding, you somehow always make it more disgusting with your comments.

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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Tue May 17, 2022 11:42 am

Celritannia wrote:
Saiwania wrote:I've finished my research on the matter, and I've determined that I should move to be in favor of abortion broadly speaking, because it helps more than hurts White America, which is what I'm born into and have a personal stake in. Sort of like how Sweet Johnson is loyal to Grove Street because that is what he was born into and grew up in in that fictional universe.

The Roe v Wade ruling the pro-life camp clutches their pearls over, isn't even that extreme in terms of allowing abortion. It stated that third trimester pregnancy abortions could be banned by states that chose to but that states couldn't do anything about first trimester abortions which is when an abortion should be done anyways, if there is going to be one.


Even when you have a glimpse of hope and understanding, you somehow always make it more disgusting with your comments.


Though perhaps their reasoning that "abortion should be allowed since it can help reduce the number of mixed-race babies" would be more popular with the GOP than other.
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Postby Hispida » Tue May 17, 2022 1:15 pm

Celritannia wrote:
Saiwania wrote:I've finished my research on the matter, and I've determined that I should move to be in favor of abortion broadly speaking, because it helps more than hurts White America, which is what I'm born into and have a personal stake in. Sort of like how Sweet Johnson is loyal to Grove Street because that is what he was born into and grew up in in that fictional universe.

The Roe v Wade ruling the pro-life camp clutches their pearls over, isn't even that extreme in terms of allowing abortion. It stated that third trimester pregnancy abortions could be banned by states that chose to but that states couldn't do anything about first trimester abortions which is when an abortion should be done anyways, if there is going to be one.


Even when you have a glimpse of hope and understanding, you somehow always make it more disgusting with your comments.

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Postby San Lumen » Tue May 17, 2022 2:33 pm

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/wireS ... n-84784871

Judge suspends Michigan's dormant 1931 abortion ban
A judge has suspended Michigan’s dormant ban on abortion, saying it likely violates the state constitution

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Postby Katganistan » Tue May 17, 2022 7:52 pm

New haven america wrote:
Katganistan wrote:1. What 'birth control ruling'? 2. When did they need a prescription for condoms? 3. Source?

1. Griswold v. Connecticut legalized open access to non-prescribed and non-government restricted birth control for men and women. It's also the ruling that led to the invention of Constitutional Privacy, of which Roe, Loving, and Obgerfell were all ruled on because of.
2. 1873-1964
3. Comstock Act

You don't understand the full scope of what SCOTUS and the GOP are trying to do. (They're also going after gay marriage, Alito had plans in the draft for that too)

Oh no, I knew that -- I believe I mentioned that earlier. Clearly they are also trying to go after trans people too.

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Postby Page » Wed May 18, 2022 6:33 am

Concejos Unidos wrote:
Saiwania wrote:What does getting an abortion mean if the exception is for rape or incest? It means proving to your local magistrate or court that you being raped occurred. This means a long process of accusation, investigation, trial, and settlement and so on to play out. Legal system and processes are glacially slow to play out and can easily be dragged out for 9 months or longer.

Seeking justice from the court for this accomplishes nothing whilst in the meantime, you're getting stuck with a rape baby or pregnancy. And certain people who want an abortion no matter what, will fake or falsify evidence to say they were raped just to get an abortion if that is what it takes.

there's a big difference between convicting a specific person of rape and simply proving that a rape occurred. One is far more simple.


It's really not. It could be simple if there was a third party witness, but most rapes do not involve third party witnesses, because most rapes are committed by people the victim knows, not by some psychopath prowling the streets. Most rape happens in bedrooms, in private residences. There's date rape, there's rape by intimidation, there's rape by refusing to recognize one withdrawing consent, rape by deception, and in none of these cases will you have a witness.

Physical forensic evidence can't prove or disprove a rape. You can't examine a victim and conclude that no rape occurred because there's no bruises or tearing, there are a lot of reasons why a victim won't physically resist. On the flip side, you can't prove that physical damage wasn't the result of consensual rough sex.

Any degree of enforcement of allowing abortions only on the basis of rape will result in rape victims being denied abortion access. Unless you're wanting a system in which somebody just says they were raped and they're taken at their word, in which case, you're just de facto allowing abortions for everyone so why bother with the pretext?
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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Wed May 18, 2022 10:46 pm

Katganistan wrote:
New haven america wrote:1. Griswold v. Connecticut legalized open access to non-prescribed and non-government restricted birth control for men and women. It's also the ruling that led to the invention of Constitutional Privacy, of which Roe, Loving, and Obgerfell were all ruled on because of.
2. 1873-1964
3. Comstock Act

You don't understand the full scope of what SCOTUS and the GOP are trying to do. (They're also going after gay marriage, Alito had plans in the draft for that too)

Oh no, I knew that -- I believe I mentioned that earlier. Clearly they are also trying to go after trans people too.

Then why'd you ask for proof?
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Islamic Essarn
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Postby Islamic Essarn » Fri May 20, 2022 9:36 am

I have a question for all the pro lifers around here : how do you know that the fetus or the embryo or the zygote is alive.

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Islamic Essarn
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Postby Islamic Essarn » Fri May 20, 2022 9:38 am

Also do you think that people who do not have the parts necessary to have children get to have an opinion on abortion

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Postby Elwher » Fri May 20, 2022 10:35 am

Islamic Essarn wrote:Also do you think that people who do not have the parts necessary to have children get to have an opinion on abortion


Yes. It is an issue confronting society, so all members of society have a right to contribute opinions and solutions. People other than murder victim survivors and murderers have a right to their input on capital punishment, do they not?
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Postby Spirit of Hope » Fri May 20, 2022 10:50 am

Elwher wrote:
Islamic Essarn wrote:Also do you think that people who do not have the parts necessary to have children get to have an opinion on abortion


Yes. It is an issue confronting society, so all members of society have a right to contribute opinions and solutions. People other than murder victim survivors and murderers have a right to their input on capital punishment, do they not?


That's a false comparison, anyone can become a murder victim but not everyone can become pregnant. Now I agree that abortion is an issue that confronts all of society, so that everyone is allowed to have an opinion on it. However I think the only logically coherent stance is that abortions should be legal and an individuals choice.
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Postby Vassenor » Fri May 20, 2022 11:28 am

Elwher wrote:
Islamic Essarn wrote:Also do you think that people who do not have the parts necessary to have children get to have an opinion on abortion


Yes. It is an issue confronting society, so all members of society have a right to contribute opinions and solutions. People other than murder victim survivors and murderers have a right to their input on capital punishment, do they not?


So basically you think you should have a right to dictate to people what they can and cannot do with their bodies when it does not affect you in any way.
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Postby American Legionaries » Fri May 20, 2022 12:25 pm

Islamic Essarn wrote:I have a question for all the pro lifers around here : how do you know that the fetus or the embryo or the zygote is alive.


Well we can observe signs of life, they are made up of living cells which replicate and metabolize nutrients.

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Postby Godular » Fri May 20, 2022 12:47 pm

American Legionaries wrote:
Islamic Essarn wrote:I have a question for all the pro lifers around here : how do you know that the fetus or the embryo or the zygote is alive.


Well we can observe signs of life, they are made up of living cells which replicate and metabolize nutrients.


While the cells are living, that does not necessarily make it a living human being. It does not respond to stimuli until very far into the pregnancy.
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Postby American Legionaries » Fri May 20, 2022 12:56 pm

Godular wrote:
American Legionaries wrote:
Well we can observe signs of life, they are made up of living cells which replicate and metabolize nutrients.


While the cells are living, that does not necessarily make it a living human being. It does not respond to stimuli until very far into the pregnancy.


They do, specifically chemical makeup of the surrounding environment.

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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Fri May 20, 2022 1:47 pm

American Legionaries wrote:
Islamic Essarn wrote:I have a question for all the pro lifers around here : how do you know that the fetus or the embryo or the zygote is alive.


Well we can observe signs of life, they are made up of living cells which replicate and metabolize nutrients.


So is a tumour but we don't see the Pro-Life brigade demanding an end to all cancer treatment.
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Postby Hamidiye » Fri May 20, 2022 1:49 pm

Islamic Essarn wrote:Also do you think that people who do not have the parts necessary to have children get to have an opinion on abortion


I don't think the minute minority without genitalia would make a measureable difference. :roll:
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Postby American Legionaries » Fri May 20, 2022 1:49 pm

Vassenor wrote:
American Legionaries wrote:
Well we can observe signs of life, they are made up of living cells which replicate and metabolize nutrients.


So is a tumour but we don't see the Pro-Life brigade demanding an end to all cancer treatment.


I don't advocate for a ban on gardening either, did you have a point?

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Postby Vassenor » Fri May 20, 2022 1:58 pm

Hamidiye wrote:
Islamic Essarn wrote:Also do you think that people who do not have the parts necessary to have children get to have an opinion on abortion


I don't think the minute minority without genitalia would make a measureable difference. :roll:


So why should men get to dictate what those capable of carrying children can do with their bodies?
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Hamidiye
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Postby Hamidiye » Fri May 20, 2022 2:01 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Hamidiye wrote:
I don't think the minute minority without genitalia would make a measureable difference. :roll:


So why should men get to dictate what those capable of carrying children can do with their bodies?


I didn't infer any right to dictate...but coming to think of it a formal recommendation to abort should be a valid reason not to be liable to pay child-support. :D
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Postby Equai » Fri May 20, 2022 2:11 pm

Abortion is a fundamental human right.
Fetus, by pure scientific observation is a parasite.
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Postby Old Hope » Fri May 20, 2022 2:31 pm

Equai wrote:Abortion is a fundamental human right.
Fetus, by pure scientific observation is a parasite.

That is actually not true!
There is a difference between a fetus and a parasite.
A fetus increases your reproductive fitness.
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Hamidiye
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Postby Hamidiye » Fri May 20, 2022 2:34 pm

Old Hope wrote:
Equai wrote:Abortion is a fundamental human right.
Fetus, by pure scientific observation is a parasite.

That is actually not true!
There is a difference between a fetus and a parasite.
A fetus increases your reproductive fitness.


...and a tapeworm helps you loose weight. :D
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