[Abortion Thread] (POLL 4) A compromising position...

[Vassenor]

Reminder that in the US at least Religion has no right to be influencing laws.

Is murder not against the law?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…

[The Free Republican Union]

Is murder not against the law?

Is self-defense murder?

Yes, it's murder, if that's how you want to describe it. But it's justified murder. Abortion, unless the life of a mother is threatened, is murder that is not justified.

[The Free Republican Union]

Is murder not against the law?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…

Murder is illegal, regardless of religion, no?

[Jewish Underground State]

How do we even know if souls exist?

We don't. But I believe in one.

I believe in souls too but I must say others don't. If the people who don't can't get an abortion because of something they don't believe in is kinda BS. It's like getting circumcised as a buddhist.

[Spirit of Hope]

Is self-defense murder?

Yes, it's murder, if that's how you want to describe it. But it's justified murder. Abortion, unless the life of a mother is threatened, is murder that is not justified.

The life of the mothers is always threatened in pregnancy. The degree to which the life is under threat may very but even perfectly health women with normal pregnancies can die during child birth.

This also ignores the fetus using the mothers body, which if the mother doesn't consent to it is a perfectly reasonable grounds for an abortion.

[Islamic Essarn]

Is self-defense murder?

Yes, it's murder, if that's how you want to describe it. But it's justified murder. Abortion, unless the life of a mother is threatened, is murder that is not justified.

Your aloud to kill someone if they come into your house without you permission whether they are a threat or not also not abortion happens after the foetus is even slightly conscious (also, you eat meats, right, you do know that animals are conscious)

[Jewish Underground State]

Is murder not against the law?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…

Sure man....sure......

So we shouldn't have freedom of religion?

That's the rabbit hole were going down now?

[The Free Republican Union]

We don't. But I believe in one.

I believe in souls too but I must say others don't. If the people who don't can't get an abortion because of something they don't believe in is kinda BS. It's like getting circumcised as a buddhist.

I guess. Frankly, if your going of the soul argument, all of this comes down to weather your religious or not. If we were in the 80s, most of the country would have agreed with the soul argument. Today, not so much.

[Vassenor]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…

Murder is illegal, regardless of religion, no?

And your arguments are based on souls. Ergo trying to force religion into the law.

[The Free Republican Union]

Yes, it's murder, if that's how you want to describe it. But it's justified murder. Abortion, unless the life of a mother is threatened, is murder that is not justified.

The life of the mothers is always threatened in pregnancy. The degree to which the life is under threat may very but even perfectly health women with normal pregnancies can die during child birth.

This also ignores the fetus using the mothers body, which if the mother doesn't consent to it is a perfectly reasonable grounds for an abortion.

Your first argument doesn't make sense. Anything we do has risk, but the risk is often to such a small degree, especially with pregnancy and today's medicine, that that argument holds no water.

So you don't want to have kids? Use protection!

[Necroghastia]

No it doesn't. That is just factually incorrect.

Point to me the delineation between a zygote or fetus and its carrier.

A ventilator is not alive. False equivalency.

DO you honestly think that that is why people have abortions? For the hell of it?

nah

Each person is inherently good? Even John Wayne Gacy? Ed Gein?

How?

Many people lack the means to raise a child.

kinda sadistic of him tbqh

To your first point: It develops with help from the parent--it needs the parent for most of its life--but you don't kill a baby cause it happens to need you.

So it doesn't develop on its own.

You wouldn't kill your grandpa by not giving him required meds, would you?

Irrelevant. Such medications would not be extracted from my own body nor is my grandparent inside of me.

I'm skipping your second point.

Why? Can't come up with an answer? Realize that's a bad look?

To your third point: I'm not saying a ventilator is alive. I'm just saying the ventilator helps that which relies on it--you're missing the point.

Pot, meet kettle.

To your fourth: I didn't say that or try to communicate that at all. But since you brought that up, sometimes, they do.

I'm sure you can prove that. Positive that you can. Totally.

To your sixth: Yes. Those people were born without sin. They decided to do what they did. You could have been good people, but we have free will.

Not an answer to the question.

To your seventh: If you can have a baby that is heathy without endangering yourself, why would you not want to experience the greatest gift of all?

Why would you not want "the greatest gift of all" to have the best life you can give it?

To your eighth: There are ways to get around that like adoption. (Which should be promoted more btw)

Not a solution to having to give birth in the first place. Having to deal with the health issues and changes, not to mention the simple cost of the hospital.

[Vassenor]

The life of the mothers is always threatened in pregnancy. The degree to which the life is under threat may very but even perfectly health women with normal pregnancies can die during child birth.

This also ignores the fetus using the mothers body, which if the mother doesn't consent to it is a perfectly reasonable grounds for an abortion.

Your first argument doesn't make sense. Anything we do has risk, but the risk is often to such a small degree, especially with pregnancy and today's medicine, that that argument holds no water.

So you don't want to have kids? Use protection!

Contraceptives fail. What then?

[Necroghastia]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…

Sure man....sure......

So we shouldn't have freedom of religion?

That's the rabbit hole were going down now?

...What? How the hell did you get that?

[The Free Republican Union]

Murder is illegal, regardless of religion, no?

And your arguments are based on souls. Ergo trying to force religion into the law.

At this point, I give up. We're going around in circles and not solving anything. I offer one last argument: If you don't want kids, use protection or don't have sex. Problem solved.

[The Free Republican Union]

Your first argument doesn't make sense. Anything we do has risk, but the risk is often to such a small degree, especially with pregnancy and today's medicine, that that argument holds no water.

So you don't want to have kids? Use protection!

Contraceptives fail. What then?

Become a priest, commit to chastity, and don't have sex.

[Vassenor]

And your arguments are based on souls. Ergo trying to force religion into the law.

At this point, I give up. We're going around in circles and not solving anything. I offer one last argument: If you don't want kids, use protection or don't have sex. Problem solved.

Contraceptives can fail. What then?

[Islamic Essarn]

The life of the mothers is always threatened in pregnancy. The degree to which the life is under threat may very but even perfectly health women with normal pregnancies can die during child birth.

This also ignores the fetus using the mothers body, which if the mother doesn't consent to it is a perfectly reasonable grounds for an abortion.

Your first argument doesn't make sense. Anything we do has risk, but the risk is often to such a small degree, especially with pregnancy and today's medicine, that that argument holds no water.

So you don't want to have kids? Use protection!

First of all the arguments made in scotus could be used to overturn the right to contraception, second of all contraception can fail, third of all many ablutions happen because of r*pe when women can not pick to were condomns.

[Spirit of Hope]

The life of the mothers is always threatened in pregnancy. The degree to which the life is under threat may very but even perfectly health women with normal pregnancies can die during child birth.

This also ignores the fetus using the mothers body, which if the mother doesn't consent to it is a perfectly reasonable grounds for an abortion.

Your first argument doesn't make sense. Anything we do has risk, but the risk is often to such a small degree, especially with pregnancy and today's medicine, that that argument holds no water.

So you don't want to have kids? Use protection!

Your response makes no sense. Why should someone be forced to go through risks that they don't want to go through? The risks with of death during pregnancy is about 1 in 4,000 in the US, but that is the average. It gets much worse for women on the low end of the socio economic ladder. There is also the risk of major bodily harm, fun fact about 1 in 4 pregnancies in the US involves major abdominal surgery. Please name another activity that people are forced to go through that has those odds.

Protection fails, especially when you stigmatize it and don't teach about how to effectively use it. Want to know the best way to reduce the abortion rate in the US? Teach better sex education. Its proven to have a bigger impact than laws to restrict abortions.

[Necroghastia]

Contraceptives fail. What then?

Become a priest, commit to chastity, and don't have sex.

...How is that a solution to when contraceptives fail? Also I'd rather not be one of those priests that doesn't believe in what they preach and is just pulling a grift or something.

[The Free Republican Union]

Sure man....sure......

So we shouldn't have freedom of religion?

That's the rabbit hole were going down now?

...What? How the hell did you get that?

He got it pretty simply. The government enforces our right to religion: it's governmental law. So that should be repleaded according to your ideology.

[The Free Republican Union]

Become a priest, commit to chastity, and don't have sex.

...How is that a solution to when contraceptives fail?

Not having sex prevents pregnancy.

[The Free Republican Union]

Your first argument doesn't make sense. Anything we do has risk, but the risk is often to such a small degree, especially with pregnancy and today's medicine, that that argument holds no water.

So you don't want to have kids? Use protection!

Your response makes no sense. Why should someone be forced to go through risks that they don't want to go through? The risks with of death during pregnancy is about 1 in 4,000 in the US, but that is the average. It gets much worse for women on the low end of the socio economic ladder. There is also the risk of major bodily harm, fun fact about 1 in 4 pregnancies in the US involves major abdominal surgery. Please name another activity that people are forced to go through that has those odds.

Protection fails, especially when you stigmatize it and don't teach about how to effectively use it. Want to know the best way to reduce the abortion rate in the US? Teach better sex education. Its proven to have a bigger impact than laws to restrict abortions.

I agree. We need more education. But, if your really don't want to get pregnant, don't have sex.

[Vassenor]

...How is that a solution to when contraceptives fail?

Not having sex prevents pregnancy.

Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.

[Necroghastia]

...What? How the hell did you get that?

He got it pretty simply. The government enforces our right to religion: it's governmental law. So that should be repleaded according to your ideology.

That no religion should have its values enshrined into law means people can't have religious freedom? What? That makes no sense. That is the very basis of religious freedom.

[Islamic Essarn]

Contraceptives fail. What then?

Become a priest, commit to chastity, and don't have sex.

This gets to the heart of the anti abortion movement : they want to control the sex lives of people who can get pregnant (also, can we all just start using more gender inclusive language since not all women and not just women can get pregnant)