[Abortion Thread] (POLL 4) A compromising position...

[American Legionaries]

Are we gonna hold solemn funerals for dead skin cells in the future?

I mean, I can't stop you from mourning your skin cells, but funerals for each and every one may get a little pricey.

[Equai]

Bunch of cells that aren't even alive until like 5-6-7th month of pregnancy and who can't survive on its own are not people. They are just bunch of cells.

We clearly hold different opinions on what constitutes personhood.

What do you think personhood is then? Bunch of cells created under the effect of two reproductive cells combining doesn't mean anything. Personhood is something you get when you get brought into the world and you physically touch it for the first time and it won't be until year 2.5 to 3 that you actually will have conscious of what person is because only then your brain will start
"recording the world" but its not until like 5 years old when you actually have a full consciousness of being in the world around you properly

[Spirit of Hope]

How do you define personhood? Given that a fetus doesn't have neural activity capable of supporting itself until about the 20 week mark I find it hard to call it a person before that point.

I would define a person as an organism of the human species.

That isn't much of an answer. How do you define human species and organism? For example cell cultures in a laboratory are an organisms and have human DNA, does that make them a person?

[Godular]

How do you define personhood? Given that a fetus doesn't have neural activity capable of supporting itself until about the 20 week mark I find it hard to call it a person before that point.

I would define a person as an organism of the human species.

Welp, Cancer is a person. News at 11.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

I would define a person as an organism of the human species.

Welp, Cancer is a person. News at 11.

https://i.imgflip.com/6gy1lu.jpg

[Equai]

How do you define personhood? Given that a fetus doesn't have neural activity capable of supporting itself until about the 20 week mark I find it hard to call it a person before that point.

I would define a person as an organism of the human species.

Very weak answer considering that in the basic 5th grade biology you are an organism if you can live individually separated from dependencies of your host's nutrients, which is why virus is not a real organism but a weird abomination between alive and dead and why fetus cannot be considered a full organism because it still depends on the person's nutrients in order to grow to be an alive being at the very late stage of pregnancy so it can survive outside the person's body. Of course this is very big oversimplification that eaves a lot of details. Also in order for something to be considered organism it needs to check 5 characteristics of life, which a group of cells called fetus cannot check because its not an organism by the scientific field

[American Legionaries]

I would define a person as an organism of the human species.

That isn't much of an answer. How do you define human species and organism? For example cell cultures in a laboratory are an organisms and have human DNA, does that make them a person?

Human species would be members of the taxonomic genus Homo of which all extant members are of the species Homo Sapiens.

An organism is any distinct life form.

If the cell culture's in the laboratory meet the threshold of being an organism, then yes.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Are we gonna hold solemn funerals for dead skin cells in the future?

I mean, I can't stop you from mourning your skin cells, but funerals for each and every one may get a little pricey.

I'm not the one that believes that every fetal cell is instantly a human person from the moment of it coming into being.
Moreover, if every human cell have the potential of becoming embryonic cells, and all embryonic cells are persons, then anything we do, even scratching ourselves becomes a case of mass homicide.

[Necroghastia]

That isn't much of an answer. How do you define human species and organism? For example cell cultures in a laboratory are an organisms and have human DNA, does that make them a person?

Human species would be members of the taxonomic genus Homo of which all extant members are of the species Homo Sapiens.

An organism is any distinct life form.

If the cell culture's in the laboratory meet the threshold of being an organism, then yes.

A zygote is not distinct.

[American Legionaries]

I would define a person as an organism of the human species.

Very weak answer considering that in the basic 5th grade biology you are an organism if you can live individually separated from dependencies of your host's nutrients, which is why virus is not a real organism but a weird abomination between alive and dead and why fetus cannot be considered a full organism because it still depends on the person's nutrients in order to grow to be an alive being at the very late stage of pregnancy so it can survive outside the person's body. Of course this is very big oversimplification that eaves a lot of details. Also in order for something to be considered organism it needs to check 5 characteristics of life, which a group of cells called fetus cannot check because its not an organism by the scientific field

Today I learned parasitic organisms aren't actually real.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Very weak answer considering that in the basic 5th grade biology you are an organism if you can live individually separated from dependencies of your host's nutrients, which is why virus is not a real organism but a weird abomination between alive and dead and why fetus cannot be considered a full organism because it still depends on the person's nutrients in order to grow to be an alive being at the very late stage of pregnancy so it can survive outside the person's body. Of course this is very big oversimplification that eaves a lot of details. Also in order for something to be considered organism it needs to check 5 characteristics of life, which a group of cells called fetus cannot check because its not an organism by the scientific field

Today I learned parasitic organisms aren't actually real.

They aren't persons. And this is a point we should not actually have to argue.

[The Caleshan Valkyrie]

Very weak answer considering that in the basic 5th grade biology you are an organism if you can live individually separated from dependencies of your host's nutrients, which is why virus is not a real organism but a weird abomination between alive and dead and why fetus cannot be considered a full organism because it still depends on the person's nutrients in order to grow to be an alive being at the very late stage of pregnancy so it can survive outside the person's body. Of course this is very big oversimplification that eaves a lot of details. Also in order for something to be considered organism it needs to check 5 characteristics of life, which a group of cells called fetus cannot check because its not an organism by the scientific field

Today I learned parasitic organisms aren't actually real.

How does that actually relate to what was said? Are you saying viruses are alive?

[American Legionaries]

Today I learned parasitic organisms aren't actually real.

They aren't persons. And this is a point we should not actually have to argue.

We don't have to argue it, and yet here we are.

[American Legionaries]

Today I learned parasitic organisms aren't actually real.

How does that actually relate to what was said? Are you saying viruses are alive?

you are an organism if you can live individually separated from dependencies of your host's nutrients

This particular statement would disqualify parasitic organisms

[Spirit of Hope]

That isn't much of an answer. How do you define human species and organism? For example cell cultures in a laboratory are an organisms and have human DNA, does that make them a person?

Human species would be members of the taxonomic genus Homo of which all extant members are of the species Homo Sapiens.

An organism is any distinct life form.

If the cell culture's in the laboratory meet the threshold of being an organism, then yes.

I feel sperm would meet your definition of people., cell cultures certainly do. So is stem cell research murder?

[The Caleshan Valkyrie]

How does that actually relate to what was said? Are you saying viruses are alive?

you are an organism if you can live individually separated from dependencies of your host's nutrients

This particular statement would disqualify parasitic organisms

Not really. There are many types of ‘parasitic organism’. Mosquitoes are parasitic, for instance.

Your definitions seem remarkably skewed.

[Equai]

They aren't persons. And this is a point we should not actually have to argue.

We don't have to argue it, and yet here we are.

No one is argue? You are trying to present my perfectly normal, scientifically thought argument as something weak because you mentioning a parasite, which never changes, evolves or becomes anything complex as a legally comparable thing to what an actually functioning human organism is. As much as I compare early stage of fetuses to parasites the fact is that fetus will eventually evolve into complex structured human who can survive independently. If you pull out a parasite from a patient it dies, making it unable to survive on its own and therefore making it illegible to be a complex structural organism. Its not mine or people above's fault that your definition of a person is so oversimplified to the point that people are making fun of you by saying that you officially declared cancer as a person.

Some things cannot be summarized in one sentence and one of those things is "what person is". If things were so simple we would've already be immortal

[American Legionaries]

Human species would be members of the taxonomic genus Homo of which all extant members are of the species Homo Sapiens.

An organism is any distinct life form.

If the cell culture's in the laboratory meet the threshold of being an organism, then yes.

I feel sperm would meet your definition of people., cell cultures certainly do. So is stem cell research murder?

Sperm certainly doesn't as a sperm cell is not an organism. Cell cultures may or may not meet the definition, but they're too broad a category to classify wholesale. Depending on technique stem cell research could well result in a murder if the mechanism kills a human organism.

[Equai]

How does that actually relate to what was said? Are you saying viruses are alive?

you are an organism if you can live individually separated from dependencies of your host's nutrients

This particular statement would disqualify parasitic organisms

It wouldn't because as person above me said, mosquitos can be classified as parasitic and while they feed off humans and animals nutrients thought sucking their blood they still can survive on its own. Plus mosquitos, as well, have complex organic structure which is a key thing to define what an actually person, human in this case is. Until a very late stage pregnancy a fetus cannot be considered a complex structured, even less a person because as I said above you have no consciousness of a personhood until at least 2sn year of life

[American Legionaries]

This particular statement would disqualify parasitic organisms

It wouldn't because as person above me said, mosquitos can be classified as parasitic and while they feed off humans and animals nutrients thought sucking their blood they still can survive on its own. Plus mosquitos, as well, have complex organic structure which is a key thing to define what an actually person, human in this case is. Until a very late stage pregnancy a fetus cannot be considered a complex structured, even less a person because as I said above you have no consciousness of a personhood until at least 2sn year of life

I don't believe that complex structures and consciousness are required traits of personhood.

[Spirit of Hope]

I feel sperm would meet your definition of people., cell cultures certainly do. So is stem cell research murder?

Sperm certainly doesn't as a sperm cell is not an organism. Cell cultures may or may not meet the definition, but they're too broad a category to classify wholesale. Depending on technique stem cell research could well result in a murder if the mechanism kills a human organism.

A sperm cell can be argued to be an organism, especially using your definition, though not a very complicated one to be sure.

Since your definition appears to include things like cell cultures for research, cancer, and sperm cells I think it is far to broad for use. Feel free to push for murder trials for researchers using stem cells, but I find it unlikely you actually hold that position.

[The Caleshan Valkyrie]

It wouldn't because as person above me said, mosquitos can be classified as parasitic and while they feed off humans and animals nutrients thought sucking their blood they still can survive on its own. Plus mosquitos, as well, have complex organic structure which is a key thing to define what an actually person, human in this case is. Until a very late stage pregnancy a fetus cannot be considered a complex structured, even less a person because as I said above you have no consciousness of a personhood until at least 2sn year of life

I don't believe that complex structures and consciousness are required traits of personhood.

Cancer is Person. All this and more, on the next 60 Minutes.

[American Legionaries]

Sperm certainly doesn't as a sperm cell is not an organism. Cell cultures may or may not meet the definition, but they're too broad a category to classify wholesale. Depending on technique stem cell research could well result in a murder if the mechanism kills a human organism.

A sperm cell can be argued to be an organism, especially using your definition, though not a very complicated one to be sure.

Since your definition appears to include things like cell cultures for research, cancer, and sperm cells I think it is far to broad for use. Feel free to push for murder trials for researchers using stem cells, but I find it unlikely you actually hold that position.

Lots of things can be argued.

Well as I said, that would depend on the culture. A culture could constitute an organism, but wouldn't necessarily. As for what I push politically, luckily neither your belief, nor your permission are required for me to act upon my personal politics.

[Equai]

A sperm cell can be argued to be an organism, especially using your definition, though not a very complicated one to be sure.

Since your definition appears to include things like cell cultures for research, cancer, and sperm cells I think it is far to broad for use. Feel free to push for murder trials for researchers using stem cells, but I find it unlikely you actually hold that position.

Lots of things can be argued.

Well as I said, that would depend on the culture. A culture could constitute an organism, but wouldn't necessarily. As for what I push politically, luckily neither your belief, nor your permission are required for me to act upon my personal politics.

Just the way you said it, it all reminds me on how slave owners had the same mentality as you when they made Confederate States of America. Not an attack or anything, just an interesting similarity in the behavior and attitude.

[American Legionaries]

Lots of things can be argued.

Well as I said, that would depend on the culture. A culture could constitute an organism, but wouldn't necessarily. As for what I push politically, luckily neither your belief, nor your permission are required for me to act upon my personal politics.

Just the way you said it, it all reminds me on how slave owners had the same mentality as you when they made Confederate States of America. Not an attack or anything, just an interesting similarity in the behavior and attitude.

Indeed, and Hitler drank water...