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[Abortion Thread] (POLL 4) A compromising position...

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What would you consider to be the best 'compromise'?

Reduce abortions with welfare supports / other non-invasive measures, leave access untouched.
108
33%
Set conditions under which abortions can be accessed.
70
21%
Allow free access, under a given time limit.
30
9%
Allow free access, but give men an option to excuse themselves from child support.
35
11%
HELL WITH COMPROMISE, IT'S MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY!
64
20%
Look out! They're here! Pink Elephants on Parade! Here they come, hippity hoppity!
20
6%
 
Total votes : 327

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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:51 pm

Sundiata wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
And how do you get a constutional amentment through when the GOP is doing everything it can to get Abortion banned regardless of what voters want?

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:You need 2/3rds of the states and the congress to pass an amendment. Which is physically impossible in the current political atmosphere.

Spirit of Hope wrote:
Have fun getting an abortion ammendment passed. You would need a 2/3rds vote in the senate or a by a call of 2/3rds of the state legislators. Pro abortion has never had 2/3rds of the senate or 2/3rds of the state legislators.


It looks like the work of the pro-life movement is done: curtain call.

Yes we know you really like women being killed.
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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:06 pm

Sundiata wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
And how do you get a constutional amentment through when the GOP is doing everything it can to get Abortion banned regardless of what voters want?

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:You need 2/3rds of the states and the congress to pass an amendment. Which is physically impossible in the current political atmosphere.

Spirit of Hope wrote:
Have fun getting an abortion ammendment passed. You would need a 2/3rds vote in the senate or a by a call of 2/3rds of the state legislators. Pro abortion has never had 2/3rds of the senate or 2/3rds of the state legislators.


It looks like the work of the pro-life movement is done: curtain call.

Why do you hate women?
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:07 pm

New haven america wrote:
Sundiata wrote:


It looks like the work of the pro-life movement is done: curtain call.

Why do you hate women?

No no he thinks that all life is worth preserving, as he pushes them off a cliff.
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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:07 pm

Libertarians wrote:Does anyone else read articles like this from yesterday and wonder why these people seem to avoid very easy solutions to the problem in front of them?

The left has been in an absolute panic for three years now since Kavanaugh was appointed that Roe would be overturned as the constitution does not really address everything that went into the Roe decision, so the decision has been at risk of being overturned from the outset due to it being somewhat of a stretch to start with. What if that panic and effort had been funneled into an abortion amendment effort to just permit the right to an abortion and say life begins at birth in a new amendment to the Constitution? That solves the problem and provides a solid foundation for Roe. State by state polling showed in the past slightly more than 12 states likely have voters that favor abortion, but it is very close. Why not try?

1. There's a real dishonesty to the Democrat position in that it has been foreseeable honestly since the 2016 election, but certainly since 2018 that we were headed in a direction that was not good for Roe's chances to stand, and exactly zero effort was put in to reversing that or providing support for a right to the abortion in the text of the constitution. At least, IMO. I think if the party were being honest, it strongly hopes Roe is overturned because power is far more important to the Democrats than whatever they've said they believe in. 2. The two party system, man. :(

1. You need a 2/3's yes vote to pass an amendment. Where would they get those numbers?
2. American Libertarianism and Republicanism are basically the same thing, so... (Actually, most American libertarians are against abortion, believing that it's taking the choice of life away from a potential individual)
Last edited by New haven america on Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:10 pm

Genivaria wrote:
New haven america wrote:Why do you hate women?

No no he thinks that all life is worth preserving, as he pushes them off a cliff.

And women are beautiful creations of God that we must forcibly and traumatically sterilize if they have a health issue.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:56 pm

Apocalyptic Haven wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Distract them by hanging up a big "Happy Holidays" sign somewhere?


The White House. Go big or go home.

Smart. Have Biden and Harris pose with it.
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Katganistan
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Postby Katganistan » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:40 pm

The Free Joy State wrote:
Esternial wrote:Whether courage is involved or not is entirely circumstantial.

A woman being pressured to have an abortion and choosing to keep the baby is courageous.
A woman being pressured to keep the baby and choosing to have an abortion because valid reasons is courageous.

True.

Forced abortion is as much a bodily invasion as forced pregnancy.

Indeed.

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Imperial Old Mexico
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Postby Imperial Old Mexico » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:41 pm

Katganistan wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:True.

Forced abortion is as much a bodily invasion as forced pregnancy.

Indeed.


Coughs President Xi...cough...
I, for one, welcome our future Mexican drug overlords.
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Katganistan
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Postby Katganistan » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:45 pm

Imperial Old Mexico wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
Indeed, unless there are specific reasons why America is different in this regard from other countries, we can assume that similar policies will have similar effects.

And last I checked, American women are not different from women in the rest of the world.

But I am welcome to do more research on that topic.


How many states will ban abortion? It’s unlikely to be a federal ban, so what is to stop West Virginia women from crossing into Virginia or Maryland to get abortions. Wham, suddenly your ban is ineffective for the same reason as state bans on assault weapons.

Not everyone has the cash to travel, take a hotel room, have the surgery, and travel back.

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Imperial Old Mexico
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Postby Imperial Old Mexico » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:47 pm

Katganistan wrote:
Imperial Old Mexico wrote:
How many states will ban abortion? It’s unlikely to be a federal ban, so what is to stop West Virginia women from crossing into Virginia or Maryland to get abortions. Wham, suddenly your ban is ineffective for the same reason as state bans on assault weapons.

Not everyone has the cash to travel, take a hotel room, have the surgery, and travel back.


Sadly true.
I, for one, welcome our future Mexican drug overlords.
Imperial Old Mexico is a post apocalyptic narco monarchist state created by drug cartels.
Pro-Emelyan Pugachev
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:50 pm

Imperial Old Mexico wrote:
Katganistan wrote:Indeed.


Coughs President Xi...cough...


The one child policy was before him. Even then they did adjust if after the rural types complain about having a girl…..
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Maricarland
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Postby Maricarland » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:54 pm

Realistically, if the Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade or hollow it out so it is functionally meaningless, the only way to secure the right to an abortion for the overwhelming majority of people with uteruses in the U.S. would be a federal law guaranteeing women the right to an abortion, and that will not pass a Republican controlled chamber of Congress, and it may not even pass a Democrat controlled chamber of Congress because I am sure we have some anti-abortion Democrats and there may just be enough to block a federal law making abortion a right.

Several international organizations say the U.S. is currently a backsliding democracy (there have been a lot of them emerging over the last few years), and that several of our rights are also backsliding (instead of expanding). I believe that we are backsliding on abortion rights as well and that it does not look good for abortion rights in the near term.
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Katganistan
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Postby Katganistan » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:54 pm

Imperial Old Mexico wrote:
Spirit of Hope wrote:
Right, cause its so easy to travel out of say, Texas, to another state that does allow abortions, spend the couple of days required, and then travel back. Don't forget this entire time your missing work so you aren't getting paid and your job may just decode to fire you since you aren't around.

I mean sure the rich and middle class can do that, but not anyone in the lower income. Which also happens to be the group that is least able to afford hospital care for a birth. So its again punishing the poor for being poor.

Plus of course that an abortion ban is easy to get around isn't a good argument to alow one in the first place.


Obviously it will stop the poor. My point is that it won’t stop everyone. Not even the lower middle class if they’re a short drive away. My point is that it doesn’t do what its proponents claim, namely save every unborn child.

Who do you think are hurt wort by abortion bans?
The poor, who are then faced with how to afford raising them, and vilified for accepting public assistance.

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Katganistan
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Postby Katganistan » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:56 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Ifreann wrote:There's nothing that can stop them if all you're thinking about is whether there'll be armed guards at the state border. There are lots of things that can stop them if you actually think practically about what's involved in travelling to another state for a medical procedure.


Im not saying it wouldn't be difficult for many but there is nothing a state can legally do to prevent a woman from crossing borders to get an abortion.

Well, except for the Texas law that goes after the people transporting her over the border....

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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:57 pm

Katganistan wrote:
Imperial Old Mexico wrote:
How many states will ban abortion? It’s unlikely to be a federal ban, so what is to stop West Virginia women from crossing into Virginia or Maryland to get abortions. Wham, suddenly your ban is ineffective for the same reason as state bans on assault weapons.

Not everyone has the cash to travel, take a hotel room, have the surgery, and travel back.


Especially the people who want an abortion because they cannot afford taking care of a child.
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Katganistan
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Postby Katganistan » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:59 pm

New haven america wrote:
Sundiata wrote:


It looks like the work of the pro-life movement is done: curtain call.

Why do you hate women?

Evil.

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Imperial Old Mexico
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Postby Imperial Old Mexico » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:59 pm

Katganistan wrote:
Imperial Old Mexico wrote:
Obviously it will stop the poor. My point is that it won’t stop everyone. Not even the lower middle class if they’re a short drive away. My point is that it doesn’t do what its proponents claim, namely save every unborn child.

Who do you think are hurt wort by abortion bans?
The poor, who are then faced with how to afford raising them, and vilified for accepting public assistance.


Sadly also true. What a depressing society we have!
I, for one, welcome our future Mexican drug overlords.
Imperial Old Mexico is a post apocalyptic narco monarchist state created by drug cartels.
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Imperial Old Mexico
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Postby Imperial Old Mexico » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:00 pm

The Alma Mater wrote:
Katganistan wrote:Not everyone has the cash to travel, take a hotel room, have the surgery, and travel back.


Especially the people who want an abortion because they cannot afford taking care of a child.


Again sadly true.
I, for one, welcome our future Mexican drug overlords.
Imperial Old Mexico is a post apocalyptic narco monarchist state created by drug cartels.
Pro-Emelyan Pugachev
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Katganistan
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Postby Katganistan » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:00 pm

Imperial Old Mexico wrote:
Katganistan wrote:Indeed.


Coughs President Xi...cough...

What does that have to do with anything?

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Thepeopl
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Postby Thepeopl » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:10 pm

Katganistan wrote:
Imperial Old Mexico wrote:
Obviously it will stop the poor. My point is that it won’t stop everyone. Not even the lower middle class if they’re a short drive away. My point is that it doesn’t do what its proponents claim, namely save every unborn child.

Who do you think are hurt wort by abortion bans?
The poor, who are then faced with how to afford raising them, and vilified for accepting public assistance.

They can always resort to the diy abortions that quite possibly will kill them. Or render them infertile.
I think the abortion ban is less anti women and more anti poor.

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Maricarland
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Postby Maricarland » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:14 pm

Thepeopl wrote:
Katganistan wrote:Who do you think are hurt wort by abortion bans?
The poor, who are then faced with how to afford raising them, and vilified for accepting public assistance.

They can always resort to the diy abortions that quite possibly will kill them. Or render them infertile.
I think the abortion ban is less anti women and more anti poor.


It's anti-poor and anti people with uteruses (not everyone with a uterus and able to become pregnant is a woman).
Last edited by Maricarland on Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:15 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:Sterilising the man is far more efficient. Easier and a man can theoretically impregnate hundreds of women per.year, while women have a limited number of possible pregnancies.


Yeah, theory is nice. But in practice, how many women have you impregnated in the last year?

Me? I don't think I've even reached 1.

And I'd be surprised if you have it in the double digits, let alone hundreds.


Oh zero - cause I did in fact get a vasectomy. Otherwise "dozens" would have been a possibility while I want zero.
Though admittedly I am old enough to have doubts my little corkscrews would still be able to swim .
Last edited by The Alma Mater on Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease.
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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:19 am

Ifreann wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
And how do you get a constutional amentment through when the GOP is doing everything it can to get Abortion banned regardless of what voters want?

Distract them by hanging up a big "Happy Holidays" sign somewhere?


Whenever someone complains about "the war on christmas", just tell them "all holidays matter".
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease.
It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.
- Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

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The Free Joy State
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Postby The Free Joy State » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:56 am

Thepeopl wrote:
Katganistan wrote:Who do you think are hurt wort by abortion bans?
The poor, who are then faced with how to afford raising them, and vilified for accepting public assistance.

They can always resort to the diy abortions that quite possibly will kill them. Or render them infertile.
I think the abortion ban is less anti women and more anti poor.

Abortion bans are both.

Anti-woman because many proponents tend to argue (whether they intend to, or not) along the lines of the the "Madonna-whore dichotomy": woman as sweet and maternal figure -- a pure and delicate creation of the Lord who came into the world to birth future generations -- who would not want abortions, or abortion-seeking sluts.

Anti-poor, because the truth is (of course), that there is no such dichotomy. Women -- rich or poor, married or not, mother or not, of all ages and ethnicities, of any faith or none -- may require and seek an abortion at some point. With an abortion ban, they still will. And the rich will still be able to travel to anywhere it is still legal and get one. Only the poor will be forced to the back alleys, to backstreet abortionists, back to the days of bloodied improvised instruments and women haemorrhaging at home because some other person's morals dictated the death of mother and foetus was better than safe abortion.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:16 am

Katganistan wrote:
Imperial Old Mexico wrote:
How many states will ban abortion? It’s unlikely to be a federal ban, so what is to stop West Virginia women from crossing into Virginia or Maryland to get abortions. Wham, suddenly your ban is ineffective for the same reason as state bans on assault weapons.

Not everyone has the cash to travel, take a hotel room, have the surgery, and travel back.


Given that I live near Poland, I've offered (but the offer has not been taken so far, though to be fair, I've only posted it as comments when one of my Polish female friends gets political on facebook), my place for women that need an abortion. Granted, they'd still have to do the rest of the hassle (coming here, making an appointment with the right medical professional, etc), but I see it as "every little bit helps".
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