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[Abortion Thread] (POLL 4) A compromising position...

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What would you consider to be the best 'compromise'?

Reduce abortions with welfare supports / other non-invasive measures, leave access untouched.
108
33%
Set conditions under which abortions can be accessed.
70
21%
Allow free access, under a given time limit.
30
9%
Allow free access, but give men an option to excuse themselves from child support.
35
11%
HELL WITH COMPROMISE, IT'S MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY!
64
20%
Look out! They're here! Pink Elephants on Parade! Here they come, hippity hoppity!
20
6%
 
Total votes : 327

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Dogmeat
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Postby Dogmeat » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:01 am

American Legionaries wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:Nope. It doesn't. And I have stats for that.

According to The Lancet, in the 2015-2019 figures, where they are broadly legal (excluding China and India) and completely prohibited the figures are identical: 40 abortions per 1000 women.

In fact, between their last figures, the rate of abortions fell where broadly legal by 43% and rose where prohibited by 11%.


None of this indicates a U.S. prohibition would be ineffective. Only that foreign prohibitions are ineffective.

There is no reason to believe that it would be more effective in the US. And very good reasons to think that it would not. This is no better than when communists insist, "no really guys... this time it'll work. Trust me!"
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:08 am

American Legionaries wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:Nope. It doesn't. And I have stats for that.

According to The Lancet, in the 2015-2019 figures, where they are broadly legal (excluding China and India) and completely prohibited the figures are identical: 40 abortions per 1000 women.

In fact, between their last figures, the rate of abortions fell where broadly legal by 43% and rose where prohibited by 11%.


None of this indicates a U.S. prohibition would be ineffective. Only that foreign prohibitions are ineffective.

It's a well accepted technique, looking at data from other countries to get an idea of how well or how badly a similar policy would pan out if implemented, so your rejection of it is totally invalid and devoid of merit.
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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:17 am

The New California Republic wrote:
American Legionaries wrote:
None of this indicates a U.S. prohibition would be ineffective. Only that foreign prohibitions are ineffective.

It's a well accepted technique, looking at data from other countries to get an idea of how well or how badly a similar policy would pan out if implemented, so your rejection of it is totally invalid and devoid of merit.


Indeed, unless there are specific reasons why America is different in this regard from other countries, we can assume that similar policies will have similar effects.

And last I checked, American women are not different from women in the rest of the world.

But I am welcome to do more research on that topic.
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Postby Imperial Old Mexico » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:48 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:It's a well accepted technique, looking at data from other countries to get an idea of how well or how badly a similar policy would pan out if implemented, so your rejection of it is totally invalid and devoid of merit.


Indeed, unless there are specific reasons why America is different in this regard from other countries, we can assume that similar policies will have similar effects.

And last I checked, American women are not different from women in the rest of the world.

But I am welcome to do more research on that topic.


How many states will ban abortion? It’s unlikely to be a federal ban, so what is to stop West Virginia women from crossing into Virginia or Maryland to get abortions. Wham, suddenly your ban is ineffective for the same reason as state bans on assault weapons.
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Postby San Lumen » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:50 am

Imperial Old Mexico wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
Indeed, unless there are specific reasons why America is different in this regard from other countries, we can assume that similar policies will have similar effects.

And last I checked, American women are not different from women in the rest of the world.

But I am welcome to do more research on that topic.


How many states will ban abortion? It’s unlikely to be a federal ban, so what is to stop West Virginia women from crossing into Virginia or Maryland to get abortions. Wham, suddenly your ban is ineffective for the same reason as state bans on assault weapons.


There is nothing that can stop them. Its fair to say a number of them will.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:51 am

Imperial Old Mexico wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
Indeed, unless there are specific reasons why America is different in this regard from other countries, we can assume that similar policies will have similar effects.

And last I checked, American women are not different from women in the rest of the world.

But I am welcome to do more research on that topic.


How many states will ban abortion? It’s unlikely to be a federal ban, so what is to stop West Virginia women from crossing into Virginia or Maryland to get abortions. Wham, suddenly your ban is ineffective for the same reason as state bans on assault weapons.

What stops people from travelling long distances for medical procedures? Uh, lack of time, lack of money, lack of support, lack of transportation. A person cannot simply will themselves to another state.
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Spirit of Hope
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Postby Spirit of Hope » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:54 am

Imperial Old Mexico wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
Indeed, unless there are specific reasons why America is different in this regard from other countries, we can assume that similar policies will have similar effects.

And last I checked, American women are not different from women in the rest of the world.

But I am welcome to do more research on that topic.


How many states will ban abortion? It’s unlikely to be a federal ban, so what is to stop West Virginia women from crossing into Virginia or Maryland to get abortions. Wham, suddenly your ban is ineffective for the same reason as state bans on assault weapons.


Right, cause its so easy to travel out of say, Texas, to another state that does allow abortions, spend the couple of days required, and then travel back. Don't forget this entire time your missing work so you aren't getting paid and your job may just decode to fire you since you aren't around.

I mean sure the rich and middle class can do that, but not anyone in the lower income. Which also happens to be the group that is least able to afford hospital care for a birth. So its again punishing the poor for being poor.

Plus of course that an abortion ban is easy to get around isn't a good argument to alow one in the first place.
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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:57 am

Imperial Old Mexico wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
Indeed, unless there are specific reasons why America is different in this regard from other countries, we can assume that similar policies will have similar effects.

And last I checked, American women are not different from women in the rest of the world.

But I am welcome to do more research on that topic.


How many states will ban abortion? It’s unlikely to be a federal ban, so what is to stop West Virginia women from crossing into Virginia or Maryland to get abortions. Wham, suddenly your ban is ineffective for the same reason as state bans on assault weapons.


My ban? :o
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Postby Imperial Old Mexico » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:59 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Imperial Old Mexico wrote:
How many states will ban abortion? It’s unlikely to be a federal ban, so what is to stop West Virginia women from crossing into Virginia or Maryland to get abortions. Wham, suddenly your ban is ineffective for the same reason as state bans on assault weapons.


My ban? :o


A figure of speech. Not yours in a literal sense.
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Imperial Old Mexico
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Postby Imperial Old Mexico » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:02 am

Spirit of Hope wrote:
Imperial Old Mexico wrote:
How many states will ban abortion? It’s unlikely to be a federal ban, so what is to stop West Virginia women from crossing into Virginia or Maryland to get abortions. Wham, suddenly your ban is ineffective for the same reason as state bans on assault weapons.


Right, cause its so easy to travel out of say, Texas, to another state that does allow abortions, spend the couple of days required, and then travel back. Don't forget this entire time your missing work so you aren't getting paid and your job may just decode to fire you since you aren't around.

I mean sure the rich and middle class can do that, but not anyone in the lower income. Which also happens to be the group that is least able to afford hospital care for a birth. So its again punishing the poor for being poor.

Plus of course that an abortion ban is easy to get around isn't a good argument to alow one in the first place.


Obviously it will stop the poor. My point is that it won’t stop everyone. Not even the lower middle class if they’re a short drive away. My point is that it doesn’t do what its proponents claim, namely save every unborn child.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:11 am

San Lumen wrote:
Imperial Old Mexico wrote:
How many states will ban abortion? It’s unlikely to be a federal ban, so what is to stop West Virginia women from crossing into Virginia or Maryland to get abortions. Wham, suddenly your ban is ineffective for the same reason as state bans on assault weapons.


There is nothing that can stop them. Its fair to say a number of them will.

There's nothing that can stop them if all you're thinking about is whether there'll be armed guards at the state border. There are lots of things that can stop them if you actually think practically about what's involved in travelling to another state for a medical procedure.
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:14 am

Ifreann wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
There is nothing that can stop them. Its fair to say a number of them will.

There's nothing that can stop them if all you're thinking about is whether there'll be armed guards at the state border. There are lots of things that can stop them if you actually think practically about what's involved in travelling to another state for a medical procedure.


Im not saying it wouldn't be difficult for many but there is nothing a state can legally do to prevent a woman from crossing borders to get an abortion.

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Postby The Blaatschapen » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:19 am

Imperial Old Mexico wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
My ban? :o


A figure of speech. Not yours in a literal sense.


Good.

Because I am not in favour of any kind of abortion ban :)
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Postby Alvecia » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:19 am

Ifreann wrote:
Imperial Old Mexico wrote:
How many states will ban abortion? It’s unlikely to be a federal ban, so what is to stop West Virginia women from crossing into Virginia or Maryland to get abortions. Wham, suddenly your ban is ineffective for the same reason as state bans on assault weapons.

What stops people from travelling long distances for medical procedures? Uh, lack of time, lack of money, lack of support, lack of transportation. A person cannot simply will themselves to another state.

I always think of that annecdote from an abortion clinic nurse on a report John Oliver did.
She claims she had a call from a woman who wanted an abortion but was unable to make it to the clinic for many of the above reasons so she asked of the nurse
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Libertarians
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Postby Libertarians » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:23 am

Does anyone else read articles like this from yesterday and wonder why these people seem to avoid very easy solutions to the problem in front of them?

The left has been in an absolute panic for three years now since Kavanaugh was appointed that Roe would be overturned as the constitution does not really address everything that went into the Roe decision, so the decision has been at risk of being overturned from the outset due to it being somewhat of a stretch to start with. What if that panic and effort had been funneled into an abortion amendment effort to just permit the right to an abortion and say life begins at birth in a new amendment to the Constitution? That solves the problem and provides a solid foundation for Roe. State by state polling showed in the past slightly more than 12 states likely have voters that favor abortion, but it is very close. Why not try?

There's a real dishonesty to the Democrat position in that it has been foreseeable honestly since the 2016 election, but certainly since 2018 that we were headed in a direction that was not good for Roe's chances to stand, and exactly zero effort was put in to reversing that or providing support for a right to the abortion in the text of the constitution. At least, IMO. I think if the party were being honest, it strongly hopes Roe is overturned because power is far more important to the Democrats than whatever they've said they believe in. The two party system, man. :(

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:27 am

You need 2/3rds of the states and the congress to pass an amendment. Which is physically impossible in the current political atmosphere.
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Postby Vassenor » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:29 am

Libertarians wrote:Does anyone else read articles like this from yesterday and wonder why these people seem to avoid very easy solutions to the problem in front of them?

The left has been in an absolute panic for three years now since Kavanaugh was appointed that Roe would be overturned as the constitution does not really address everything that went into the Roe decision, so the decision has been at risk of being overturned from the outset due to it being somewhat of a stretch to start with. What if that panic and effort had been funneled into an abortion amendment effort to just permit the right to an abortion and say life begins at birth in a new amendment to the Constitution? That solves the problem and provides a solid foundation for Roe. State by state polling showed in the past slightly more than 12 states likely have voters that favor abortion, but it is very close. Why not try?

There's a real dishonesty to the Democrat position in that it has been foreseeable honestly since the 2016 election, but certainly since 2018 that we were headed in a direction that was not good for Roe's chances to stand, and exactly zero effort was put in to reversing that or providing support for a right to the abortion in the text of the constitution. At least, IMO. I think if the party were being honest, it strongly hopes Roe is overturned because power is far more important to the Democrats than whatever they've said they believe in. The two party system, man. :(


And how do you get a constutional amentment through when the GOP is doing everything it can to get Abortion banned regardless of what voters want?
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:30 am

Vassenor wrote:
Libertarians wrote:Does anyone else read articles like this from yesterday and wonder why these people seem to avoid very easy solutions to the problem in front of them?

The left has been in an absolute panic for three years now since Kavanaugh was appointed that Roe would be overturned as the constitution does not really address everything that went into the Roe decision, so the decision has been at risk of being overturned from the outset due to it being somewhat of a stretch to start with. What if that panic and effort had been funneled into an abortion amendment effort to just permit the right to an abortion and say life begins at birth in a new amendment to the Constitution? That solves the problem and provides a solid foundation for Roe. State by state polling showed in the past slightly more than 12 states likely have voters that favor abortion, but it is very close. Why not try?

There's a real dishonesty to the Democrat position in that it has been foreseeable honestly since the 2016 election, but certainly since 2018 that we were headed in a direction that was not good for Roe's chances to stand, and exactly zero effort was put in to reversing that or providing support for a right to the abortion in the text of the constitution. At least, IMO. I think if the party were being honest, it strongly hopes Roe is overturned because power is far more important to the Democrats than whatever they've said they believe in. The two party system, man. :(


And how do you get a constutional amentment through when the GOP is doing everything it can to get Abortion banned regardless of what voters want?


You would never get the required two thirds majority.

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Spirit of Hope
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Postby Spirit of Hope » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:31 am

Libertarians wrote:Does anyone else read articles like this from yesterday and wonder why these people seem to avoid very easy solutions to the problem in front of them?

The left has been in an absolute panic for three years now since Kavanaugh was appointed that Roe would be overturned as the constitution does not really address everything that went into the Roe decision, so the decision has been at risk of being overturned from the outset due to it being somewhat of a stretch to start with. What if that panic and effort had been funneled into an abortion amendment effort to just permit the right to an abortion and say life begins at birth in a new amendment to the Constitution? That solves the problem and provides a solid foundation for Roe. State by state polling showed in the past slightly more than 12 states likely have voters that favor abortion, but it is very close. Why not try?

There's a real dishonesty to the Democrat position in that it has been foreseeable honestly since the 2016 election, but certainly since 2018 that we were headed in a direction that was not good for Roe's chances to stand, and exactly zero effort was put in to reversing that or providing support for a right to the abortion in the text of the constitution. At least, IMO. I think if the party were being honest, it strongly hopes Roe is overturned because power is far more important to the Democrats than whatever they've said they believe in. The two party system, man. :(


Have fun getting an abortion ammendment passed. You would need a 2/3rds vote in the senate or a by a call of 2/3rds of the state legislators. Pro abortion has never had 2/3rds of the senate or 2/3rds of the state legislators.
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:34 am

Vassenor wrote:
Libertarians wrote:Does anyone else read articles like this from yesterday and wonder why these people seem to avoid very easy solutions to the problem in front of them?

The left has been in an absolute panic for three years now since Kavanaugh was appointed that Roe would be overturned as the constitution does not really address everything that went into the Roe decision, so the decision has been at risk of being overturned from the outset due to it being somewhat of a stretch to start with. What if that panic and effort had been funneled into an abortion amendment effort to just permit the right to an abortion and say life begins at birth in a new amendment to the Constitution? That solves the problem and provides a solid foundation for Roe. State by state polling showed in the past slightly more than 12 states likely have voters that favor abortion, but it is very close. Why not try?

There's a real dishonesty to the Democrat position in that it has been foreseeable honestly since the 2016 election, but certainly since 2018 that we were headed in a direction that was not good for Roe's chances to stand, and exactly zero effort was put in to reversing that or providing support for a right to the abortion in the text of the constitution. At least, IMO. I think if the party were being honest, it strongly hopes Roe is overturned because power is far more important to the Democrats than whatever they've said they believe in. The two party system, man. :(


And how do you get a constutional amentment through when the GOP is doing everything it can to get Abortion banned regardless of what voters want?

Distract them by hanging up a big "Happy Holidays" sign somewhere?
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Postby Antipatros » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:36 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:You need 2/3rds of the states and the congress to pass an amendment. Which is physically impossible in the current political atmosphere.

Especially for an issue that's divisive, like abortion.

I don't even think you could get a constitutional amendment passed for something that is broadly agreed upon. The political culture is too dysfunctional and polarized to even do that.

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Postby Elwher » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:40 am

Antipatros wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:You need 2/3rds of the states and the congress to pass an amendment. Which is physically impossible in the current political atmosphere.

Especially for an issue that's divisive, like abortion.

I don't even think you could get a constitutional amendment passed for something that is broadly agreed upon. The political culture is too dysfunctional and polarized to even do that.


The last one certainly took a goodly amount of time to pass, over 200 years.
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Postby Apocalyptic Haven » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:42 am

Elwher wrote:
Antipatros wrote:Especially for an issue that's divisive, like abortion.

I don't even think you could get a constitutional amendment passed for something that is broadly agreed upon. The political culture is too dysfunctional and polarized to even do that.


The last one certainly took a goodly amount of time to pass, over 200 years.


Congressional pay raise restrictions, iirc.
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Postby Apocalyptic Haven » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:43 am

Ifreann wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
And how do you get a constutional amentment through when the GOP is doing everything it can to get Abortion banned regardless of what voters want?

Distract them by hanging up a big "Happy Holidays" sign somewhere?


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Postby Sundiata » Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:46 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Libertarians wrote:Does anyone else read articles like this from yesterday and wonder why these people seem to avoid very easy solutions to the problem in front of them?

The left has been in an absolute panic for three years now since Kavanaugh was appointed that Roe would be overturned as the constitution does not really address everything that went into the Roe decision, so the decision has been at risk of being overturned from the outset due to it being somewhat of a stretch to start with. What if that panic and effort had been funneled into an abortion amendment effort to just permit the right to an abortion and say life begins at birth in a new amendment to the Constitution? That solves the problem and provides a solid foundation for Roe. State by state polling showed in the past slightly more than 12 states likely have voters that favor abortion, but it is very close. Why not try?

There's a real dishonesty to the Democrat position in that it has been foreseeable honestly since the 2016 election, but certainly since 2018 that we were headed in a direction that was not good for Roe's chances to stand, and exactly zero effort was put in to reversing that or providing support for a right to the abortion in the text of the constitution. At least, IMO. I think if the party were being honest, it strongly hopes Roe is overturned because power is far more important to the Democrats than whatever they've said they believe in. The two party system, man. :(


And how do you get a constutional amentment through when the GOP is doing everything it can to get Abortion banned regardless of what voters want?

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:You need 2/3rds of the states and the congress to pass an amendment. Which is physically impossible in the current political atmosphere.

Spirit of Hope wrote:
Libertarians wrote:Does anyone else read articles like this from yesterday and wonder why these people seem to avoid very easy solutions to the problem in front of them?

The left has been in an absolute panic for three years now since Kavanaugh was appointed that Roe would be overturned as the constitution does not really address everything that went into the Roe decision, so the decision has been at risk of being overturned from the outset due to it being somewhat of a stretch to start with. What if that panic and effort had been funneled into an abortion amendment effort to just permit the right to an abortion and say life begins at birth in a new amendment to the Constitution? That solves the problem and provides a solid foundation for Roe. State by state polling showed in the past slightly more than 12 states likely have voters that favor abortion, but it is very close. Why not try?

There's a real dishonesty to the Democrat position in that it has been foreseeable honestly since the 2016 election, but certainly since 2018 that we were headed in a direction that was not good for Roe's chances to stand, and exactly zero effort was put in to reversing that or providing support for a right to the abortion in the text of the constitution. At least, IMO. I think if the party were being honest, it strongly hopes Roe is overturned because power is far more important to the Democrats than whatever they've said they believe in. The two party system, man. :(


Have fun getting an abortion ammendment passed. You would need a 2/3rds vote in the senate or a by a call of 2/3rds of the state legislators. Pro abortion has never had 2/3rds of the senate or 2/3rds of the state legislators.


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