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[Abortion Thread] (POLL 4) A compromising position...

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What would you consider to be the best 'compromise'?

Reduce abortions with welfare supports / other non-invasive measures, leave access untouched.
132
33%
Set conditions under which abortions can be accessed.
83
21%
Allow free access, under a given time limit.
38
9%
Allow free access, but give men an option to excuse themselves from child support.
40
10%
HELL WITH COMPROMISE, IT'S MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY!
86
21%
Look out! They're here! Pink Elephants on Parade! Here they come, hippity hoppity!
22
5%
 
Total votes : 401

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GENSOC
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Postby GENSOC » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:21 am

Vassenor wrote:So if women are to be required to give birth in the US are they still going to be charged six figure sums for the birth?

Especially if they want to hold their new child after delivery.

Without a doubt.
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Restored England
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Postby Restored England » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:29 am

GENSOC wrote:
Vassenor wrote:So if women are to be required to give birth in the US are they still going to be charged six figure sums for the birth?

Especially if they want to hold their new child after delivery.

Without a doubt.


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Rifts Earth
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Postby Rifts Earth » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:42 am

Spirit of Hope wrote:
Elwher wrote:
Perhaps not over half, but Obergefell v. Hodges overturning Baker v. Nelson might qualify as might West Coast Hotel v. Parrish, which overturned Lochner v. New York and Adkins v. Children's Hospital, allowing minimum wage and weekly hours legislation to proceed.

Obergefell was a SCOTUS decision, Baker was a state court one. The difference was if gay marriage was a federal issue, which it had become because some states were allowing it and others were not. This was not the case in Baker.

Coast Hotel is a better example, but happened a decade after the initial decision and not 40+.

Arlenton wrote:Caetano v. Massachusetts of 2016 overruled a 1939 ruling, United States v. Miller, that said certain firearms, in this case I think it was some form of shotgun, aren't protected under the 2nd Amendment. Caetano v. Massachusetts extended the 2nd Amendment to "all forms of bearable arms", overruling the 1939 ruling on an issue that changed a major right for the entire population.


It narrowly expanded an already existing right. Not a great comparison.

Also Miller was a shit decision since the Plantif didn't make a legal argument since he nor his lawyer were present for the case.

Also if SCOTUS overturns Roe by deciding that the right to privacy doesn't exist it threatens for more than abortion rights, but also allow states to ban contraceptives and sodomy.


Excellent.

None of those things were ever "rights," save in the sense that owning black people was a "right" back in 1800.
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Limonovshchina
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Postby Limonovshchina » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:53 am

Rifts Earth wrote:
Spirit of Hope wrote:Obergefell was a SCOTUS decision, Baker was a state court one. The difference was if gay marriage was a federal issue, which it had become because some states were allowing it and others were not. This was not the case in Baker.

Coast Hotel is a better example, but happened a decade after the initial decision and not 40+.



It narrowly expanded an already existing right. Not a great comparison.

Also Miller was a shit decision since the Plantif didn't make a legal argument since he nor his lawyer were present for the case.

Also if SCOTUS overturns Roe by deciding that the right to privacy doesn't exist it threatens for more than abortion rights, but also allow states to ban contraceptives and sodomy.


Excellent.

None of those things were ever "rights," save in the sense that owning black people was a "right" back in 1800.

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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:15 pm

Rifts Earth wrote:
Spirit of Hope wrote:Obergefell was a SCOTUS decision, Baker was a state court one. The difference was if gay marriage was a federal issue, which it had become because some states were allowing it and others were not. This was not the case in Baker.

Coast Hotel is a better example, but happened a decade after the initial decision and not 40+.



It narrowly expanded an already existing right. Not a great comparison.

Also Miller was a shit decision since the Plantif didn't make a legal argument since he nor his lawyer were present for the case.

Also if SCOTUS overturns Roe by deciding that the right to privacy doesn't exist it threatens for more than abortion rights, but also allow states to ban contraceptives and sodomy.


Excellent.

None of those things were ever "rights," save in the sense that owning black people was a "right" back in 1800.


It also allows forced organ and blood harvesting. Which I am not against myself; but most "pro-life" people in this topic tend to believe only women have a duty to offer the use of their body to save lives.
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Postby Thermodolia » Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:27 pm

Vassenor wrote:So if women are to be required to give birth in the US are they still going to be charged six figure sums for the birth?

Especially if they want to hold their new child after delivery.

Unfortunately yes. Though we should be providing free healthcare, prevention and rehabilitation for criminals, and killing the death penalty as that’s truely pro life but the current pro life movement is run by a bunch of people who think free healthcare is evil, locking up people is good for their pockets, and that state sanctioned murder is just fine
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Rifts Earth
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Postby Rifts Earth » Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:34 pm

The Alma Mater wrote:
Rifts Earth wrote:
Excellent.

None of those things were ever "rights," save in the sense that owning black people was a "right" back in 1800.


It also allows forced organ and blood harvesting. Which I am not against myself; but most "pro-life" people in this topic tend to believe only women have a duty to offer the use of their body to save lives.

Considering the problems that organ shortages cause, I'd be willing to allow the government to harvest organs from any deceased person whose religion is silent on the treatment of corpses. So you couldn't do it to a Muslim, but you would be able to do it to an atheist.

Also, I would say that putting scare quotes around the name of my movement and implying that we're a bunch of misogynist would constitute flame baiting.
Last edited by Rifts Earth on Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Christianity has endured through 2,000 years, often in spite of active persecution and civilizational collapse.

Every humanist ideology since the so-called "enlightenment" has collapsed within a century.

Who do you think is going to survive when (not if) the West - and modernity as we know it - suffers systemic collapse? Your tribe? Or mine?

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Fauzjhia
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Postby Fauzjhia » Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:48 pm

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Why would people elect Democrats to protect abortion rights when the Democratic Party doesn't want to protect abortion rights?


Because the viable alternative is even less likely to protect abortion rights :(



Democrats want to protect abortions.
you forget multiple mechanism like filibuster.

Thermodolia wrote:
Vassenor wrote:So if women are to be required to give birth in the US are they still going to be charged six figure sums for the birth?

Especially if they want to hold their new child after delivery.

Unfortunately yes. Though we should be providing free healthcare, prevention and rehabilitation for criminals, and killing the death penalty as that’s truely pro life but the current pro life movement is run by a bunch of people who think free healthcare is evil, locking up people is good for their pockets, and that state sanctioned murder is just fine


the pro-life is not in favor of life. its about moralisation
like Machiavel said once, the church is the ultimate moral decline
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Rifts Earth
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Postby Rifts Earth » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:15 pm

Fauzjhia wrote:the pro-life is not in favor of life. its about moralisation

False. I see our society engages in mass murder on a scale that dwarves that of even the worst of the fascists. That is why I am pro life. I don't want to shove women back into the kitchen. I just want them to stop hiring hitmen to murder their own flesh and blood.
Christianity has endured through 2,000 years, often in spite of active persecution and civilizational collapse.

Every humanist ideology since the so-called "enlightenment" has collapsed within a century.

Who do you think is going to survive when (not if) the West - and modernity as we know it - suffers systemic collapse? Your tribe? Or mine?

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Limonovshchina
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Postby Limonovshchina » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:18 pm

Rifts Earth wrote:
Fauzjhia wrote:the pro-life is not in favor of life. its about moralisation

False. I see our society engages in mass murder on a scale that dwarves that of even the worst of the fascists. That is why I am pro life. I don't want to shove women back into the kitchen. I just want them to stop hiring hitmen to murder their own flesh and blood.

Murder would apply only if the victim is a person, which a fetus is not.
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American Legionaries
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Postby American Legionaries » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:22 pm

Limonovshchina wrote:
Rifts Earth wrote:False. I see our society engages in mass murder on a scale that dwarves that of even the worst of the fascists. That is why I am pro life. I don't want to shove women back into the kitchen. I just want them to stop hiring hitmen to murder their own flesh and blood.

Murder would apply only if the victim is a person, which a fetus is not.


It is though.

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Isles of Eamhna
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Postby Isles of Eamhna » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:22 pm

Rifts Earth wrote:I see our society engages in mass murder on a scale that dwarves that of even the worst of the fascists. That is why I am pro life. I don't want to shove women back into the kitchen. I just want them to stop hiring hitmen to murder their own flesh and blood.

cool, still going to
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Restored England
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Postby Restored England » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:23 pm

Since we aren't certain when fetus becomes a person, shouldn't we give the mothers the benefit of the doubt in determining these matters, preferably after consulting physicians?

We know that women are people, whatever my issues with them lately. We don't know that fetuses are people yet, at least in terms of sapience or sentience.
Last edited by Restored England on Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:24 pm

Rifts Earth wrote:
Fauzjhia wrote:the pro-life is not in favor of life. its about moralisation

False. I see our society engages in mass murder on a scale that dwarves that of even the worst of the fascists. That is why I am pro life. I don't want to shove women back into the kitchen. I just want them to stop hiring hitmen to murder their own flesh and blood.


You just want women robbed of agency and turned into glorified broodmares.
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Isles of Eamhna
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Postby Isles of Eamhna » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:26 pm

Restored England wrote:Since we aren't certain when fetus becomes a person

It is wholly irrelevant whether the foetus is a person; that should have no bearing on one's right to terminate one's pregnancy.
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Limonovshchina
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Postby Limonovshchina » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:26 pm

American Legionaries wrote:
Limonovshchina wrote:Murder would apply only if the victim is a person, which a fetus is not.


It is though.

Personhood begins at birth, so no.

Restored England wrote:Since we aren't certain when fetus becomes a person

It becomes a person when it ceases to be a fetus, that is, when it is born.
Last edited by Limonovshchina on Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:26 pm

Rifts Earth wrote:
Fauzjhia wrote:the pro-life is not in favor of life. its about moralisation

False. I see our society engages in mass murder on a scale that dwarves that of even the worst of the fascists. That is why I am pro life. I don't want to shove women back into the kitchen. I just want them to stop hiring hitmen to murder their own flesh and blood.

It isn't murder.

American Legionaries wrote:
Limonovshchina wrote:Murder would apply only if the victim is a person, which a fetus is not.


It is though.

It isn't murder, and nor is it a person.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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Postby American Legionaries » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:28 pm

Limonovshchina wrote:
American Legionaries wrote:
It is though.

Personhood begins at birth, so no.

Restored England wrote:Since we aren't certain when fetus becomes a person

It becomes a person when it ceases to be a fetus, that is, when it is born.


That just like, your opinion man.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:29 pm

American Legionaries wrote:
Limonovshchina wrote:Personhood begins at birth, so no.


It becomes a person when it ceases to be a fetus, that is, when it is born.


That just like, your opinion man.

No it isn't, under the way the law works the fetus is not considered to be a person.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
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Fauzjhia
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Postby Fauzjhia » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:31 pm

American Legionaries wrote:
Limonovshchina wrote:Personhood begins at birth, so no.


It becomes a person when it ceases to be a fetus, that is, when it is born.


That just like, your opinion man.


pregnancy does not always end with birth
Are we going to claim that Miscarriage is an accidental homicide.

and once women gives birth, where is the Pro-life care for life ? healthcare right, protection from pollution and etc.
its nowhere because pro-life is about moralization, not protecting life.
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Limonovshchina
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Postby Limonovshchina » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:33 pm

American Legionaries wrote:
Limonovshchina wrote:Personhood begins at birth, so no.


It becomes a person when it ceases to be a fetus, that is, when it is born.


That just like, your opinion man.

You can feel free to define personhood in any ass-backwards way you like which would degrade the personhood of actual people in the process. That just means you should have no say in the matter, because it is ass-backwards. You can say animals are people, or mushrooms are people, or rocks or some random item. Fortunately no one else has to or should have to care about your opinion on what people are.
The YEVRAZ (Young Eurasian Valiant Revolutionary Autonomous Zones) or the Limonovshchina is a series of authoritarian communist, patriotic socialist and revolutionary nationalist territories across Europe, Russia, Central Asia and the Caucasus in rebellion against EU, NATO, CIS and their respective national governments. It is inspired by national bolshevism and eurasianism of Karl-Otto Paetel, Eduard Limonov and Alexander Dugin and led by the National Bolshevik Party of Eurasia or NBPE.
Call me Limon. Juche Gang. Stalin did nothing wrong. I am a national communist, socialist patriot, revolutionary republican, state atheist and anthropocentric.
This nation is a hilarious exaggeration of my political beliefs and so does not represent them.

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Restored England
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Postby Restored England » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:34 pm

Fauzjhia wrote:
American Legionaries wrote:
That just like, your opinion man.


pregnancy does not always end with birth
Are we going to claim that Miscarriage is an accidental homicide.

and once women gives birth, where is the Pro-life care for life ? healthcare right, protection from pollution and etc.
its nowhere because pro-life is about moralization, not protecting life.


Current American laws often see women arrested and jailed for having miscarriages. No joke, dudes. I'm somewhat red-pilled on some issues, but not enough to advocate policies that jail a woman for something that her own body does to her without consulting her.
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Fauzjhia
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Postby Fauzjhia » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:36 pm

Restored England wrote:
Fauzjhia wrote:
pregnancy does not always end with birth
Are we going to claim that Miscarriage is an accidental homicide.

and once women gives birth, where is the Pro-life care for life ? healthcare right, protection from pollution and etc.
its nowhere because pro-life is about moralization, not protecting life.


Current American laws often see women arrested and jailed for having miscarriages. No joke, dudes. I'm somewhat red-pilled on some issues, but not enough to advocate policies that jail a woman for something that her own body does to her without consulting her.



Woah, I really though the laws where a bit more comprehensive.
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American Legionaries
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Postby American Legionaries » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:37 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
American Legionaries wrote:
That just like, your opinion man.

No it isn't, under the way the law works the fetus is not considered to be a person.


Okay, it's his, your, and the government's opinion in some circumstances.

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Restored England
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Postby Restored England » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:38 pm

Fauzjhia wrote:
Restored England wrote:
Current American laws often see women arrested and jailed for having miscarriages. No joke, dudes. I'm somewhat red-pilled on some issues, but not enough to advocate policies that jail a woman for something that her own body does to her without consulting her.



Woah, I really though the laws where a bit more comprehensive.


I'm admittedly no feminist, but even I think that these laws are punitive and extreme.
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