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What if England never existed?

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:52 am

I mean if you view colonialism as an emergent system brought about by material circumstance and economic interest, not all that much would change except Welsh (Well, Brythonic) would be the major world language.

The UK would still be a European Island uniquely positioned to disproportionately prosper from the colonialism era.

With Bretons owning England *And* Wales, it may even be more stable and positioned to unite the other celts on the Island. With less home issues, it might be more powerful.

If you're suggesting the anglo-saxons are rebuffed, you've also got to contend with Britannia being the last surviving Roman province and how that would impact their identity and imperial ambitions.

Potentially we'd see a lot more interference in the Mediterranean and closer ties with the Byzantines during the early through late middle ages, and the occasional British Emperor trying to reclaim western rome.

I suspect that wouldn't go well, though maybe the Byzantines might fare a little better under those circumstances unless they end up being dragged into Britannian quagmires trying to seize France and so on.

But when you get to the colonial era, not much changes except the UK is more united and has less domestic turbulence.

----


The other scenarios are that Wessex falls to the Great Heathen Army or some such, in which case you've basically got the same as above, but now with Scandinavia as the hub of the British Empire, again potentially strengthening it, especially given the assimilation of the celts the vikings were a little better at than the anglo-saxons. Ultimately though I suspect that centre of power would move to the British Isles, albeit Scandinavianized.

Alternatively, Wessex simply fails to unite the Heptarchy. *This* is the one that dramatically shifts power away from the UK and toward competitors. The ramifications are enormous.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:01 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Atheris
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Postby Atheris » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:57 am

How would England not exist, though? What changes? William the Conqueror loses at Hastings, letting Harold Godwinson maintain his control over the Kingdom? The islands simply never exist?
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:59 am

Atheris wrote:How would England not exist, though? What changes? William the Conqueror loses at Hastings, letting Harold Godwinson maintain his control over the Kingdom? The islands simply never exist?


The only means I can see are;

The anglo-saxons are rebuffed and Bretons continue to rule the area.

Or;

Wessex falls to the Great Heathen Army, and England becomes the Danelaw;

Or;

Wessex fails to unite the Heptarchy in the wake of the viking invasions, and England remains a collection of petty kingdoms.
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There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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The Restored Danelaw
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Postby The Restored Danelaw » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:00 am

Atheris wrote:How would England not exist, though? What changes? William the Conqueror loses at Hastings, letting Harold Godwinson maintain his control over the Kingdom? The islands simply never exist?

They mean the Anglo-Saxons don't migrate to the island for some inexplicable reason.
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June 14, 2021
Yorwick Daily: Kingly Heere takes Sanct James. Nahowland gives up the Crig in Miscitoland after nearly half a year of fighting. | Spanning breaks out between the Gemeanwealth and China when HMS Siegfried sinks down 3 Chineish boats wrongfully sailing in Angledanish waters near Eadwardhaven. | OFN's General Forsamling sheds to 'deal with the Crisis in Indey'. Japan, the Danelaw, New England give the Farmers' regearing in Indey a Lastsay until July 1 to give up to the Regearingstrue in Hyderabad "or else." | Gang Shao, China's President comes out ill with a deadly shape of forstanderscrab. Loremen warn that an Eld of Criglords may be forthcoming in China if Shao dies before naming an erfollower.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:01 am

The Restored Danelaw wrote:
Atheris wrote:How would England not exist, though? What changes? William the Conqueror loses at Hastings, letting Harold Godwinson maintain his control over the Kingdom? The islands simply never exist?

They mean the Anglo-Saxons don't migrate to the island for some inexplicable reason.


Or migrate and are rebuffed.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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The Restored Danelaw
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Postby The Restored Danelaw » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:01 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Atheris wrote:How would England not exist, though? What changes? William the Conqueror loses at Hastings, letting Harold Godwinson maintain his control over the Kingdom? The islands simply never exist?


The only means I can see are;

The anglo-saxons are rebuffed and Bretons continue to rule the area.

Or;

Wessex falls to the Great Heathen Army, and England becomes the Danelaw;

Or;

Wessex fails to unite the Heptarchy in the wake of the viking invasions, and England remains a collection of petty kingdoms.

Or they just decide to name it differently? Saxeland sounds cool.
The Danelaw
June 14, 2021
Yorwick Daily: Kingly Heere takes Sanct James. Nahowland gives up the Crig in Miscitoland after nearly half a year of fighting. | Spanning breaks out between the Gemeanwealth and China when HMS Siegfried sinks down 3 Chineish boats wrongfully sailing in Angledanish waters near Eadwardhaven. | OFN's General Forsamling sheds to 'deal with the Crisis in Indey'. Japan, the Danelaw, New England give the Farmers' regearing in Indey a Lastsay until July 1 to give up to the Regearingstrue in Hyderabad "or else." | Gang Shao, China's President comes out ill with a deadly shape of forstanderscrab. Loremen warn that an Eld of Criglords may be forthcoming in China if Shao dies before naming an erfollower.
Creds for the pfp goes to Rein

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The Restored Danelaw
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Postby The Restored Danelaw » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:04 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
The Restored Danelaw wrote:They mean the Anglo-Saxons don't migrate to the island for some inexplicable reason.


Or migrate and are rebuffed.
I'm not sure if that's historically feasible tbh. It's far more likely they (and other tribes after them) not migrate than it is for the Celts to continuously defeat their every attempt spanning through decades. At some point they'd get a stronghold, and after that it'd be game over for Celtic Britain.
Last edited by The Restored Danelaw on Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Danelaw
June 14, 2021
Yorwick Daily: Kingly Heere takes Sanct James. Nahowland gives up the Crig in Miscitoland after nearly half a year of fighting. | Spanning breaks out between the Gemeanwealth and China when HMS Siegfried sinks down 3 Chineish boats wrongfully sailing in Angledanish waters near Eadwardhaven. | OFN's General Forsamling sheds to 'deal with the Crisis in Indey'. Japan, the Danelaw, New England give the Farmers' regearing in Indey a Lastsay until July 1 to give up to the Regearingstrue in Hyderabad "or else." | Gang Shao, China's President comes out ill with a deadly shape of forstanderscrab. Loremen warn that an Eld of Criglords may be forthcoming in China if Shao dies before naming an erfollower.
Creds for the pfp goes to Rein

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Ostroeuropa
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:09 am

The Restored Danelaw wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Or migrate and are rebuffed.
I'm not sure if that's historically feasible tbh. It's far more likely they (and other tribes after them) not migrate than it is for the Celts to continuously defeat their every attempt spanning through decades. At some point they'd get a stronghold, and after that it'd be game over for Celtic Britain.


I think it would require some tinkering with the timeline, but it's feasible provided the collapse of Rome is better managed and Britannia arms itself prior to the collapse, or the migrations begin occurring later than the withdrawal of troops.

A strategic error on the part of the germanic invaders could have been enough. Had they decided "We shall go in 10 years" rather than "They have no professional army now that rome is withdrawn, we shall go now" it may have provided the celts sufficient time to prepare to rebuff them.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Ostroeuropa
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Posts: 58536
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:09 am

The Restored Danelaw wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
The only means I can see are;

The anglo-saxons are rebuffed and Bretons continue to rule the area.

Or;

Wessex falls to the Great Heathen Army, and England becomes the Danelaw;

Or;

Wessex fails to unite the Heptarchy in the wake of the viking invasions, and England remains a collection of petty kingdoms.

Or they just decide to name it differently? Saxeland sounds cool.


In Welsh, England is Saesneg. Because we didn't know at the time the Anglo part would be what everyone focused on, and we focused on the Saxon part.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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The Restored Danelaw
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Restored Danelaw » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:25 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
The Restored Danelaw wrote:I'm not sure if that's historically feasible tbh. It's far more likely they (and other tribes after them) not migrate than it is for the Celts to continuously defeat their every attempt spanning through decades. At some point they'd get a stronghold, and after that it'd be game over for Celtic Britain.


I think it would require some tinkering with the timeline, but it's feasible provided the collapse of Rome is better managed and Britannia arms itself prior to the collapse, or the migrations begin occurring later than the withdrawal of troops.

A strategic error on the part of the germanic invaders could have been enough. Had they decided "We shall go in 10 years" rather than "They have no professional army now that rome is withdrawn, we shall go now" it may have provided the celts sufficient time to prepare to rebuff them.

I'm like 90% sure the Anglo-Saxon migration was less a "free land, let's go in and dominate it" and more a series of "Free land! let's go there and life, I think Anglia sucks" happening throughout a few decades, and not a one-time thing. This, along with the fact that it was happening at the time Germanic tribes were migrating everywhere is why I doubt even an Anglo-Saxon failure would mean anything aside from other Germanic tribes taking over.
The Danelaw
June 14, 2021
Yorwick Daily: Kingly Heere takes Sanct James. Nahowland gives up the Crig in Miscitoland after nearly half a year of fighting. | Spanning breaks out between the Gemeanwealth and China when HMS Siegfried sinks down 3 Chineish boats wrongfully sailing in Angledanish waters near Eadwardhaven. | OFN's General Forsamling sheds to 'deal with the Crisis in Indey'. Japan, the Danelaw, New England give the Farmers' regearing in Indey a Lastsay until July 1 to give up to the Regearingstrue in Hyderabad "or else." | Gang Shao, China's President comes out ill with a deadly shape of forstanderscrab. Loremen warn that an Eld of Criglords may be forthcoming in China if Shao dies before naming an erfollower.
Creds for the pfp goes to Rein

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Free Ravensburg
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Postby Free Ravensburg » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:36 am

What about Yorkshire?

Or refer to my world map, but in the England part
Last edited by Free Ravensburg on Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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