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Shall China exist?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:32 pm
by Feline Goetland
As we all know, China exists. However shall it really happen? Any iteration of China in history has been a brutal entity that treats its own subjects as well as foreign peoples like shit. A typical regime change in China tends to be accompanied by a major depopulation. Moreover China historically conducted genocides that are so thorough that not enough survivors were left to condemn, let alone punish the perpetrators. Since China is so awful shall it be abolished and replaced by Korea-sized successor states that can ensure the existence of human rights and international norms?

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:25 am
by Glorious Hong Kong
I support China's right to exist as a nation-state, but I also support its Balkanization and the independence of many smaller countries such as Hong Kong, Macau, Tibet, East Turkestan, Inner Mongolia, and Taiwan. I pray for the CCP's demise every single day. I support the creation of a smaller, freer, more democratic China of which Hong Kong is not a constituent part. Only then can I say I'm proud to be Chinese without lying.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:25 am
by Page
The size of a state is not relevant to how well that state upholds human rights. Why would China breaking up into a bunch of small successor states be any less oppressive? The people of the Balkans were much better off under a united Yugoslavia. After it fell apart is when the war and killing started. Look at former Soviet States like Belarus and Turkmenistan which are significantly more totalitarian now.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:26 am
by Willtime
Feline Goetland wrote:As we all know, China exists. However shall it really happen? Any iteration of China in history has been a brutal entity that treats its own subjects as well as foreign peoples like shit. A typical regime change in China tends to be accompanied by a major depopulation. Moreover China historically conducted genocides that are so thorough that not enough survivors were left to condemn, let alone punish the perpetrators. Since China is so awful shall it be abolished and replaced by Korea-sized successor states that can ensure the existence of human rights and international norms?



Of course anyone who says himself(or herself)is a innocent person,is a murderer.
His(or Her) work is so thorough that not enough evidence are left.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:29 am
by Picairn
Yeah, because Balkanization of China has not led to civil wars and internal strife before... Every time a civil war happens in China, millions are dead with infrastructure greatly destroyed. I prefer a united but pacifist China than multiple authoritarian countries turning the whole of China into a giant warzone.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:32 am
by Feline Goetland
Page wrote:The size of a state is not relevant to how well that state upholds human rights. Why would China breaking up into a bunch of small successor states be any less oppressive? The people of the Balkans were much better off under a united Yugoslavia. After it fell apart is when the war and killing started. Look at former Soviet States like Belarus and Turkmenistan which are significantly more totalitarian now.


Do the people in what used to be Yugoslavia want to go back to a Third Yugoslavia? Do Slovenes and Croats want to pay taxes to Belgrade?

The main problem with having a huge China is that it is essentially impossible for outside forces to really enforce any kind of norm there. Hence ethnic cleansing and other atrocities are impossible to stop without a World War unlike atrocities in Uganda or Central African Republic for example. Same for Russia. The existence of the United States isn’t a problem though because there is federalism and that America itself is already sufficiently complex that different forces within it balances each other out.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:33 am
by Old Zealand Founder
Glorious Hong Kong wrote:I support China's right to exist as a nation-state, but I also support its Balkanization and the independence of many smaller countries such as Hong Kong, Macau, Tibet, East Turkestan, Inner Mongolia, and Taiwan. I pray for the CCP's demise every single day. I support the creation of a smaller, freer, more democratic China of which Hong Kong is not a constituent part. Only then can I say I'm proud to be Chinese without lying.

Is a self-sufficient Hong Kong possible? I mean, it certainly is - look at Singapore for example. But right now, what changes have to be made for a free Hong Kong?

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:33 am
by New Carthagea
A united China is preferable to that of a divided mess. The country should be way more devolved, though. Regions with unique cultural identities such as Tibet and East Turkestan must be given a fair degree of autonomy and the right to preserve their culture.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:34 am
by Willtime
Picairn wrote:Yeah, because Balkanization of China has not led to civil wars and internal strife before... Every time a civil war happens in China, millions are dead with infrastructure greatly destroyed. I prefer a united but pacifist China than multiple authoritarian countries turning the whole of China into a giant warzone.


War is hell.
————William Tecumseh Sherman

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:35 am
by Picairn
New Carthagea wrote:A united China is preferable to that of a divided mess. The country should be way more devolved, though. Regions with unique cultural identities such as Tibet and East Turkestan must be given a fair degree of autonomy and the right to preserve their culture.

I concur. Maybe a United States of China? Lol. :)

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:35 am
by Heloin
Do you know what shall means?

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:37 am
by Cantiron
no it should not it suppressing the rights of people in hong kong as well as cover ups like Tiananmen square and censoring several things like facebook and youtube they need to give more rights to the people as well as giving the people free speech

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:37 am
by Smenovekhovtia
As we all know, The United States exists. However shall it really happen? Any iteration of the US in history has been a brutal entity that treats its own subjects as well as foreign peoples like shit. A typical regime change in America tends to be accompanied by a major depopulation. Moreover the United States historically conducted genocides that are so thorough that not enough survivors were left to condemn, let alone punish the perpetrators. Since The United States is so awful shall it be abolished and replaced by Florida-sized successor states that can ensure the existence of human rights and international norms?

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:37 am
by New Carthagea
Smenovekhovtia wrote:As we all know, The United States exists. However shall it really happen? Any iteration of the US in history has been a brutal entity that treats its own subjects as well as foreign peoples like shit. A typical regime change in America tends to be accompanied by a major depopulation. Moreover the United States historically conducted genocides that are so thorough that not enough survivors were left to condemn, let alone punish the perpetrators. Since The United States is so awful shall it be abolished and replaced by Florida-sized successor states that can ensure the existence of human rights and international norms?


This.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:39 am
by USS Monitor
Yes, yes, mindless hatred of China is in vogue. That doesn't mean it's smart.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:40 am
by Feline Goetland
Picairn wrote:Yeah, because Balkanization of China has not led to civil wars and internal strife before... Every time a civil war happens in China, millions are dead with infrastructure greatly destroyed. I prefer a united but pacifist China than multiple authoritarian countries turning the whole of China into a giant warzone.


Given how older iterations of China works this is inevitable at some point but in addition to all the atrocities above and a 50% depopulation numerous WMDs will likely be released either by CCP or by the warlords, leading to chaos and deaths everywhere.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:40 am
by Smenovekhovtia
Smenovekhovtia wrote:As we all know, The United States exists. However shall it really happen? Any iteration of the US in history has been a brutal entity that treats its own subjects as well as foreign peoples like shit. A typical regime change in America tends to be accompanied by a major depopulation. Moreover the United States historically conducted genocides that are so thorough that not enough survivors were left to condemn, let alone punish the perpetrators. Since The United States is so awful shall it be abolished and replaced by Florida-sized successor states that can ensure the existence of human rights and international norms?



Just trying to remind everyone that the west is just as brutal if not more brutal

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:41 am
by Feline Goetland
Smenovekhovtia wrote:
Smenovekhovtia wrote:As we all know, The United States exists. However shall it really happen? Any iteration of the US in history has been a brutal entity that treats its own subjects as well as foreign peoples like shit. A typical regime change in America tends to be accompanied by a major depopulation. Moreover the United States historically conducted genocides that are so thorough that not enough survivors were left to condemn, let alone punish the perpetrators. Since The United States is so awful shall it be abolished and replaced by Florida-sized successor states that can ensure the existence of human rights and international norms?



Just trying to remind everyone that the west is just as brutal if not more brutal

The West (as well as Japan, Israel and other normal countries) at least treats its own ethnic/racial group much better than China which is precisely why China needs to be abolished. The more Chinese you are the worse China treats you.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:43 am
by Smenovekhovtia
Feline Goetland wrote:
Smenovekhovtia wrote:

Just trying to remind everyone that the west is just as brutal if not more brutal

The West at least treats its own people much better than China which is precisely why China needs to be abolished. The more Chinese you are the worse China treats you.

*Insert 300+ years of slavery and native american genocide*

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:43 am
by Picairn
Smenovekhovtia wrote:Just trying to remind everyone that the west is just as brutal if not more brutal

Stop. That is deflection. Create a new thread where you can spread your hatred about the West if you like, but we are talking about China here.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:44 am
by Feline Goetland
Smenovekhovtia wrote:
Feline Goetland wrote:The West at least treats its own people much better than China which is precisely why China needs to be abolished. The more Chinese you are the worse China treats you.

*Insert 300+ years of slavery and native american genocide*


I already explained it. European countries are at least good towards Europeans of the same ethnicity. Ideally a state should be nice to everyone. If this can not be achieved at least a state should be nice towards its ruling ethnic group (and that everyone needs to get an ethnostate to ensure good treatment). China is even worse since it does not even treat its own supposed ruling ethnic group well, let alone minorities such as Uyghurs.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:44 am
by Vivolkha
Page wrote:The size of a state is not relevant to how well that state upholds human rights. Why would China breaking up into a bunch of small successor states be any less oppressive? The people of the Balkans were much better off under a united Yugoslavia. After it fell apart is when the war and killing started. Look at former Soviet States like Belarus and Turkmenistan which are significantly more totalitarian now.

The Balkans degenerated into an unfortunate war, however now that that is sorted most if not all the Balkan countries have better human rights records than their communist predecessors. That doesn't mean in any way that the war had to happen or was worth it.

There is no way Belarus is as oppressive as the former USSR (save the Gorbachev era). In fact, I'd say of the post-Soviet states, only Turkmenistan and maybe Uzbekistan (keeping in mind the careful liberalization post-Karimov) actually compare.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:45 am
by Willtime
Old Zealand Founder wrote:
Glorious Hong Kong wrote:I support China's right to exist as a nation-state, but I also support its Balkanization and the independence of many smaller countries such as Hong Kong, Macau, Tibet, East Turkestan, Inner Mongolia, and Taiwan. I pray for the CCP's demise every single day. I support the creation of a smaller, freer, more democratic China of which Hong Kong is not a constituent part. Only then can I say I'm proud to be Chinese without lying.

Is a self-sufficient Hong Kong possible? I mean, it certainly is - look at Singapore for example. But right now, what changes have to be made for a free Hong Kong?


New water source,food source,and money source.
I know money source is hard to understand,I will try to explain it.
It means another way to be a important port.
In old time,HK is one of the few windows between China and other countries,nearly the only one.
And now,China is trying to build new windows,and HK needs to find new way to keep it important.
For now,some HKer try to keep it important in this way 'We are free,you cannot trust China!'
China is not so good to trust without reasons,of course.
But,can 'free countries' trust each other?

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:45 am
by Picairn
Smenovekhovtia wrote:*Insert 300+ years of slavery and native american genocide*

*insert 1000 years of Chinese colonization of Vietnam and numerous invasions and atrocities committed by its dynasties*

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:46 am
by Smenovekhovtia
Feline Goetland wrote:
Smenovekhovtia wrote:*Insert 300+ years of slavery and native american genocide*


I already explained it. European countries are at least good towards Europeans of the same ethnicity. Ideally a state should be nice to everyone. If this can not be achieved at least a state should be nice towards its ruling ethnic group (and that everyone needs to get an ethnostate to ensure good treatment). China is even worse.


Yeah, supporting ethnostates? Get the fuck outta here with the racist rhetoric