Shall China exist?

[Feline Goetland]

The former lol. I’m glad to be free from China haha.

Then why do you want to balkanize China? If you Southerners hate Beijing's authoritarianism, then the Northerners are no different.

This is starting to give me an awful lot of Civil War vibes, with the South claiming it was the "War of Northern Aggression," and whatnot.

What’s particularly funny is that my position is ironically similar to an alternative history US in which New England and New York et al seceded from US because the rest of US was not sufficiently anti-slavery and pro-industry. “Hell Britain and France have already gotten rid of slavery and we don’t want to look like backward peoples..”

[Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire]

Inconvenient truth: Germanic people were living in squalor and barbarism until about 400 years ago. Their success today is simply a product of the times and they are not a superior race.

No race is superior. Race doesn't even exist among humans.

That’s not even true. England had Magna Carta back in 1245 and Hanseatic League existed a long time ago. Of course if Northeast Asians had continuous contact with Europeans back then maybe we would have developed something similar at least in Japan but sadly it didn’t happen til Britain showed up in the 19th century. As for the Jewish people even Tacitus was bitter cuz they had money. Jews were objectively awesome, are objectively awesome and will be objectively awesome because they are Jews. There are only three kinds of people related to awesomeness of Jews, namely those who admit it, those ignorant of it and those bitter about it (these people are known as “antisemites” for they claim that Jewish success is due to conspiracy instead of inherent greatness of Jews, that is, antisemites are actually people with a strong inferior complex who already see the facts about Jewish greatness but can not emotionally accept it).

Egalitarianism is a comfortable lie. It’s probably better for you to claim to be a glorious Lebanese whose tribe gave birth to alphabets, Tyre, Sidon, Carthage, numerous prominent business people in Americas and Africa etc instead. From Phoenicians to Carlos Slim. The land of cedars was great, is great and will be great. Your problem seems to be that you don’t identify as either white or Lebanese, let alone both. You have been brainwashed into thinking that you are not as glorious as the Lebanese merchants in Brazil, Mexico, Nigeria and America. However that’s wrong and should be corrected.

Bruh "race realism" is the real lie here. No race is superior to others. I mean look at me, I'm just some American. Average. You would walk right by me on the street and not notice a single inherently distinguishing thing from myself that could somehow separate whatever culture I was born into (which I really had no choice in) from all the others.

[Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire]

Then why do you want to balkanize China? If you Southerners hate Beijing's authoritarianism, then the Northerners are no different.

This is starting to give me an awful lot of Civil War vibes, with the South claiming it was the "War of Northern Aggression," and whatnot.

What’s particularly funny is that my position is ironically similar to an alternative history US in which New England and New York et al seceded from US because the rest of US was not sufficiently anti-slavery and pro-industry.

Your position is more along the lines of historical revisionism (something I utterly despise), and possibly racialism.

[Kowani]

What’s particularly funny is that my position is ironically similar to an alternative history US in which New England and New York et al seceded from US because the rest of US was not sufficiently anti-slavery and pro-industry.

Your position is more along the lines of historical revisionism (something I utterly despise), and possibly racialism.

Ask him how he feels about black people lol

[Feline Goetland]

That’s not even true. England had Magna Carta back in 1245 and Hanseatic League existed a long time ago. Of course if Northeast Asians had continuous contact with Europeans back then maybe we would have developed something similar at least in Japan but sadly it didn’t happen til Britain showed up in the 19th century. As for the Jewish people even Tacitus was bitter cuz they had money. Jews were objectively awesome, are objectively awesome and will be objectively awesome because they are Jews. There are only three kinds of people related to awesomeness of Jews, namely those who admit it, those ignorant of it and those bitter about it (these people are known as “antisemites” for they claim that Jewish success is due to conspiracy instead of inherent greatness of Jews, that is, antisemites are actually people with a strong inferior complex who already see the facts about Jewish greatness but can not emotionally accept it).

Egalitarianism is a comfortable lie. It’s probably better for you to claim to be a glorious Lebanese whose tribe gave birth to alphabets, Tyre, Sidon, Carthage, numerous prominent business people in Americas and Africa etc instead. From Phoenicians to Carlos Slim. The land of cedars was great, is great and will be great. Your problem seems to be that you don’t identify as either white or Lebanese, let alone both. You have been brainwashed into thinking that you are not as glorious as the Lebanese merchants in Brazil, Mexico, Nigeria and America. However that’s wrong and should be corrected.

Bruh "race realism" is the real lie here. No race is superior to others. I mean look at me, I'm just some American. Average. You would walk right by me on the street and not notice a single inherently distinguishing thing from myself that could somehow separate whatever culture I was born into (which I really had no choice in) from all the others.

I disagree. If blank slatism were true Latin America and other places would not have been what they are today.

[Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire]

Bruh "race realism" is the real lie here. No race is superior to others. I mean look at me, I'm just some American. Average. You would walk right by me on the street and not notice a single inherently distinguishing thing from myself that could somehow separate whatever culture I was born into (which I really had no choice in) from all the others.

I disagree. If blank slatism were true Latin America and other places would not have been what they are today.

Latin America is crap only because the Spanish and Portuguese were particularly awful administrators and rulers towards their subjects, leaving their successor states in complete poverty.

[Feline Goetland]

Your position is more along the lines of historical revisionism (something I utterly despise), and possibly racialism.

Ask him how he feels about black people lol

I have disavowed East Kekistanism which itself is a form of Sinostatism.

Sub-Saharan Africans in fact serve some very important purposes that I previously overlooked. I would mention two: preservation of human gene pool and preventing extremism & statism. Eurasians in general have the tendency to commit statism, genocide and impose ideologies on everyone. However in any place that is even just 5% black China is already impossible to establish. This is why in the long run having Africans move to Guangzhou and Chinese “investment” in Africa are net positive. It sucks in resources from China that could have been used to oppress Uyghurs and other subjects and makes a population a lot more likely to rebel. Organized genocide in purely black Africa outside a few unusually organized cultures such as Great Lake ones (Rwanda and Burundi) is hard. (Darfurian genocide was committed by part Arab Sudanese against black tribes).

[Feline Goetland]

I disagree. If blank slatism were true Latin America and other places would not have been what they are today.

Latin America is crap only because the Spanish and Portuguese were particularly awful administrators and rulers towards their subjects, leaving their successor states in complete poverty.

What I’m saying is why exactly do Japanese and Middle Eastern immigrants and their descendants do well?

[Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire]

Latin America is crap only because the Spanish and Portuguese were particularly awful administrators and rulers towards their subjects, leaving their successor states in complete poverty.

What I’m saying is why exactly do Japanese and Middle Eastern immigrants and their descendants do well?

Because they didn't have crappy rulers. Japan had competent military rulers which gave way to the Imperial period (who themselves went on to briefly create a massive empire), while the Middle East was just lucky to (until the 20th century in Saudi Arabia) have competent rulers.

Also who knew that leaving a poor nation for a rich one led to higher rates of intellectualism.

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

Your position is more along the lines of historical revisionism (something I utterly despise), and possibly racialism.

He's already talked about how he thinks the Ashkenazim are the greatest ethnic group, how Chinese culture ought to be destroyed and explicitly rejected egalitarianism.

If that's not racialist, I don't know what it.

[Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire]

Your position is more along the lines of historical revisionism (something I utterly despise), and possibly racialism.

He's already talked about how he thinks the Ashkenazim are the greatest ethnic group, how Chinese culture ought to be destroyed and explicitly rejected egalitarianism.

If that's not racialist, I don't know what it.

Fair enough.

[Feline Goetland]

What I’m saying is why exactly do Japanese and Middle Eastern immigrants and their descendants do well?

Because they didn't have crappy rulers. Japan had competent military rulers which gave way to the Imperial period (who themselves went on to briefly create a massive empire), while the Middle East was just lucky to (until the 20th century in Saudi Arabia) have competent rulers.

Also who knew that leaving a poor nation for a rich one led to higher rates of intellectualism.

I mean Japanese and Middle Eastern immigrants in Latin America. Note that there was plenty of anti-Japanese racism in Brazil and Peru. That hasn’t prevented Japanese folks from thriving.

[Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire]

Because they didn't have crappy rulers. Japan had competent military rulers which gave way to the Imperial period (who themselves went on to briefly create a massive empire), while the Middle East was just lucky to (until the 20th century in Saudi Arabia) have competent rulers.

Also who knew that leaving a poor nation for a rich one led to higher rates of intellectualism.

I mean Japanese and Middle Eastern immigrants in Latin America. Note that there was plenty of anti-Japanese racism in Brazil and Peru. That hasn’t prevented Japanese folks from thriving.

There was sentiment, but never any official policies specifically targeting them.

[Feline Goetland]

I mean Japanese and Middle Eastern immigrants in Latin America. Note that there was plenty of anti-Japanese racism in Brazil and Peru. That hasn’t prevented Japanese folks from thriving.

There was sentiment, but never any official policies specifically targeting them.

What do you think happened during WWII? Peru deported lots of Japanese people to internment camps in US. However after the war the anomaly was corrected and Japanese people from Canada to Brazil thrived again. Just like numerous expulsions of Jews and pogroms the long-term harm to the Jewish community is about zero. Jews got the money they deserved back through participating in the economy of the new land while robbers lost what they didn’t deserve in awful investments or spending.

[Feline Goetland]

What exact crime any historical iteration of China commited mostly against its own subjects is Suzhou and Guangzhou responsible for? Did people from these cities order massacres of Dzungars or Hui Muslims? No. It is the statist northern China and its illiberal Confucian and statist traditions that are responsible for these things. I would rather have another Kingdom of Wu, Kingdom of Wuyue or its equivalents in the modern world than having to give a shit about Beijing (or Chang’an, Luoyang, Kaifeng or some other statist center).

Southern China is and was Confucian and Han, like it or not. Stop with this historical revisionism.

I don't want to get into a debate about what historical atrocities North and South China did, but let me just point out that the southern kingdoms weren't exactly blameless during the various periods of Chinese colonialization of Vietnam.

Even communists from places such as Zhejiang and Guangdong are less evil than communists from Northern China. Many people from my area still like Jiang Zemin who despite persecuting the Falun Gong did at least open China up and allowed it to develop. It is Xi Jinping who is terminally intolerable.

Once again, no evidence of this. Just more casual racism.

Ok I’m willing to have my region pay reparation to Vietnam and apologize for oppression in the Kingdom of Wu because yes that did happen. As for what regimes such as Nanyue did they should ask Cantonese for reparation.

No nation is blameless and I do think we should play by the same international laws and customs as other countries (as opposed to China).

[Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire]

There was sentiment, but never any official policies specifically targeting them.

What do you think happened during WWII? Peru deported lots of Japanese people to internment camps in US. However after the war the anomaly was corrected and Japanese people from Canada to Brazil thrived again. Just like numerous expulsions of Jews and pogroms the long-term harm to the Jewish community is about zero. Jews got the money they deserved back through participating in the economy of the new land while robbers lost what they didn’t deserve in awful investments or spending.

That plays right into my argument if anything. If we could correct the impact that colonialism had on Africa, for example, it'd be a much better place and would have more intellectuals than it does now (especially without all the civil wars and ethnic conflicts happening there).

Southern China is and was Confucian and Han, like it or not. Stop with this historical revisionism.

I don't want to get into a debate about what historical atrocities North and South China did, but let me just point out that the southern kingdoms weren't exactly blameless during the various periods of Chinese colonialization of Vietnam.



Once again, no evidence of this. Just more casual racism.

Ok I’m willing to pay reparation to Vietnam and apologize for oppression in the Kingdom of Wu.

See above. It's now clear that no race is superior to others, but being subjugated and conquered deteriorates them. Only be restoring them to their previous free positions could we truly see equality and justice for all

[Feline Goetland]

What do you think happened during WWII? Peru deported lots of Japanese people to internment camps in US. However after the war the anomaly was corrected and Japanese people from Canada to Brazil thrived again. Just like numerous expulsions of Jews and pogroms the long-term harm to the Jewish community is about zero. Jews got the money they deserved back through participating in the economy of the new land while robbers lost what they didn’t deserve in awful investments or spending.

That plays right into my argument if anything. If we could correct the impact that colonialism had on Africa, for example, it'd be a much better place and would have more intellectuals than it does now (especially without all the civil wars and ethnic conflicts happening there).

Ok I’m willing to pay reparation to Vietnam and apologize for oppression in the Kingdom of Wu.

See above. It's now clear that no race is superior to others, but being subjugated and conquered deteriorates them. Only be restoring them to their previous free positions could we truly see equality and justice for all

How are you supposed to correct it? Reparations don’t really work. Otherwise antisemitic plundering could have caused nations to be enriched. The genes, culture and wisdom of the Jews can not be taken away by their gentile neighbors and these are more important than actual money.

Sub-Saharan Africa before European colonialism already faced Middle Eastern colonialism. Why? Because as an isolated region (there is a reason why people are racially so different to the north and south of the Sahara, that is, some serious barrier does exist) it did not get Eurasian stuff. The disparity definitely began before even the first century. It did not start when Portuguese showed up in 15th century and sold a few slaves to Americas while leaving most of Sub-Saharan Africa uncolonized till 19th century.

[Galiosaire]

I support but China has to be a part of the Russian Federation.

[Arcanda]

"China is a legit country. However Tibet, East Turkestan etc should be independent and China proper needs to be run by some form of ROC."

Chang Kai-shek rolling in his grave at the sight of this.
But really, unless Russia, the US, most of Latin America, France and Canada are also broken up to make way for regional self-rule, China ought and shall continue to exist, whether the little guy finds it agreeable or not. Much more pressing issues in my part of the world for me to bother China anyway.

[Novus America]

"China is a legit country. However Tibet, East Turkestan etc should be independent and China proper needs to be run by some form of ROC."

Chang Kai-shek rolling in his grave at the sight of this.
But really, unless Russia, the US, most of Latin America, France and Canada are also broken up to make way for regional self-rule, China ought and shall continue to exist, whether the little guy finds it agreeable or not. Much more pressing issues in my part of the world for me to bother China anyway.

The US does have a huge degree of regional self rule already though. I agree I am not for “breaking up” China, but it absolutely would be better if it was a federal or confederal entity that respected local autonomy, freedom and culture, instead of ruled by the racist Han chauvinist Xi reich which is doing its best to ban local religion, language and identity.

[Novus America]

I support but China has to be a part of the Russian Federation.

Erm I am sure this is joking, but you do realize that this would just make a Russian federation in which Chinese are 90% of the population right? It would just make the Russian Federation the Chinese Federation.

[Arcanda]

"China is a legit country. However Tibet, East Turkestan etc should be independent and China proper needs to be run by some form of ROC."

Chang Kai-shek rolling in his grave at the sight of this.
But really, unless Russia, the US, most of Latin America, France and Canada are also broken up to make way for regional self-rule, China ought and shall continue to exist, whether the little guy finds it agreeable or not. Much more pressing issues in my part of the world for me to bother China anyway.

The US does have a huge degree of regional self rule already though. I agree I am not for “breaking up” China, but it absolutely would be better if it was a federal or confederal entity that respected local autonomy, freedom and culture, instead of ruled by the racist Han chauvinist Xi reich which is doing its best to ban local religion, language and identity.

I'd be careful comparing anything to the Third Reich. China is totalitarian, but unfortunately this regime is being supported by the Chinese themselves because of the success the CCP has had with the economy so far. One thing I noticed since the pandemic is the increasing number of people who hate China to such a degree they're sometimes asking for its total annihilation. Westerners are fond of comparing it with Nazi Germany, so I'd be called a Chamberlain, but in terms of scale and goals, this is completely different.

[Dogmeat]

Latin America is crap only because the Spanish and Portuguese were particularly awful administrators and rulers towards their subjects, leaving their successor states in complete poverty.

What I’m saying is why exactly do Japanese and Middle Eastern immigrants and their descendants do well?

They tend to be highly educated when the arrive in the US.

This is fairly straightforward. For instance: despite both being Southeast Asian, the Hmong and the Vietnamese have had very different trajectories upon arriving in the US. Largely due to the Hmong lacking education, or even basic literacy, even in their own language. Whereas the Vietnamese refugees were often university educated and multilingual.

[Novus America]

The US does have a huge degree of regional self rule already though. I agree I am not for “breaking up” China, but it absolutely would be better if it was a federal or confederal entity that respected local autonomy, freedom and culture, instead of ruled by the racist Han chauvinist Xi reich which is doing its best to ban local religion, language and identity.

I'd be careful comparing anything to the Third Reich. China is totalitarian, but unfortunately this regime is being supported by the Chinese themselves because of the success the CCP has had with the economy so far. One thing I noticed since the pandemic is the increasing number of people who hate China to such a degree they're sometimes asking for its total annihilation. Westerners are fond of comparing it with Nazi Germany, so I'd be called a Chamberlain, but in terms of scale and goals, this is completely different.

Erm the Nazi regime had widespread support amongst Germans too...
Due to the same things, economic gains, chest thumping revanchism and imperialism, propaganda and banning all opposition parties and media, and jailing/killing those who speak against the regime.
How is that different? The goals of “reuniting” “historically German/Chinese” lands, eliminating minority identities via forced sterilization, abduction of children, banning their languages, enslavement and concentration camps are basically the same goals.
Sure the PRC has not yet done something to the degree of the Holocaust, but that was really for a minority of time the regime was around, the mass killings in the death camps was from 1941 to around mid 1944, the Nazis did not have the deaths camps in the 30s. Still treated minorities badly.

The PRC’s increasing repression of minorities, as well as its claims to all “reunite”, “historic Chinese territory” at gun point strongly resemble Germany of the 1930s.

It is not identical but the parallels are remarkable.

Regardless a government that actually respects local autonomy and local culture would be nice, compared to the racist Han extremists who currently control the government, and want shut down minority languages, cultures and religions and toss them in “re-education” (concentration) camps.

[Vivolkha]

The US does have a huge degree of regional self rule already though. I agree I am not for “breaking up” China, but it absolutely would be better if it was a federal or confederal entity that respected local autonomy, freedom and culture, instead of ruled by the racist Han chauvinist Xi reich which is doing its best to ban local religion, language and identity.

I'd be careful comparing anything to the Third Reich. China is totalitarian, but unfortunately this regime is being supported by the Chinese themselves because of the success the CCP has had with the economy so far. One thing I noticed since the pandemic is the increasing number of people who hate China to such a degree they're sometimes asking for its total annihilation. Westerners are fond of comparing it with Nazi Germany, so I'd be called a Chamberlain, but in terms of scale and goals, this is completely different.

This.

Also, ironically, extreme hatred for the CCP abroad only boosts its domestic popularity, since it plays into its narrative of a China long victimized by foreign powers and restored to greatness by the current regime (and the same goes for Putin's Russia, by the way).