UK Politics Thread XIII: The Brexit Ship Departs

[The New California Republic]

...I'll mind not to forward your post to my mother, who regularly looks after my nephew, and a very good job she does of it too.

It's nothing to do with how good a job they do: grandparents have a pretty hard lower bound on their age, and therefore on their Covid-19 risk. My risk is dramatically lower than that. Forcing that care to be done by older, more vulnerable people is just silly.

They quite regularly see my sister and her partner anyway, so the risk isn't much different.

[The Huskar Social Union]

I genuinely despise boris. Look at the way he carries on here, absolute joke of a leader.

[The Free Joy State]

I genuinely despise boris. Look at the way he carries on here, absolute joke of a leader.

"Nuffin' to do wiv us, guv. Our total governmental incompetence has nuffin' to do wiv it, right? It's just we love democracy so damn much, geddit?"

Useless, buck-passing politician, unfit to be prime minister -- especially in times of crisis.

[Hirota]

what do you define as patriotism

It's irrelevant what Ostro defines Patriotism as, but entirely relevant what Starmer defines Patriotism as. So far it seems that to be patriotic, one simply needs to love the country - something that was perceived to be lacking in Labour in the past.

In that regard this might not even be a particularly large policy change - it isn't about adopting the same expressions of Patriotism that the right is more commonly associated with, but it seems to be more about celebrating the good things of the country and making Britain better rather than complaining how shit it is all the time. Which now I think about it makes perfect sense why the Momentum lot are so upset about being told their constant whining isn't helpful.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Hey guys, remember that ferry company that was contracted by Chris Grayling to help with brexit and trade despite having no ferries? Yeah well they went bust and owe 2 million pounds, mostly to creditors


I know that contract was cancelled from what i remember, but i still thought it would be worth sharing

[The New California Republic]

I genuinely despise boris. Look at the way he carries on here, absolute joke of a leader.

The rant about being a freedom-loving country, when that wasn't really the question he was asked, is a bit of a populist trope if I may say so. It's the sort of thing Trump would do.

[Hirota]

I just saw the new Spitting Image Trailer. Oooh boy it did make me chuckle

[Philjia]

what do you define as patriotism

It's irrelevant what Ostro defines Patriotism as, but entirely relevent what Starmer defines Patriotism as. So far it seems that to be patriotic, one simply needs to love the country - something that was perceived to be lacking in Labour in the past.

In that regard this might not even be a particularly large policy change - it isn't about adopting the same expressions of Patriotism that the right is more commonly associated with, but it seems to be more about celebrating the good things of the country and making Britain better rather than complaining how shit it is all the time. Which now I think about it makes perfect sense why the Momentum lot are so upset about being told their constant whining isn't helpful.

It's definitely an advantage for a party in a liberal democracy to be able to make the case that they want to improve the nation which they're running in out of a sense of love and duty to the country, since it'll play better than pure ethics with certain demographics and will only risk alienating people with a really fucked up relationship with the concept of Britain. It doesn't really do anything for me, but I'm only patriotic for Tyneside (And the rest of the North East to a lesser extent), not the country as a whole. Patriotism is also not nationalism, and people would do well to remember the difference. Wanting the best for your country does not mean disrespecting other countries, nor does it mean attempting to force people within this one to conform to a particular idea of "British" culture. Background, faith, sexuality, taste, none of these are relevant to whether one could be considered a patriot; all that is necessary is a desire to preserve and improve the nation that goes beyond one's own self interest.

[CoraSpia]

It's irrelevant what Ostro defines Patriotism as, but entirely relevent what Starmer defines Patriotism as. So far it seems that to be patriotic, one simply needs to love the country - something that was perceived to be lacking in Labour in the past.

In that regard this might not even be a particularly large policy change - it isn't about adopting the same expressions of Patriotism that the right is more commonly associated with, but it seems to be more about celebrating the good things of the country and making Britain better rather than complaining how shit it is all the time. Which now I think about it makes perfect sense why the Momentum lot are so upset about being told their constant whining isn't helpful.

It's definitely an advantage for a party in a liberal democracy to be able to make the case that they want to improve the nation which they're running in out of a sense of love and duty to the country, since it'll play better than pure ethics with certain demographics and will only risk alienating people with a really fucked up relationship with the concept of Britain. It doesn't really do anything for me, but I'm only patriotic for Tyneside (And the rest of the North East to a lesser extent), not the country as a whole. Patriotism is also not nationalism, and people would do well to remember the difference. Wanting the best for your country does not mean disrespecting other countries, nor does it mean attempting to force people within this one to conform to a particular idea of "British" culture. Background, faith, sexuality, taste, none of these are relevant to whether one could be considered a patriot; all that is necessary is a desire to preserve and improve the nation that goes beyond one's own self interest.

If you are patriotic towards the northeast, what is your opinion on Northumbrian independence?

[Philjia]

It's definitely an advantage for a party in a liberal democracy to be able to make the case that they want to improve the nation which they're running in out of a sense of love and duty to the country, since it'll play better than pure ethics with certain demographics and will only risk alienating people with a really fucked up relationship with the concept of Britain. It doesn't really do anything for me, but I'm only patriotic for Tyneside (And the rest of the North East to a lesser extent), not the country as a whole. Patriotism is also not nationalism, and people would do well to remember the difference. Wanting the best for your country does not mean disrespecting other countries, nor does it mean attempting to force people within this one to conform to a particular idea of "British" culture. Background, faith, sexuality, taste, none of these are relevant to whether one could be considered a patriot; all that is necessary is a desire to preserve and improve the nation that goes beyond one's own self interest.

If you are patriotic towards the northeast, what is your opinion on Northumbrian independence?

Independence is not in our best interest. This is not an age for rugged individualism. As the global superpowers vie for ever more power and we slip ever closer towards truly catastrophic consequences for our interference with the environment, no nation should be so reckless as to find itself standing alone.

[The New California Republic]

Exporters to the EU face 7,000-truck-long queues in Kent and two-day delays to trade after the Brexit transition period ends, the government has warned.

Imports will also be disrupted in January, according to a letter from cabinet minister Michael Gove to the freight industry, seen by BBC News.

It also raises the prospect of a winter spike in Covid-19 leading to absences of port and border staff.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54260470

[Philjia]

Exporters to the EU face 7,000-truck-long queues in Kent and two-day delays to trade after the Brexit transition period ends, the government has warned.

Imports will also be disrupted in January, according to a letter from cabinet minister Michael Gove to the freight industry, seen by BBC News.

It also raises the prospect of a winter spike in Covid-19 leading to absences of port and border staff.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54260470

I like that for months the freight industry has been warning that this is going to be a disaster and then Michael Gove's come back with "yes".

[The New California Republic]

Exporters to the EU face 7,000-truck-long queues in Kent and two-day delays to trade after the Brexit transition period ends, the government has warned.

Imports will also be disrupted in January, according to a letter from cabinet minister Michael Gove to the freight industry, seen by BBC News.

It also raises the prospect of a winter spike in Covid-19 leading to absences of port and border staff.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54260470

I like that for months the freight industry has been warning that this is going to be a disaster and then Michael Gove's come back with "yes".

Hauliers to government: "This is going to cause major problems."

Hauliers to government again: "This is going to cause major problems."

Hauliers to government yet again: "This is going to cause major problems."

Hauliers to government ad infinitum: "This is going to cause major problems."

Government to hauliers: "This is going to cause major problems."

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Exporters to the EU face 7,000-truck-long queues in Kent and two-day delays to trade after the Brexit transition period ends, the government has warned.

Imports will also be disrupted in January, according to a letter from cabinet minister Michael Gove to the freight industry, seen by BBC News.

It also raises the prospect of a winter spike in Covid-19 leading to absences of port and border staff.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54260470

I like that for months the freight industry has been warning that this is going to be a disaster and then Michael Gove's come back with "yes".

What an absolute dumpster fire of a government.

[CoraSpia]

I like that for months the freight industry has been warning that this is going to be a disaster and then Michael Gove's come back with "yes".

Hauliers to government: "This is going to cause major problems."

Hauliers to government again: "This is going to cause major problems."

Hauliers to government yet again: "This is going to cause major problems."

Hauliers to government ad infinitum: "This is going to cause major problems."

Government to hauliers: "This is going to cause major problems."

At least they agree

[Vassenor]

And honestly if you think the country isnt patriotic enough then your first action should really be to find out why. Not to just screech about how it needs to be pushed harder and how people who are done papering over the messier parts of our history hate the country somehow.

[Novus America]

It's irrelevant what Ostro defines Patriotism as, but entirely relevent what Starmer defines Patriotism as. So far it seems that to be patriotic, one simply needs to love the country - something that was perceived to be lacking in Labour in the past.

In that regard this might not even be a particularly large policy change - it isn't about adopting the same expressions of Patriotism that the right is more commonly associated with, but it seems to be more about celebrating the good things of the country and making Britain better rather than complaining how shit it is all the time. Which now I think about it makes perfect sense why the Momentum lot are so upset about being told their constant whining isn't helpful.

It's definitely an advantage for a party in a liberal democracy to be able to make the case that they want to improve the nation which they're running in out of a sense of love and duty to the country, since it'll play better than pure ethics with certain demographics and will only risk alienating people with a really fucked up relationship with the concept of Britain. It doesn't really do anything for me, but I'm only patriotic for Tyneside (And the rest of the North East to a lesser extent), not the country as a whole. Patriotism is also not nationalism, and people would do well to remember the difference. Wanting the best for your country does not mean disrespecting other countries, nor does it mean attempting to force people within this one to conform to a particular idea of "British" culture. Background, faith, sexuality, taste, none of these are relevant to whether one could be considered a patriot; all that is necessary is a desire to preserve and improve the nation that goes beyond one's own self interest.

But that is nationalism. Civic nationalism. Civic nationalism is a nationalism, even if it is different than cultural nationalism and ethnic nationalism.

[Novus America]

And honestly if you think the country isnt patriotic enough then your first action should really be to find out why. Not to just screech about how it needs to be pushed harder and how people who are done papering over the messier parts of our history hate the country somehow.

Completely missed they point. You got it so wrong you got it literally reversed.
The problem is not the country. The problem is a certain wing of the Labour Party!

The country is patriotic, but does not see the PARTY as sufficiently patriotic which is a big reason why the party loses, even when its domestic economic policies are more popular.

Thankfully Starmer gets it. I like the guy. I am not British but if I was I could vote for him, but never vote for Corbyn.

See to win elections you have to have people want to vote for you. If you are not what they want, people will not vote for you. Obviously Corbynism was not what enough Britons wanted. And why? It was not the economic policies, which were popular. If your economic policies are popular but you still lose, you are obviously doing something else very wrong.

The thing you seem to struggle with is that winning elections is not about forcing the people to believe what you believe, tow a certain line as blindly as you seem to do, it is presenting your beliefs in a way that appeals to people.

If the party line is not appealing to people, rather than sticking to it, change it.

Did you not read the BBC article?
"Part of the reason Labour won in 1945 was because it was seen as the party that was both patriotic but also had vision for a better Britain - not just proud but willing to act - to defend and change the country,"

The problem is not the country overall, the problem is in the party.

[Novus America]

Starmer and his crew pushing patriotism and arguing we need to put British interests first has set off the twitter mob.

The Labour reddits and forums are divided between people arguing this is pandering to the far-right and whining about colonialism/imperialism, saying britain is unlikable and we should be ashamed of it, saying patriotism is irrational and stupid (but their anti-patriotism somehow isn't), and people agreeing with Starmer and arguing that the former group needs to just cope and that they're absolutely toxic, the reason we keep losing and so on, as well as advancing arguments for patriotism etc.

It's a positive shift provided Starmer keeps at it. A good step in the right direction on sociocultural issues, my estimation of him has risen considerably.

And what do you define as patriotism and what makes enforcing it so vital?

Ostro’s pint is not that the party should enforce it, but that the party should show it.

The problem again is not in the people overall. It is in a certain part of the party.

The problem is, well to put no fine a point on it, the wing of the party who advocates in the way you often do.
Surely you realize that the way you are advocating things wins few over, and often in fact turns people away?

[The Huskar Social Union]

I just saw the new Spitting Image Trailer. Oooh boy it did make me chuckle

Well that trailer was certainly something.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

Irish sea border? Not ok, says government.

But one at the Kent border? A-ok!

[Ifreann]

A wild People's Republic of Kent appeared!

[Hurdergaryp]

A wild People's Republic of Kent appeared!

For the PRK to become a glorious reality, first you are going to need a Revolutionary War.

[Ifreann]

Hundreds of major and minor roads cross the Kent border. Doesn't seem practically possible for trucks to be stopped and their papers scrutinised at every one of them.

Hey, that's just like that other border!

[Novus America]

Hundreds of major and minor roads cross the Kent border. Doesn't seem practically possible for trucks to be stopped and their papers scrutinised at every one of them.

Hey, that's just like that other border!

Umm, not all borders are crossed by hundreds of roads.