UK Politics Thread XIII: The Brexit Ship Departs

[Ifreann]

New measures have been outlined in the Commons:
- All hospitality to close at 22:00
- Weddings must have 15 people present or fewer.
- Face masks will be compulsory for retail staff.
- Fines for rule breaking will increase.
- People should work from home if possible.

It won't really change much. As I said earlier: window dressing. A quick critique point by point:

• Earlier closing time will make a negligible different in my opinion.
• Big weddings have not been a primary catalyst for this rise, it's tertiary at best.
• The vast majority of retail staff I have seen, 95%+, use face masks anyway, so preaching to the choir.
• The fines won't likely be a deterrent because even the fines we have at the moment are not being enforced nearly enough.
• Working from home seems to still be quite popular, and people who can work from home already are, so telling them to do it won't make much difference.

A fixed rate fine just means that the behaviour in question is legal for the rich. Wasn't it Simon Cowell who'd flout the smoking ban and just pay the fines rather than suffer the inconvenience of walking outside?

[The Free Joy State]

It won't really change much. As I said earlier: window dressing. A quick critique point by point:

• Earlier closing time will make a negligible different in my opinion.
• Big weddings have not been a primary catalyst for this rise, it's tertiary at best.
• The vast majority of retail staff I have seen, 95%+, use face masks anyway, so preaching to the choir.
• The fines won't likely be a deterrent because even the fines we have at the moment are not being enforced nearly enough.
• Working from home seems to still be quite popular, and people who can work from home already are, so telling them to do it won't make much difference.

A fixed rate fine just means that the behaviour in question is legal for the rich. Wasn't it Simon Cowell who'd flout the smoking ban and just pay the fines rather than suffer the inconvenience of walking outside?

The fines really need to be set as a percentage of income, so that they bite but are not:
A. Unaffordable at the lower end of the economic spectrum
B. Loose change at the upper end of the economic spectrum.

Also, fines need to be actually enforced, so that those who are inclined to break the law don't feel they can do so with impunity.

I agree. The new steps are basically pointless.

Weddings aren't a major catalyst. The shop assistants in shops I go in always wear masks (if I see a member of staff not wearing a mask, I don't shop there), and most people already work from home when they can (in fact, it's this government that have been trying to -- as with the Civil Service -- push those who can work at home back to offices when they don't need to be there).

[Philjia]

Scotland is banning people from different households meeting inside. The measure was already in place in Glasgow but will now be extended to the whole country.

[The Nihilistic view]

It won't really change much. As I said earlier: window dressing. A quick critique point by point:

• Earlier closing time will make a negligible different in my opinion.
• Big weddings have not been a primary catalyst for this rise, it's tertiary at best.
• The vast majority of retail staff I have seen, 95%+, use face masks anyway, so preaching to the choir.
• The fines won't likely be a deterrent because even the fines we have at the moment are not being enforced nearly enough.
• Working from home seems to still be quite popular, and people who can work from home already are, so telling them to do it won't make much difference.

A fixed rate fine just means that the behaviour in question is legal for the rich. Wasn't it Simon Cowell who'd flout the smoking ban and just pay the fines rather than suffer the inconvenience of walking outside?

Maybe for the 0.001%. I don't think even people on £150k will fancy losing up to 10% of their post tax income on a fine.

[Vassenor]

Saw vague somethings about bringing in the military to supplement the police but I'm not sure what the context was.

[Ifreann]

Saw vague somethings about bringing in the military to supplement the police but I'm not sure what the context was.

Boris Johnson is presumably just trolling Huskar at this point.

[The Nihilistic view]

So question. Given all this opposition to fines displayed here should all fines for any crime be replaced with custodial sentences for fairness?

[CoraSpia]

So question. Given all this opposition to fines displayed here should all fines for any crime be replaced with custodial sentences for fairness?

What is the worst crime that requires a fine anyway? Most crimes that get you a fine (breaches of the covid regulations, speeding, drug possession) shouldn't even be crimes IMHO. I'm obviously excluding from that fines given out to large corporations since there's no other way of punishing a corporation save from completely banning its activities (google isn't going to prison.)

[Ifreann]

So question. Given all this opposition to fines displayed here should all fines for any crime be replaced with custodial sentences for fairness?

That has similar issues. A week's income lost while in prison could be a disaster for someone who's poor, just an inconvenience for someone who's rich.

[CoraSpia]

So question. Given all this opposition to fines displayed here should all fines for any crime be replaced with custodial sentences for fairness?

That has similar issues. A week's income lost while in prison could be a disaster for someone who's poor, just an inconvenience for someone who's rich.

Have you ever thought how stupid it is that people get fined or given short prison sentences for minor thefts (generally crimes of desperation?) It's only going to ensure there's a repeat.

[The Nihilistic view]

So question. Given all this opposition to fines displayed here should all fines for any crime be replaced with custodial sentences for fairness?

That has similar issues. A week's income lost while in prison could be a disaster for someone who's poor, just an inconvenience for someone who's rich.

So fines are actually better now because you won't lose your job like you probably would if you went to prison?

[The Nihilistic view]

So question. Given all this opposition to fines displayed here should all fines for any crime be replaced with custodial sentences for fairness?

What is the worst crime that requires a fine anyway? Most crimes that get you a fine (breaches of the covid regulations, speeding, drug possession) shouldn't even be crimes IMHO. I'm obviously excluding from that fines given out to large corporations since there's no other way of punishing a corporation save from completely banning its activities (google isn't going to prison.)

Right now? Going on a pub crawl with covid......

[Philjia]

So question. Given all this opposition to fines displayed here should all fines for any crime be replaced with custodial sentences for fairness?

What is the worst crime that requires a fine anyway? Most crimes that get you a fine (breaches of the covid regulations, speeding, drug possession) shouldn't even be crimes IMHO. I'm obviously excluding from that fines given out to large corporations since there's no other way of punishing a corporation save from completely banning its activities (google isn't going to prison.)

Criminal damage can get you a fine if you only cause minor damage. Speeding should absolutely be a crime, accidents do happen but travelling at a higher speed significantly increases the risk that the person you hit will die. Also, if speeding wasn't a crime, you'd get a mixture of people driving at responsible speeds and people driving at irresponsible speeds, which would cause more overtaking, which would make driving and walking in built up areas even more dangerous.

[The Nihilistic view]

What is the worst crime that requires a fine anyway? Most crimes that get you a fine (breaches of the covid regulations, speeding, drug possession) shouldn't even be crimes IMHO. I'm obviously excluding from that fines given out to large corporations since there's no other way of punishing a corporation save from completely banning its activities (google isn't going to prison.)

Criminal damage can get you a fine if you only cause minor damage. Speeding should absolutely be a crime, accidents do happen but travelling at a higher speed significantly increases the risk that the person you hit will die. Also, if speeding wasn't a crime, you'd get a mixture of people driving at responsible speeds and people driving at irresponsible speeds, which would cause more overtaking, which would make driving and walking in built up areas even more dangerous.

Yeah I'd say various driving offences are the worst crimes you can be fined for because of the potential danger you were to innocent pedestrians and other drivers.

[CoraSpia]

Criminal damage can get you a fine if you only cause minor damage. Speeding should absolutely be a crime, accidents do happen but travelling at a higher speed significantly increases the risk that the person you hit will die. Also, if speeding wasn't a crime, you'd get a mixture of people driving at responsible speeds and people driving at irresponsible speeds, which would cause more overtaking, which would make driving and walking in built up areas even more dangerous.

Yeah I'd say various driving offences are the worst crimes you can be fined for because of the potential danger you were to innocent pedestrians and other drivers.

I don't think we need them honestly. There is always a way that the victim can counteract that sort of crime.

[Ifreann]

That has similar issues. A week's income lost while in prison could be a disaster for someone who's poor, just an inconvenience for someone who's rich.

So fines are actually better now because you won't lose your job like you probably would if you went to prison?

No, fines and prison time have the same problem in that the a given punishment could be harsher for one person and more lenient for another.

[CoraSpia]

What is the worst crime that requires a fine anyway? Most crimes that get you a fine (breaches of the covid regulations, speeding, drug possession) shouldn't even be crimes IMHO. I'm obviously excluding from that fines given out to large corporations since there's no other way of punishing a corporation save from completely banning its activities (google isn't going to prison.)

Criminal damage can get you a fine if you only cause minor damage. Speeding should absolutely be a crime, accidents do happen but travelling at a higher speed significantly increases the risk that the person you hit will die. Also, if speeding wasn't a crime, you'd get a mixture of people driving at responsible speeds and people driving at irresponsible speeds, which would cause more overtaking, which would make driving and walking in built up areas even more dangerous.

Criminal damage should be a community service offence IMHO. It'll teach people the value of property and labour far more than a fine ever would.

[The New California Republic]

Scotland is banning people from different households meeting inside. The measure was already in place in Glasgow but will now be extended to the whole country.

There are only a few exceptions, such as grandparents looking after kids, and noncohabiting couples.

[CoraSpia]

Scotland is banning people from different households meeting inside. The measure was already in place in Glasgow but will now be extended to the whole country.

There are only a few exceptions, such as grandparents looking after kids, and noncohabiting couples.

So your trips to see the BF are allowed?

[The Nihilistic view]

Yeah I'd say various driving offences are the worst crimes you can be fined for because of the potential danger you were to innocent pedestrians and other drivers.

I don't think we need them honestly. There is always a way that the victim can counteract that sort of crime.

Well one day you might be that victim. And when you get hit by a car going 60 in a 30 you'll be that dead victim.

[CoraSpia]

I don't think we need them honestly. There is always a way that the victim can counteract that sort of crime.

Well one day you might be that victim.

Given I can't see that's made even more likely.

[The Nihilistic view]

So fines are actually better now because you won't lose your job like you probably would if you went to prison?

No, fines and prison time have the same problem in that the a given punishment could be harsher for one person and more lenient for another.

All punishment can be better or worse for an indervidual depending on all sorts of personal and emotional circumstances. The only equal treatment for convicted felons would be no punishments at all.

[The New California Republic]

There are only a few exceptions, such as grandparents looking after kids, and noncohabiting couples.

So your trips to see the BF are allowed?

Yes.

Yeah I'd say various driving offences are the worst crimes you can be fined for because of the potential danger you were to innocent pedestrians and other drivers.

I don't think we need them honestly. There is always a way that the victim can counteract that sort of crime.

...how can the victim of someone running a red light counteract the running of the red light when they are lying dead on the pavement?

[Oot Land]

Its because of refugees and immagration the Uk left the EU

[Vassenor]

Yeah I'd say various driving offences are the worst crimes you can be fined for because of the potential danger you were to innocent pedestrians and other drivers.

I don't think we need them honestly. There is always a way that the victim can counteract that sort of crime.

See, shit like this is why no-one takes Mendelsohnian Victimology seriously.