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UK Politics Thread XIII: The Brexit Ship Departs

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Who would you / will you vote for in the Scottish Parliament election?

SNP
16
23%
Conservative Party
12
17%
Labour Party
16
23%
Liberal Democrats
9
13%
Scottish Greens
6
8%
Mispronounced Alba Party
1
1%
Reform UK
5
7%
Other
6
8%
 
Total votes : 71

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The Notorious Mad Jack
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Founded: Nov 05, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Notorious Mad Jack » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:44 pm

SD_Film Artists wrote:
The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:Which opens a door to an even worse problem. What happens when a government has the ability to just remove from citizenship anyone who does something they don't like? Do you really think this government or any government won't abuse that power?


'something they don't like'- shameless, unrepentant treason. Being a bit coy aren't we?

If Begum is guilty of treason then put her on trial on it. Removing the citizenship of someone born here and stranding them in a prisoner of war camp with no recourse to appeal and no access to a fair hearing is not just, regardless of what someone has done.
The Nihilistic view wrote:
The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:Which opens a door to an even worse problem. What happens when a government has the ability to just remove from citizenship anyone who does something they don't like? Do you really think this government or any government won't abuse that power?


They can't unless they can argue that person has or is entitled to claim another nationality.

They did it anyway solely based on the belief that Begum was entitled to claim Bangladeshi citizenship, which she isn't.
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Fartsniffage
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Fartsniffage » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:54 pm

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:They did it anyway solely based on the belief that Begum was entitled to claim Bangladeshi citizenship, which she isn't.


She is. If the Bangladeshi government disagrees with that then she can go argue her case in court there. And then she would hang.

Sure does suck to be her....
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Salandriagado
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Posts: 22572
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:16 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
CoraSpia wrote:Is it a good precedent though? The people who spied for the soviet union were people who had clear-cut cases against them, we know what they had done and they'd have been carted off for a short trial and a long sentence upon landing.

But they didn't though, that's the point: if they had asked to get their UK citizenship back then I highly doubt they would have been allowed to.

CoraSpia wrote:I'm not sure what the threat is in giving her her day in court unless of course they're worried they don't have anything on her that would wash.

She was a member of a proscribed terrorist organization under counter-terror legislation. Trust me, they'd make that stick.


Which rather begs the question of why they aren't: if she's a threat, is she not less of a threat sitting in a British cell than at large and able to plan attacks?
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The Notorious Mad Jack
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Founded: Nov 05, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Notorious Mad Jack » Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:02 am

Fartsniffage wrote:
The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:They did it anyway solely based on the belief that Begum was entitled to claim Bangladeshi citizenship, which she isn't.


She is.
Not according to the Bangladeshi government.
If the Bangladeshi government disagrees with that then she can go argue her case in court there. And then she would hang.

Sure does suck to be her....

Alternatively, we could actually prove our commitment to the rule of law isn't just hollow fucking soundbites and allow her a fair hearing, regardless of what she's done.
Totally not MadJack, though I hear he's incredibly smart and handsome.

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The Nihilistic view
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby The Nihilistic view » Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:52 am

How about this, she can have the nationality Islamic State?
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Vassenor
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Vassenor » Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:17 am

NHS GP practice operator with 500,000 patients passes into hands of US health insurer

One of the UK’s biggest GP practice operators has quietly passed into the hands of the US health insurance group Centene Corporation, prompting calls for an official investigation into what campaigners claim is “privatisation of the NHS by stealth”.

The merger is expected to create the largest private supplier of GP services in the UK, with 58 practices covering half a million patients.

A coalition of doctors, campaigners and academics has voiced concerns in a letter sent this week to the health secretary, Matt Hancock, asking him to order an investigation by the Care Quality Commission.

Operose Health, a UK subsidiary of Centene, has recently taken over the privately owned AT Medics, which was set up in 2004 by six NHS GPs and runs 37 GP practices across 49 sites in London. Operose already operates 21 GP surgeries in England.

Objectors are concerned because they claim the change of control was approved for eight practices in the London boroughs of Camden, Islington and Haringey in a virtual meeting on 17 December that lasted less than nine minutes, during which no mention was made of Centene and not a single question was asked.

The approval was granted by the North Central London clinical commissioning group (NCL CCG), a local NHS body that purchases health services from GPs, hospitals and others using taxpayer funds.

The campaign group Keep Our NHS Public, Doctors in Unite, Allyson Pollock, a clinical professor of public health at Newcastle University, and others have written to Josephine Sauvage, the chair of NCL CCG, urging her to block the change of control at AT Medics, which has made £35m in profits over the last five years.

During the meeting on 17 December, AT Medics indicated there would be “no change to the board of directors,” according to the draft minutes of the event, which were approved last week.

However, despite this pledge, the change of control was effected when all six AT Medics directors resigned on 10 February, and three new directors were appointed, all of them also directors of Operose. The latter include Prof Nick Harding, who is Operose’s chief medical officer and a practising GP, and Samantha Jones, Operose’s chief executive and a former head of West Hertfordshire hospitals NHS trust.

The letter to Hancock said: “Whilst we imagine you will not be sympathetic to those of us who consider that US health insurers have no place in the provision of NHS services, we ask you to consider carefully the reasons for our request.

“Most of the CCGs have published nothing about this significant change, and held no meetings in public … This matter is an example of the privatisation of the NHS by stealth to which we have consistently drawn attention, and which you have, equally consistently, dismissed.”

Pollock told the Guardian: “What we’re really worried about is changes in the model of care and quality of service, especially in areas of high deprivation. Practices may employ fewer GPs – and they may bring in substitutes for GPs like pharmacists and nurses – there may be cuts in services and reduced access, for example, closures of branch surgeries.”

Operose confirmed the change of control, saying: “The care that we deliver to our patients and the services accessed through our surgeries will not change. We have followed all the required regulatory procedures, including obtaining consent from our CCGs. As a provider of NHS services, care remains free at the point of delivery. In addition, and as with all other GP services throughout the country, we will continue to be regulated and inspected by the Care Quality Commission.”

Operose said only those involved in delivering care had access to patients’ data, and that data would not be shared with with third parties unless obliged by UK law.

Liz Wise, the director of primary care and public health commissioning for the NHS in London, said: “The ownership of the holding company of AT Medics Ltd has been transferred after consent was given by the relevant commissioners. Patient Care remains unaffected by this change and patient data is protected.”

Frances O’Callaghan, North Central London CCG’s accountable officer, said there had been no legal or contractual basis for the CCG to reject the transfer of ownership, and doing so would have posed a risk to continuity of care.

“We followed a robust process to confirm that the transfer would not affect our patients, which included being assured regarding patient data protection. Twelve other London CCGs who commission AT Medics also considered and individually approved the transfer.”

The Department of Health and Social Care said the NHS had always involved a mixture of public and private provision, and it was not for sale to the private sector.


But remember, the government pinky-promised it wasn't selling off the NHS to private companies.
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The Huskar Social Union
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Huskar Social Union » Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:22 am

Fella shared this on the Northern Ireland subreddit, six years for a first rheumatology appointment

The state of the NHS in NI is an utter shambles, totally mismanaged and in need of more support. Shit like this is insane.
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The Blaatschapen
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Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:32 am

The Nihilistic view wrote:How about this, she can have the nationality Islamic State?


Would that imply that the UK recognizes the nation of Islamic State :o
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Fenwick Foundation
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Posts: 127
Founded: Oct 31, 2020
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Fenwick Foundation » Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:40 am

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/e ... ous-labour

Labour already has a distinctive economic position: it is the party of fiscal responsibility. I hope that the party will vote against the misguided and dangerous raise in corporation tax, which is exactly the kind of desperate pseudo-'populist' manoeuvre I would expect from a Conservative government leaking 2019 ex-Labour voters like a sieve. Houchen will get a freeport in Redka and pretend it's the levelling-up he demanded in his blog article.
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Vassenor
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Vassenor » Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:46 am

Fenwick Foundation wrote:https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2021/02/why-rishi-sunak-s-budget-will-be-politically-dangerous-labour

Labour already has a distinctive economic position: it is the party of fiscal responsibility. I hope that the party will vote against the misguided and dangerous raise in corporation tax, which is exactly the kind of desperate pseudo-'populist' manoeuvre I would expect from a Conservative government leaking 2019 ex-Labour voters like a sieve. Houchen will get a freeport in Redka and pretend it's the levelling-up he demanded in his blog article.


So what makes it dangerous to make corporations pay their fair share?
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Nevertopia
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Founded: May 27, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nevertopia » Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:53 am

Vassenor wrote:
Nevertopia wrote:...Why did the UK vote for Brexit? Its like knowingly shooting yourself in the foot, why are people surprised? What did they expect?


Because we were told repeatedly that none of this would happen and that any suggestion that it would was baseless scaremongering, and all the experts are lying and we're tired of those lies.

ah, so like corona-chan.
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Fenwick Foundation
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Founded: Oct 31, 2020
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Fenwick Foundation » Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:06 am

Vassenor wrote:
Fenwick Foundation wrote:https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2021/02/why-rishi-sunak-s-budget-will-be-politically-dangerous-labour

Labour already has a distinctive economic position: it is the party of fiscal responsibility. I hope that the party will vote against the misguided and dangerous raise in corporation tax, which is exactly the kind of desperate pseudo-'populist' manoeuvre I would expect from a Conservative government leaking 2019 ex-Labour voters like a sieve. Houchen will get a freeport in Redka and pretend it's the levelling-up he demanded in his blog article.


So what makes it dangerous to make corporations pay their fair share?

We are currently recovering from the worst economic contraction in this country's history. Raising corporation tax would endanger an economic recovery, which I'm already fairly pessimistic about. Right now we should be cutting taxes and raising spending. If we want to (eventually, lol, because an extra £20 billion from raising corporation tax won't make a dent) deal with the deficit, we need to be creating jobs and encouraging economic activity.
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The Huskar Social Union
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Huskar Social Union » Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:11 am

Anas Sarwar has just become the new Scottish labour leader i think.
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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:27 am

Fenwick Foundation wrote:deficit

Like Catiline and his unbridled audacity that swaggered about it's probs good for the planet and humanity as a whole to temper capitalism once in a while.

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The Huskar Social Union
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Huskar Social Union » Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:39 am

Social Democrats to explore options for growth in Northern Ireland

The first political party conference of the year has got under way with 700 delegates attending an online gathering of the Social Democrats on the theme of “Time to Transform”.

Opening night on Friday saw party delegates overwhelmingly back a motion to pursue options for growth in Northern Ireland.

It will set up a working group to explore all options, consult widely and prepare a report with recommendations for the next move, which may include a change in current policy not to contest elections there.


The Social Democrats are a smaller and relatively new left-wing political party in the Republic of Ireland and it seems they might be exploring possibilities of running in Northern Irish Elections.

They would be the fourth Fifth party to run in both the Republic and Northern Ireland if they went through with this, joining Sinn Fein, People Before Profit, The Greens and Aontu
Last edited by The Huskar Social Union on Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Echo Chamber Thought Police
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Ex-Nation

Postby Echo Chamber Thought Police » Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:43 am

Fartsniffage wrote:
The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:They did it anyway solely based on the belief that Begum was entitled to claim Bangladeshi citizenship, which she isn't.


She is. If the Bangladeshi government disagrees with that then she can go argue her case in court there. And then she would hang.

Sure does suck to be her....

Bangladesh does not have capital punishment for minors.
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Diahon
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Diahon » Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:43 am

Fenwick Foundation wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
So what makes it dangerous to make corporations pay their fair share?

We are currently recovering from the worst economic contraction in this country's history. Raising corporation tax would endanger an economic recovery, which I'm already fairly pessimistic about. Right now we should be cutting taxes and raising spending. If we want to (eventually, lol, because an extra £20 billion from raising corporation tax won't make a dent) deal with the deficit, we need to be creating jobs and encouraging economic activity.


you don't pay for basic public services by making those who can afford to pay taxes not pay them so they can maybe give to charity later as thanks

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Vassenor
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Vassenor » Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:44 am

Fenwick Foundation wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
So what makes it dangerous to make corporations pay their fair share?

We are currently recovering from the worst economic contraction in this country's history. Raising corporation tax would endanger an economic recovery, which I'm already fairly pessimistic about. Right now we should be cutting taxes and raising spending. If we want to (eventually, lol, because an extra £20 billion from raising corporation tax won't make a dent) deal with the deficit, we need to be creating jobs and encouraging economic activity.


And the wealth will trickle down soon, you'll see. :roll:
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Fenwick Foundation
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Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Fenwick Foundation » Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:05 am

Diahon wrote:
Fenwick Foundation wrote:We are currently recovering from the worst economic contraction in this country's history. Raising corporation tax would endanger an economic recovery, which I'm already fairly pessimistic about. Right now we should be cutting taxes and raising spending. If we want to (eventually, lol, because an extra £20 billion from raising corporation tax won't make a dent) deal with the deficit, we need to be creating jobs and encouraging economic activity.


you don't pay for basic public services by making those who can afford to pay taxes not pay them so they can maybe give to charity later as thanks

This has literally no relevance to the current situation or why corporation tax is being raised

Vassenor wrote:
Fenwick Foundation wrote:We are currently recovering from the worst economic contraction in this country's history. Raising corporation tax would endanger an economic recovery, which I'm already fairly pessimistic about. Right now we should be cutting taxes and raising spending. If we want to (eventually, lol, because an extra £20 billion from raising corporation tax won't make a dent) deal with the deficit, we need to be creating jobs and encouraging economic activity.


And the wealth will trickle down soon, you'll see. :roll:

Just because I recognise that raising taxes during an economic recovery would be a bad idea does not necessarily mean I subscribe to trickle-down economics, because I don't.
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Kowani
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:29 am

Fenwick Foundation wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
So what makes it dangerous to make corporations pay their fair share?

We are currently recovering from the worst economic contraction in this country's history. Raising corporation tax would endanger an economic recovery,

No. The best way to encourage a recovery is to raise aggregate demand. Because of the way wealth is distributed, raising corporate taxes at this juncture will have a minimal impact on that. Thanks to the pandemic, additionally, the economic activity of corporations is even more dependent on the ability of people to spend-which is extremely low.
which I'm already fairly pessimistic about. Right now we should be cutting taxes and raising spending.
Normally, cutting taxes for the average person would be a decent idea in a recession. But because incomes have fallen as a result of the pandemic, this no longer holds, and it’s impact on AD is minimal.

If we want to (eventually, lol, because an extra £20 billion from raising corporation tax won't make a dent) deal with the deficit,
The UK is a monetary sovereign. Deficits are something to encourage.
we need to be creating jobs and encouraging economic activity.

A corporate tax at this juncture will not negatively affect that.
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The Nihilistic view
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Postby The Nihilistic view » Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:37 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
The Nihilistic view wrote:How about this, she can have the nationality Islamic State?


Would that imply that the UK recognizes the nation of Islamic State :o


Now we are getting into the relms of how does a country become official? Taiwan? Palestine? If its not recognised does that mean it doesn't exist? Incidentally I wish Britain says was how the world worked.

No this is the principle of she thinks therefore she is. If she wanted to join IS that can be her own self appointed nationality and we can cease to call her British. Everyone's a winner!
Last edited by The Nihilistic view on Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, The Bahamas, Bahrain, Barbados, Belize, Botswana, Brunei, Bangladesh, Cook Islands, Canada, Cyprus, Dominica, Egypt, France, Fiji, The Gambia, Ghana, Grenada, Guyana, India, Israel, Iraq, Ireland, Jamaica, Jordan, Kenya, Kiribati, Kuwait, Lesotho, Malawi, Malaysia, Singapore, Maldives, Malta, Mauritius, Myanmar, Nauru, New Zealand, Niue, Namibia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saint Lucia, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Swaziland, Tanzania, Trinidad and Tobago, Tuvalu, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, United States, Vanuatu, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe are UNITED KINGDOM!!!
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The Nihilistic view
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Postby The Nihilistic view » Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:41 am

Vassenor wrote:
Fenwick Foundation wrote:https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2021/02/why-rishi-sunak-s-budget-will-be-politically-dangerous-labour

Labour already has a distinctive economic position: it is the party of fiscal responsibility. I hope that the party will vote against the misguided and dangerous raise in corporation tax, which is exactly the kind of desperate pseudo-'populist' manoeuvre I would expect from a Conservative government leaking 2019 ex-Labour voters like a sieve. Houchen will get a freeport in Redka and pretend it's the levelling-up he demanded in his blog article.


So what makes it dangerous to make corporations pay their fair share?


The part where all the big boys have crappy tax arrangements that we can't seem to close. So it's just another tax on the middle class that own small buisnesses.

The companies you actually want to pay this won't actually be paying it so you need to think again about how to tax them rather than increase taxes on the buisnesses that haven't been acting like twats the last year.
Last edited by The Nihilistic view on Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, The Bahamas, Bahrain, Barbados, Belize, Botswana, Brunei, Bangladesh, Cook Islands, Canada, Cyprus, Dominica, Egypt, France, Fiji, The Gambia, Ghana, Grenada, Guyana, India, Israel, Iraq, Ireland, Jamaica, Jordan, Kenya, Kiribati, Kuwait, Lesotho, Malawi, Malaysia, Singapore, Maldives, Malta, Mauritius, Myanmar, Nauru, New Zealand, Niue, Namibia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saint Lucia, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Swaziland, Tanzania, Trinidad and Tobago, Tuvalu, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, United States, Vanuatu, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe are UNITED KINGDOM!!!
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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:45 am

The Nihilistic view wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
Would that imply that the UK recognizes the nation of Islamic State :o


Now we are getting into the relms of how does a country become official? Taiwan? Palestine? If its not recognised does that mean it doesn't exist? Incidentally I wish Britain says was how the world worked.

No this is the principle of she thinks therefore she is. If she wanted to join IS that can be her own self appointed nationality and we can cease to call her British. Everyone's a winner!


The UK does decide on a regular basis which countries to recognize and which not, that's an individual country's prerogative. The government and the courts cannot both claim that IS is not a state, and also accepting that certain people have the nationality of said entity. Which is my point.

Personally I would say that IS is not recognized, but that also means that her claim of her nationality of IS doesn't hold up.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:53 am

SD_Film Artists wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:I would hope that nobody is under the illusion that she didn't defect to the enemy, as it is patently obvious that she very much did, and she is evasive as fuck regarding whether she is repentant or not. Not that the latter matters much though, as once someone defects they are damaged goods, pardon the turn of phrase.


I'm almost surprised that the government had to spell out the situation to the court of appeal when 'she joined IS' should have sufficed.

You're surprised that there are at least nominal protections for people against the power of the government?


The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
She is.
Not according to the Bangladeshi government.
If the Bangladeshi government disagrees with that then she can go argue her case in court there. And then she would hang.

Sure does suck to be her....

Alternatively, we could actually prove our commitment to the rule of law isn't just hollow fucking soundbites and allow her a fair hearing, regardless of what she's done.

Britain has proven its commitment to the rule of law. Its commitment is to talk a big game, but ultimately the government will do whatever it wants, law be damned.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Mask Wearing That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing
He/Him

You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

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Fenwick Foundation
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Posts: 127
Founded: Oct 31, 2020
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Fenwick Foundation » Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:00 am

Kowani wrote:
Fenwick Foundation wrote:We are currently recovering from the worst economic contraction in this country's history. Raising corporation tax would endanger an economic recovery,

No. The best way to encourage a recovery is to raise aggregate demand. Because of the way wealth is distributed, raising corporate taxes at this juncture will have a minimal impact on that. Thanks to the pandemic, additionally, the economic activity of corporations is even more dependent on the ability of people to spend-which is extremely low.
which I'm already fairly pessimistic about. Right now we should be cutting taxes and raising spending.
Normally, cutting taxes for the average person would be a decent idea in a recession. But because incomes have fallen as a result of the pandemic, this no longer holds, and it’s impact on AD is minimal.

If we want to (eventually, lol, because an extra £20 billion from raising corporation tax won't make a dent) deal with the deficit,
The UK is a monetary sovereign. Deficits are something to encourage.
we need to be creating jobs and encouraging economic activity.

A corporate tax at this juncture will not negatively affect that.

Not even wrong.
ALSO MUNKCESTRIAN REPUBIIC
FORMERLY MUNKCHESTER/MUNKCESTRIAN REPUBLIC

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